CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening - 😧

#101

Post by RustyIron »

Brock O Lee wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:50 pm
Interesting. How thick was the wire would you say? Any pictures of the damage?
I wasn't paying close attention to the wire... maybe solid 24 ga. The way it cut, it was probably stainless. No pictures of the damaged edge.

The takeaway from the earlier post is that you shouldn't go around hacking through stainless wire, and 15V doesn't seem too difficult to work with. I've yet to put an noteworthy edge on it yet, but I'll post again when I get around to it.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening - 😧

#102

Post by Deadboxhero »

Some advanced sharpening tips.

Dress the resin stones, remove the clogged metal on the surface. This will provide a cleaner cut bevel with less burnishing from clogged metal rubbing and preventing the surrounding diamond from interacting due to the clogged metal being taller causing the bevel to ride over the diamond on the clogged metal.

As you progress from each grit the knife should be sharp enough to cleanly slice paper. After each grit, draw the edge across the next grit and make a new burr and remove as much as possible on the stone before finishing on a strop.



Factory Edge is ~17dps

Durability starts at +20dps for any steel.


RustyIron wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:21 pm

Every new knife owner knows this day will come, but I didn't think it would be so soon. I got home last night, sat down, and removed everything from my pockets. I flicked open my knife in a manner that might have sent the knife flying across the room and most certainly took years off the life of the lock. I gave the edge a quick feel and... whaaaat? The edge wasn't as sharp as expected. I stuck the knife under the scope and found a 3/4" missing apex.

Then it hit me... while opening a gift and slicing a ribbon, I met resistance. The ribbon had two lengths of wire running through it. It was a ribbon, and I had a knife, so something had to give. I hacked through the ribbon and thought nothing more of it. And now I got to see what happens after CPM-15V cuts through wire.

The knife was certainly still usable, but now I had an excuse to rub the edge on some rocks. The stones were Edge Pro diamond matrix. I started with 80 grit to get the geometry close two where I wanted it, then 250 and 650 to pretty it up. If I had a goniometer, it come in at about 24 degrees. With a factory edge, it usually takes me a couple sharpenings before I get rid of the imperfections. The new Manix is no different. There's still some wonkiness near the tip and the heel, and one side should be taken down a little more. I can't see it with the naked eye, but I can feel that it's not as sharp as it should be, and the scope shows why. There's no sense in chasing the ghost right now. The knife is sharp enough for general purpose use. I'm sure within a week, the OCD will kick in and I'll refine the edge some more. I spent half an hour sharpening the knife--less time than it took to take the pictures and type this out.


Hogging down the edge
IMG_9387.jpeg


Diamonds on the 15V cut quickly, as one would expect
IMG_9386.jpeg


After half an hour I got bored. Good enough.
IMG_9388.jpeg


The other side isn't quite apexed, but I don't want to show the ugly side.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening - 😧

#103

Post by attila »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:42 am
Some advanced sharpening tips.

Dress the resin stones, remove the clogged metal on the surface. This will provide a cleaner cut bevel with less burnishing from clogged metal rubbing and preventing the surrounding diamond from interacting due to the clogged metal being taller causing the bevel to ride over the diamond on the clogged metal.
This is a great tip! For clarity, though, do you mean using a nagura stone or something else specifically?

Normally, I would clean loading off of my Venev diamond stones with a soapy finger, but I recently had the brainwave to use my old, neglected nagura stone. All I had handy in the moment was a chunk of broken 6000 grit Sigma Power Select II, which seemed to work fine in the interim, but I’ve since retrieved the nagura for future cleanings.

Thanks!
Have: old S30V Native, HAP40 Endura, ZDP DF2, S110V Manix LW, Cru-wear Para 3, SE H1 DF2, S90V Native 5, K390 Urban, SE Pac Salt, P.I.T.S., XHP Manix LW, SB Caly 3, B70P, PMA11, K03, Kapara, REX 45 Military, 154CM Manix LW, Swick, AEB-L Urban, KC Cruwear Manix, M390 PM2, Mantra 2, CruCarta Shaman, M390 Manix, K390 Police 4, S90V Manix LW, Rex 45 Manix LW, 20CV Manix, Rex 45 Lil’Native, Shaman, C208GP, Cruwear Manix, Cruwear Manix, M4 Chief, Z-max!!!

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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening - 😧

#104

Post by RustyIron »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:42 am
This will provide a cleaner cut bevel with less burnishing from clogged metal rubbing


Clogged stones burnishing rather than cutting? That's something that never even occurred to me. I'll admit that I'm a cheapskate and sometimes let my stones go a long time between cleaning.

You know how when you get a new knife, a new tool, or a new IDEA, that you can't wait to go try it on everything? I suspect that will be the case with "clean stones cutting more cleanly." It's supposed to rain a lot this week, so there will be plenty of time to rub my rocks.

Attila,
I used to use a flattening stone and the results were ok. When I jumped to a glass plate with aluminum oxide or silicon carbide, the results improved dramatically. I mean like REALLY dramatically.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening - 😧

#105

Post by attila »

RustyIron wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:14 am

Attila,
I used to use a flattening stone and the results were ok. When I jumped to a glass plate with aluminum oxide or silicon carbide, the results improved dramatically. I mean like REALLY dramatically.
Thanks. I do use a glass plate and loose grit SiC to flatten my stones but not to clean them. I’ve used barkeepers friend (BKF) to clean very effectively, but I can’t carry around a shaker can of BKF. :zany
Have: old S30V Native, HAP40 Endura, ZDP DF2, S110V Manix LW, Cru-wear Para 3, SE H1 DF2, S90V Native 5, K390 Urban, SE Pac Salt, P.I.T.S., XHP Manix LW, SB Caly 3, B70P, PMA11, K03, Kapara, REX 45 Military, 154CM Manix LW, Swick, AEB-L Urban, KC Cruwear Manix, M390 PM2, Mantra 2, CruCarta Shaman, M390 Manix, K390 Police 4, S90V Manix LW, Rex 45 Manix LW, 20CV Manix, Rex 45 Lil’Native, Shaman, C208GP, Cruwear Manix, Cruwear Manix, M4 Chief, Z-max!!!

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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#106

Post by Bemo »

Just so happened that I was watching a couple of Shawn's youtube videos this morning where he was sharpening Maxamet. He was using a nagura to clean off bonded diamond and CBN stones. So I would think that's acceptable unless in the last 3 years or so he's changed his mind. Funny thing on the videos, I watched the one with Michael Christy talking about sharpening Maxamet and how it's not that difficult and he didn't understand why other very skilled knife sharpers were having problems and then I immediately watched Shawn's video on Maxamet where he has metal flakes break off and uses a lot of very adult language. Looked like an anomaly though and Shawn got a hair whittling edge on it.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#107

Post by Bolster »

Hello--several months ago I contacted Konstantin at Gritomatic about keeping the Venev Orion bonded diamond stones flat and in good condition. Copy-paste what he wrote to me:

"First of all, never use other diamonds to lap or dress Venev diamonds (ANY diamonds). Venev diamonds can be lapped with loose silicon carbide powder on glass. You can watch how to do that here: <Lapping / flattening sharpening stones with silicon carbide and electro-corundum grains> https://youtu.be/MynRw3Y05qs The first step is coarse grit (#120 powder)The second step is fine grit (#220 for F400, #400 for F800 and above). Instead of lapping, you can dress Venev diamonds with soft dressing stone. Dressing is simpler than lapping but also improves the factory surface on the first use."

I received the following advice on BF from 777Edge:

"Your Venev stones will wear very slowly, so you won't need to flatten them very often at all...Don't bother flattening your Venev stones unless you can really see them starting to dish quite a lot (this will take years of non-professional sharpening though). Many guys tend to flatten their stones waaaayyy too often, and just end up wasting good stone surface away unnecessarily."

Also, these responses were interesting:

"For clearing the loaded dwarf, nothing works better and removes less material than a Magic Eraser. - Baron. So far, the magic eraser refreshes my Venev stones and it feels like new after a quick scrub — Chalby."


Just passing along info I've collected. I don't have enough experience with the Venev diamonds to form my own opinions.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#108

Post by RustyIron »


Yesterday's shabby edge touch up left me with an empty feeling inside. It was suitable for an everyday knife, but I didn't learn anything from the effort. The initial plan was to use the knife a little, then go at it again in a few days.

Sure, I could rein in my obsessiveness and stick to the plan, or I could do what a craftsman would have done in the first place and put a good edge on the knife. I got out my sharpening boxes, and the first thing I did was sprinkle Barkeepers Friend all over the diamond matrix stones. Then I got out a cheap diamond plate, which is the best tool for removing a lot of material in the shortest amount of time, except for maybe the bench grinder.

I quickly got the edge to the shape I wanted. I then took it through the progression of stones, down to 4000. That's when I took the pictures shown below. After the pictures, I stropped each side a couple times with 0.25 micron diamond juice on nanocloth. The edge is now pretty darned sharp.

Perhaps I don't have the finesse to properly evaluate the "sharpening experience" provided by 15V, but I found it not much different than K390 or REX45. It will form a burr when hogging off a lot of material with the coarse stones, but after that, burr formation is not a problem. I think it's easier to work with than S30V or VG-10.

How will it hold up under rigorous everyday usage such as opening the mail and slicing zucchini? Only time will tell.

IMG_9393.jpeg
IMG_9407.jpeg
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#109

Post by Wandering_About »

Took my 15V Manix to the stream for a fishing trip today. Naturally, I dropped it right in. Wiped it off, then cleaned and oiled it when I got home. No rust I can see, or even patina, but I didn't take it apart to check for anything internal.

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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#110

Post by kennbr34 »

Did a little edge-testing today.

I had previously reprofiled the factory edge to about 29 degrees inclusive. I went from a Atoma 140 grit, to a Shapton 120, Shapton 2k, and then to finish I went back down to a DMT 600 grit because it's my favorite hone.

The edge I started with was at a BESS score of about 150, and would easily pop arm hair and whittle beard hair. Now, my BESS tester is one of the earlier models that used a little plantern with a cup and would drop the thread down onto the knife fixed into a holder. It's much different than the current BESS testers with the clips of the disposable media, so there's a lot of variablity that can go into the numbers.

After 100 cuts of about 6-8" into corrugated cardboard, the BESS score increased to 202. It wouldn't whittle hair anymore but still shaved hair well and bit into fingerpads during a 3-finger test, and would easily sever a beard hair if I pressed the blade against the hair with my thumb as a backing.

After 200 cuts the BESS score stayed pretty much the same at 205 but I could feel it biting into my finger pads a little less and it would no longer sever a hair when pressed against my thumb.

After 300 cuts the BESS score was still at 204 and I noticed it took a little bit more force to shave arm hair, but still bit into finger pads during the 3-finger test just fine.

After 400 cuts, the BESS score was at 278 but I think this was a bit of an error as you'll see later. It would no longer shave arm hair at this point, but still bit into my finger pads.

After 500 cuts, the BESS score was at 250 and was still biting into finger pads.

After 600 cuts, the BESS score was at 260 and was starting to lose bite against my finger pads.

After 700 cuts, the BESS score was at 309 and it had a lot less bite into my finger pads, and I could notice it wasn't cutting the cardboard as well.

After 800 cuts the BESS score was at 298, and the bite into the finger pads took much more force, as well as did the cutting into cardboard.

After 900 cuts the BESS score was at 317, and it barely had any bite on my finger pads, but still cut cardboard well.


At that point, I was out of cardboard.
PXL_20221228_011900546.png
That's a large Chewy box (8" D 16" W 24" L) full of cardboard slices from several different boxes, including a cat litter box that had a lot of clay debris on it.

Somewhere along the line, probably thanks to the kitty litter box, I ended up getting some micro-chipping on the edge. I had to use a 60x loupe to see these, and could barely feel them with my fingernail. I could not see them under natural lighting or high illumination with no magnification at all, and the edge would still draw cut printer paper pretty clean, though some of the microchips did lead to some tearing of the paper.
PXL_20221227_235725045.png
After all this was done, I used the Shapton 2k to grind most of the microchips out. I ground one side until I felt a burr, which took probably 2 or 3 minutes at most, and then I finished it on my DMT 600 grit again. It's now poppping arm hair and whittling beard hair at a BESS score of 140.


Overall I think this is pretty great performance. After filling up that box with nearly 1000 cuts of cardboard, it was still within the "new high end cutlery" range of the BESS scale and cutting up printer paper quite cleanly. I noticed that the BESS score dropped pretty dramatically from 150 and then hung around the 200 range for a while, which matches edge-testing results I've seen on Larrin Thomas's blog and makes sense that the fine-edge was breaking down to a toothier, carbide-rich edge. Ultimately I think I probably could have cut up two or three times as much cardboard as was in the box before it got too dull to cut it cleanly.

I also really like the sharpen-ability. The high vanadium content gave me concern that my Shapton stone's wouldn't be up to it since I think they're most aluminum oxide, but the 2k raised a burr and got rid of the micro-chipping quite well. There was still a small amount of micro-chipping left after examining it again under 120x magnification, but none that was detectable by my fingernail. From the Shapton to the DMT I think it took me all of 10-15 minutes to bring the edge back to arm-hair popping, beard-hard whittling, BESS 140 (which is supposedly about as sharp as a utility razor).

I think the only thing that really gives me a little bit of concern here is the microchipping, but I don't know if that really suggests that it is overly brittle. This is a pretty acute edge geometry I'm using, and the chipping was indeed extremely small, so I think it was simply by merit of the apex being so small that the edge stability simply couldn't hold at that small of a level. However, that said, it was still cutting printer paper fairly cleanly, and it took a new edge extremely quickly which I feel like it would not have if it wasn't as hard as it is.

I think it's a pretty good indication of its edge holding since it never stopped sailing through the cardboard, and only seemed to dull at the most imperceptible levels.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#111

Post by Bemo »

Pretty good performance. Out of genuine curiosity, and to make sure I'm reading this right, you go up to a 2k grit finish but then back down to a 600 grit finish? Thanks
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#112

Post by kennbr34 »

Bemo wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 6:51 am
Pretty good performance. Out of genuine curiosity, and to make sure I'm reading this right, you go up to a 2k grit finish but then back down to a 600 grit finish? Thanks
Yep that's correct. It's actually one of those DMT credit-card sized hones, but I really like the finish I can get off of it and it's my preferred working edge finish and touch up hone. However, going from an Atoma 140 to a Shapton 120 leaves some pretty deep scratches and stuff that it would take ages to polish off with the credit-card sized 600 grit since it's lost a lot of its aggression and is such a small surface. So I used the 2k to get all the scratches from the super coarse stones out, and then drop back down to the 600 to minimize the amount of work I have to do on it. Plus I was also curious how the Shapton ceramics would handle the 15V and if I could get a burr off of it.

I also use a pretty peculiar finishing technique where I like to hold the hone up to my face and visually confirm the apex is in contact with the hone surface, so I can do extremely light, short edge leading strokes. I can do the same thing with a bench stone, but I have just been doing it so long with the credit card sized hone that I am faster and get better results with it.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#113

Post by WilliamMunny »

I did some digging around and poking on some ice today. Did not see any tip damage, held up just fine.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#114

Post by Strauss95 »

Bemo wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:20 pm
Just so happened that I was watching a couple of Shawn's youtube videos this morning where he was sharpening Maxamet. He was using a nagura to clean off bonded diamond and CBN stones. So I would think that's acceptable unless in the last 3 years or so he's changed his mind. Funny thing on the videos, I watched the one with Michael Christy talking about sharpening Maxamet and how it's not that difficult and he didn't understand why other very skilled knife sharpers were having problems and then I immediately watched Shawn's video on Maxamet where he has metal flakes break off and uses a lot of very adult language. Looked like an anomaly though and Shawn got a hair whittling edge on it.
I've been using a cheap nagura stone to clean my Venev's for the past 3yrs and they still cut any steel I thrown at them just fine. I have dressed them twice in that same time frame with 60 grit SIC powder on glass, which leaves the surface much more aggressive. But after sharpening a couple knives that aggressiveness wears away. Using the nagura does smooth the resin out but the stones still cut just fine, and much better compared to loaded up with metal.

So in summary, dressing with 60 grit SIC powder on glass offers the best performance. But using the nagura to clean is MUCH faster and doesn't grind away as much of the binder, so I prefer it for routine cleaning. I've tried all other methods of cleaning, using a scotchbrite pad with barkeeper's friend, magic eraser, stiff bristled brush, etc. The cheap nagura stone works the best for me.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#115

Post by electro-static »

Update on camping use: Inconclusive, K390, 15V, and CPM Cruwear, and LC200N failed to show any degradation of sharpness from use primary with wood. need more extreme teats to determine performance differences as everything has held up well so far.
Last edited by electro-static on Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#116

Post by electro-static »

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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#117

Post by RustyIron »

electro-static wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:54 pm
need more extreme teats
Heh, heh, heh. Huh, huh, huh.
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#118

Post by Enactive »

RustyIron wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:30 am
electro-static wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:54 pm
need more extreme teats
Heh, heh, heh. Huh, huh, huh.
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Oh, Rusty! Were you thinking goats?
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#119

Post by ladybug93 »

RustyIron wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:30 am
electro-static wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:54 pm
need more extreme teats
Heh, heh, heh. Huh, huh, huh.
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'23 is starting out quite nicely. :rofl
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Re: CPM 15V Sprint sharpening and performance thread

#120

Post by RustyIron »


I've been using the Über Manix for a week since last sharpening it. All the use as been relatively light duty, no hacking down manzanita bushes or cutting wire. While the performance was still good, I put the knife under the scope and discovered some deformation. Check out the first pic. The shiny area is slightly bent over. Other steels might have been a little chippy, and some might be a little more bendy, so this degree of damage didn't surprise me. If the edge was still perfect, now THAT would have surprised me.

Had I not SEEN the deformation, the knife would have been sharp enough to keep using. But I saw it, so I had to fix it. I just gave it some edge-leading attention with the 1100 diamond matrix stone to grind away the offending material. After the knife was sharp again, I gave it some edge-trailing passes, and then some stropping with a piece of wood. The second pic is the finished edge.

Today I actually measured the angle of the edge. My scribbles on a paper towel indicate 31 degrees. Accuracy should be less than a degree.



bright area = deformed area
Photo on 1-4-23 at 2.55 PM.jpg

I didn't notice this until just now, but the picture shows most sharpening perpendicular to the edge, and the finishing passes just a little different. It's kind of fun to see this stuff.
Photo on 1-4-23 at 3.28 PM.jpg
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