Please remove MAP pricing forever!

[vivi]

People have taken S110V, VG10, 440C etc. into oceans and they've done ok. That's great. I can rust all those steels in one hour on a summer trail run carrying them IWB. H1 I can't. That's why I love it.

I've had similar issues with VG-10, but I'm surprised S110V doesn't hold up. I thought that was its main selling point over S90V.
I'm also a bit surprised that H1 is so popular when LC200N is similarly stainless and holds an edge better. I've never been able to get LC200N to rust at all.

Well it's not a cut and dry situation for me. H1 Pacifics have smoother opening action, less pivot play, are easier to dye a variety of colors, have two handle shapes to choose from, is a tougher steel, etc.

The LC Pacifics are lighter and the FFG is better for certain materials.

I haven't noticed a very big difference in terms of edge retention, but I'm going based on my own use, not what charts etc. say. We all use our knives a bit differently so maybe someone else will see a bigger difference between them than me.

That's more pros for the H1 version than the LC. Of course someone else may prioritize things different than me.

[vandelay]

People have taken S110V, VG10, 440C etc. into oceans and they've done ok. That's great. I can rust all those steels in one hour on a summer trail run carrying them IWB. H1 I can't. That's why I love it.

I've had similar issues with VG-10, but I'm surprised S110V doesn't hold up. I thought that was its main selling point over S90V.
I'm also a bit surprised that H1 is so popular when LC200N is similarly stainless and holds an edge better. I've never been able to get LC200N to rust at all.

Well it's not a cut and dry situation for me. H1 Pacifics have smoother opening action, less pivot play, are easier to dye a variety of colors, have two handle shapes to choose from, is a tougher steel, etc.

The LC Pacifics are lighter and the FFG is better for certain materials.

I haven't noticed a very big difference in terms of edge retention, but I'm going based on my own use, not what charts etc. say. We all use our knives a bit differently so maybe someone else will see a bigger difference between them than me.

That's more pros for the H1 version than the LC. Of course someone else may prioritize things different than me.

Is the toughness actually significant enough to matter? LC looked pretty tough from Larrin's testing. I'm pretty gentle on my folding knives so I don't think about toughness until it gets to maxamet levels.

I've never owned a H1 knife so I can't comment on real-world edge retention. I get frustrated with 1095's edge stability so I can't justify spending money on a knife in H1 which I've seen perform worse in tests.

I didn't know the H1 and LC versions differed beyond the steel type and the grind. I figured they would have used the same mold for the FRN on both.

[Scandi Grind]

I don't notice any special service from small online retailers vs amazon. I order knives, they show up. If there's a problem (and I haven't had any yet) I'd just return the knife regardless of retailer.

I can't argue what your experiences have been since they are obviously your own, if Amazon has always worked for you then by all means use them if you wish.

I have had many issues that have involved shipping mistakes from Amazon that they were responsible for and sometimes have been forced to spend hours attempting to get them to remedy the issue. On the other hand, I have always had my problems resolved quickly and very courteously from a number of smaller dealers, and it has taken some of the stress out of purchasing knives.

[James Y]

About H1 and edge retention:

I haven’t noticed any problems at all in SE H1’s edge retention at all. In fact, SE H1 holds an edge very well in my uses. And IIRC, vivi knows how to get the best out of PE H1 with his method of sharpening.

Jim

[RamZar]

Keep MAP but change it from 30% off MSRP to 40%-45% off MSRP. I saw a lot of items being sold at 44% off MSRP during the MAP Holiday and I figure dealers were still making good money at that discount rate.

[JRinFL]

Keep MAP but change it from 30% off MSRP to 40%-45% off MSRP. I saw a lot of items being sold at 44% off MSRP during the MAP Holiday and I figure dealers were still making good money at that discount rate.

We are on the same page.

[vivi]

Is the toughness actually significant enough to matter? LC looked pretty tough from Larrin's testing. I'm pretty gentle on my folding knives so I don't think about toughness until it gets to maxamet levels.

I've never owned a H1 knife so I can't comment on real-world edge retention. I get frustrated with 1095's edge stability so I can't justify spending money on a knife in H1 which I've seen perform worse in tests.

I didn't know the H1 and LC versions differed beyond the steel type and the grind. I figured they would have used the same mold for the FRN on both.

The H1 Pacific spans two generations, so there are two different handle styles to choose from. Gen 1 has a stiffer handle than 2.

Maybe I got lemons but the pivots have more play in all my LC Pacifics compared to my H1's.

I still enjoy using my LC200N Pacific with a thinned out edge, but the expected performance jump hasn't quite been there for me. I've also used LC200N in a couple of Sirens and a Waterway, and H1 in different designs as well.

Make no mistake, I love both steels, but the edge retention difference is so minimal it alone wouldn't make me select one over the other. The FFG vs Hollow Saber is a bigger difference for me.

Even though they're the same pattern, they're not the same knife. The H1 version has a much stouter tip. That combined with H1's toughness means I don't hesitate to do minor prying with it. I don't with the LC version.

If you want a large corrosion free knife with the sliciest blade, the LC version would make sense. If you want a rust free tank you can use hard without second thought the H1 works better.

There's room for both in my collection.

Edge stability of H1 is somewhat an achilles heal, but I've been able to mitigate that to some degree by using low grit edges. Minor edge deformation makes less of a difference to a 200 grit edge than a 2,000 grit edge, so going a month between sharpenings is easy. Its corrosion resistance, sharpening response and toughness is superior to any other stainless I've tried.

[Senfkarte]

Help me to find the flaw in my thinking, but why not lower the MSRP and keep the MAP at 30% or lower it to 20%? This would not lead to higher prices in the USA, but lower the prices everywhere else. Maybe not everywhere, but for sure in the EU.
The only "looser" would be Spyderco on their own website, since they sell at MSRP. But they produce the knives and still will have the highest profit. And maybe even sell more knives by themselves, since the prices are lower. The dealers will still have even lower prices (at MAP), so they don't are a hard competition for them.

[vivi]

Why don't EU shops use MAP?

[Senfkarte]

Why don't EU shops use MAP?

I think (but don't know for sure) it has something to do with import tax. They (customs) calculate the tax based on the MSRP, if I'm correct. That makes the knives expensive to get.
Caution: there is a lot of superficial knowledge in this text.

[vivi]

Why don't EU shops use MAP?

I think (but don't know for sure) it has something to do with import tax. They (customs) calculate the tax based on the MSRP, if I'm correct. That makes the knives expensive to get.

what happens if you order one from a US retailer? Do they charge you the same amount of import tax or would you make out cheaper after shipping costs?

[Senfkarte]

Why don't EU shops use MAP?

I think (but don't know for sure) it has something to do with import tax. They (customs) calculate the tax based on the MSRP, if I'm correct. That makes the knives expensive to get.

what happens if you order one from a US retailer? Do they charge you the same amount of import tax or would you make out cheaper after shipping costs?

I can't say for sure. The only knives I ordered from a US retailer, have been shop exclusives.


But let's say I want to buy a SpydieChef from DLT Traiding.

That's 269.15$ plus shipping. I wan't able to find a good source for shipping costs to Germany, so I assume 30$ for shipping (yes, you pay taxes on the shipping cost, too).
So we are at ~300$. The German online calculator provided by customs calculates, that I would have to pay 89.33€ (92,99$) just in tax.

So that already would be 377.63€. But that's not all.
The shipping service wants money, too. Since they paid the tax for you and have done all the paperwork. How much they want depends on the shipping service which will deliver your package. DHL usually just want 6€, independent of how much money the tax have been. FedEx once made me pay 94.79€ for a package with items in it, that had a combined value of 301.60$, so they are in the same region, too...although back then, 300$ was way less in €, so they are or have been more expensive.

A very quick search for the SpydieChef in EU stores gave me prices from 267€ (but only available in a month or so, so that price could change)(at knivesandtools.de) over 290€ (at com2you-biwak.de) and 322.45€ (at Lamnia [on the official dealer list]) to 385€ (at Böker [on the official dealer list]).
It is cheaper to buy the SpydieChef in an EU store. Maybe there are cheaper US dealers, that I could have found for the SpydieChef and maybe the SpydieChef was not the best example and there are other cases. But I just choose one random model and my mouse pointer stopped by the SpydieChef.

[RamZar]

During the MAP Holiday between Black Friday and Cyber Monday I purchased a Spyderco Stovepipe for $300 shipped. The alternative was a hard pass at the $420 street price (MSRP: $600.00).

I have my eye on the SpyOpera Damasteel DS93X Carbon Fiber but again it’s a hard pass at the street price of $406 (MSRP: $580.00). I’d definitely buy one for $290.

[SpyderFreak69]

Remove MAP

[awa54]

The poll will heavily favor removing MAP of course, but the purpose was always to help dealers improve their margins. If that wasn't the case and/or it resulted in less net profit, Spyderco would've heard the complaints and removed it already. Ultimately dealers are Spyderco's "customers", and that's who they listen to regarding MAP.

Given that, I'm not sure any of your arguments are very influential to the brand(?).

Of course as a purchaser I'd like MAP removed :)

Dealers may be the "customer" as far as who pays Spyderco for their products, but overall sales volume and Spyderco's own profits are definitely going to be a big part of the equation surrounding MAP percentages and enforcement.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I hope this doesn't sound ignorant but can you all please give me a basic summary again of what MAP is? Is my understanding correct, that it sets a rule that any official retailer or knife seller whom works with and purchases their knives from Spyderco for resale to the public must agree to a minimum retail price for that knife, set by Spyderco headquarters, and if that knife retailer does not abide by this agreed-to rule, they are no longer allowed to purchase knives for resale from Spyderco?

For example: If a company, let's call them "Knife Seller USA" is an official Spyderco dealer and decides to offer an Endura for 50 US dollars, instead of the standard price, to undercut their competition, and make up for the possible loss by selling other goods like flashlights and tents instead, Spyderco will see this and will say that unless they agree to the set minimum price, they will no longer be allowed to purchase knives from Spyderco for resale to the public?

If my understanding of MAP is correct, what is the main reason or reasons why Spyderco doesn't just say "As long as the persons purchase our knives at the cost we give them, they can go ahead and resell them for whatever price they want", as long as Spyderco themselves are receiving the set amount they desire to receive from the knife retailer?

How would that policy have negative effects as long as Spyderco gets paid?

[apollo]

Why don't EU shops use MAP?

Customs rules i guess EU retailers buy spydies from spyderco at the same cost as the US ones.
But on top of that are taxes and shipping.
If the shops then count there profits on top of that we buyers in the EU are thrilled to see a knife we can buy on MSRP price! Because EU shops sell not on msrp but above msrp…
For example if i want to buy a new Manix XL i am so happy to see at a price between 220 and 250 euro.
While most shops sell them at 280-325 euro now.

So as long as spyderco keeps increasing its msrp the bigger the gap between us and eu prices get.
Then on top of that there are models where they go miles above msrp.
Like when i was lucky to import a nirvana for 480 euro while eu price was 900.
The former g10 lil temperances where nightmares why simple. You guys pay msrp at the worst for us it was a 360/380 euro knife.
Crazy isn’t it

[benben]

There’s this knife vendor that’s always at the Hickory, NC gun show, probably early to mid sixties, well dressed and well spoken, super friendly guy!

He‘s a pretty big BM and ZT dealer. He always has just 3 or 4 Spyderco’s on hand, that’s it, no more. And they’re always Golden models, base stuff like a PM2, a Para 3, and a LW Manix.

So one show I asked him why he didn’t carry or sell more Spyderco’s? When I asked him he was pretty busy, his booth was surrounded with customers.

Now don’t shoot the messenger here….he said with MAP pricing he just couldn’t make any money on them, and he absolutely couldn’t discount them at shows like everyone expects, he said the margins just weren’t there, and….they were just harder to deal with then the other two I mentioned earlier. His words, not mine!

I wanted to get him to expound on it a little more, and I could tell he wanted to, he was just too busy right then.

Those guys know who the knife guys are from show to show, I’ve spoke to him for years at that particular gun show and he fully knows I’m a Spyderco guy cause he told me he’d love to sell me one!

[Sharp Guy]

If my understanding of MAP is correct, what is the main reason or reasons why Spyderco doesn't just say "As long as the persons purchase our knives at the cost we give them, they can go ahead and resell them for whatever price they want", as long as Spyderco themselves are receiving the set amount they desire to receive from the knife retailer?

How would that policy have negative effects as long as Spyderco gets paid?

Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) is in place to help the smaller brick and mortor dealers compete with the bigger dealers

This sums it up nicely...

"A MAP policy is used to ensure an even playing field amongst retailers that want to drive margin or volume, whilst ensuring that the brand’s product is not devalued by a constant price-war."

https://www.channelsight.com/blog/what- ... for-brands

As unpopular with the ELUs as it might be, I think it was a smart move for Spyderco to go to MAP

[Sharp Guy]

There’s this knife vendor that’s always at the Hickory, NC gun show, probably early to mid sixties, well dressed and well spoken, super friendly guy!

He‘s a pretty big BM and ZT dealer. He always has just 3 or 4 Spyderco’s on hand, that’s it, no more. And they’re always Golden models, base stuff like a PM2, a Para 3, and a LW Manix.

So one show I asked him why he didn’t carry or sell more Spyderco’s? When I asked him he was pretty busy, his booth was surrounded with customers.

Now don’t shoot the messenger here….he said with MAP pricing he just couldn’t make any money on them, and he absolutely couldn’t discount them at shows like everyone expects, he said the margins just weren’t there, and….they were just harder to deal with then the other two I mentioned earlier. His words, not mine!

I wanted to get him to expound on it a little more, and I could tell he wanted to, he was just too busy right then.

Those guys know who the knife guys are from show to show, I’ve spoke to him for years at that particular gun show and he fully knows I’m a Spyderco guy cause he told me he’d love to sell me one!

I guess it depends on the dealer because at the big gun show in Tulsa there's at least 3 or 4 dealers with a lot of Spyderco models. Even the dealers at the shows here in the Dallas area have a whole bunch of Spyderco models. I assume they feel it's worth it for them to sell Spyderco