The Elephant In The Reveal (besides the BBB Manix): The Lil Temperance LW Price

[RamZar]

I just saw the G-10 version is actually still available at a few places for the 2019 price of $211. The fact that they're still lingering at that price in some inventories isn't a good sign.

Given a choice of a must have Lil’ Temperance I’d pay $211.25 for the S30V & G-10 compared to $176.40 for VG-10 & FRN.

https://www.dlttrading.com/spyderco-lil ... black-g-10

[ladybug93]

Another Spyderco knife which should not have been made at the factory that it is/was just like the Stretch XL CruWear G-10 and the following from 2017 considering the US street price:

• D’Allara3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Lil’ Temperance3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Chinook4 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Opus CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• A.T.R.2 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)

What Spyderco should or shouldn’t be doing isn’t for us guests to say, surely. As I recall, the five you’ve listed had no production slots available anywhere except Seki-City. I’m glad to have three of them, including the Lil’Temp3.

i think you're arguing a semantics issue here. these knives likely failed to catch on because of poor value due to where they were produced. value is subjective, but most would agree these were too expensive for what they are. i regret not snagging a lt3 when they were on clearance everywhere for $99, but i don't think i'd like the knife more than any others i have that were a much better value.

[wrdwrght]

Another Spyderco knife which should not have been made at the factory that it is/was just like the Stretch XL CruWear G-10 and the following from 2017 considering the US street price:

• D’Allara3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Lil’ Temperance3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Chinook4 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Opus CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• A.T.R.2 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)

What Spyderco should or shouldn’t be doing isn’t for us guests to say, surely. As I recall, the five you’ve listed had no production slots available anywhere except Seki-City. I’m glad to have three of them, including the Lil’Temp3.

i think you're arguing a semantics issue here. these knives likely failed to catch on because of poor value due to where they were produced. value is subjective, but most would agree these were too expensive for what they are. i regret not snagging a lt3 when they were on clearance everywhere for $99, but i don't think i'd like the knife more than any others i have that were a much better value.

I was merely reminding the forum that the listed knives, which Sal & Eric obviously wanted made, got made where they thought best. I made no argument (except against telling Spyderco what to do), semantics or not. And I expressed no opinion about costs/popularity of the LT3. Were you, in fact, addressing me?

[Mystery Flavor]

Some people might start to wonder if greed and integrity are changing over the years at Spyderco. You can feel it in certain comments on this forum and around the internet when all kinds of spyderco discussions happen. I think people are accurately noticing signs, but many are afraid to speak bluntly about what they are noticing. So many people just self-censor beyond belief in all aspects of life. It's always spoken in a roundabout way to try to never sound like a doubter. If the coming years keep the same trends of prices out of spyderco I can only suspect more and more people will start to "wonder".........

Hopefully Sal will reply to the questions already raised about what specific factors make this knife so much more costly to produce, rather than just telling us the maker says it is very difficult to make. Because when I use my eyes and look at the photos and materials I do not see evidence for the claims that it should cost such a shockingly higher price.

When I first saw the price for this knife and the cruwear XL stretch it caused me to laugh. Not a good laugh... more like the kind of laugh that leads to people turning their back on a company.

[sal]

You can believe me in what I say, or not? You can trust in the company that we always try to be honest, fair and proper, or not? If you think that the model is too expensive for what you see in the product, then you probably shouldn't purchase one. We have many models for which customers question the cost/price. We/I try to be as transparent as we/I can and still maintain some privacy in business.

It is what it is. Sometimes just because I can't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means I can't see it. The details of why the maker says it's harder to make is private information. We've been working with this maker for 42 years. I worked with the grand father and and the father and my son works with the grand son. It is a long term relationship built on mutual trust. No body is trying to gouge anyone.

sal

[Deadboxhero]

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can have the patience for some of the comments I see here on the forum.

I certainly do not have the patience.

However, I am impressed by those that do.

[skeeg11]

I take Sal's explanation on Spyderco pricing as gospel. In this day and age, an in depth discussion of current world pricing would get very political which is verboten on this forum.

[Mystery Flavor]

You can believe me in what I say, or not? You can trust in the company that we always try to be honest, fair and proper, or not? If you think that the model is too expensive for what you see in the product, then you probably shouldn't purchase one. We have many models for which customers question the cost/price. We/I try to be as transparent as we/I can and still maintain some privacy in business.

It is what it is. Sometimes just because I can't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means I can't see it. The details of why the maker says it's harder to make is private information. We've been working with this maker for 42 years. I worked with the grand father and and the father and my son works with the grand son. It is a long term relationship built on mutual trust. No body is trying to gouge anyone.

sal

And sometimes when we can't see something there really is nothing there? That is also possible. I'm trying to suggest people consider all possibilities instead of just having blind faith in a company and their claims. (no matter what company or group) I doubt anyone was hoping for your private information explanation. We just were hoping for a common sense explanation for the extremely high price given the materials. Some of the prior posters asked very reasonable questions that weren't seeking any secret information.

[RamZar]

There’s a certain reality which is quite revealing and undeniable regardless of other factors.

There’s a Lil’ Temperance folder with VG-10 & FRN (Japan) for $176.40 versus Lil’ Native folder with S30V & G-10 (USA) for $142.45!

Both have compression lock & stainless steel liners.

[skeeg11]

My Stanford degree in Economics don't mean squat when i see the insane price increases on staples like eggs, bread, potatoes, mayo, etc. After a skunked fishing trip, I stopped by the wharf for a live dungeness crab. $30.00 for a single crab. In the context of real price increases on staples, I think Spyderco is actually toeing the line.

[Jim Malone]

That doesn't mean that people don't misuse the "recession" to increase their prices and make huge profits because they can blame it on the difficult times. If the price of the Lil Temp is an indication of the future of Spyderco ( don't buy it if you can't afford it) sadly from a pure economic standpoint i'll be forced to look elswhere.

[mark greenman]

I just saw the G-10 version is actually still available at a few places for the 2019 price of $211. The fact that they're still lingering at that price in some inventories isn't a good sign.

I think the problem for the Lil T is theres 'Lil' actual hard info about the knife design in the ad copy that would make it compelling vs Spyderco's other offerings.

Now the Lil’ Temperance 3 revives this classic design in a leaner, simpler form that is ideal for both utilitarian and personal-defense use..."
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/detail ... ade-3/1032

The problem is after reading this several times, theres nothing specific in the ad copy that actually says why its 'ideal for utilitarian or personal defense use' compared to Spyderco's numerous other offerings of a FFG blade with ~3" of cutting edge.

Compared to say, a Para 2, what are the advantages of the Lil Temp in utility or SD use? These advantages really need to be highlighted in the copy.

[Araignee]

General increase in cost to Spyderco for materials and Japanese labor, amortizing new FRN molds, tweaks to (if not new) tooling, achieving internal MBC rating…they all add to the price to us.

Add to this a misperception that this knife is no big deal and now it’s overpriced.

And with the fall of currencies against the US$, the price abroad will be going higher, and so trouble definitely lies ahead, even for Spyderco…

Sal mentionned difficulty, which I assume is chiefly related to the technical aspects involved in producing this knife.

The points you mention are valid but should play a peripheral role.

[Toucan]

Hi Toucan,

First of all, we do not set prices based on pulling it out of a hat. All of our prices are based on a relatively fixed formula. The cost to make the knife, is what determines the price. The maker making this knife says it's a very difficult knife to make and so he charges us more to make it. Tooling is built into the cost, but it has nothing to do with volume or anything else. We'll sometimes lower our margins because we recognize that the price is high, and it some cases, we keep models around for other than business reasons. The Lil' Temperance 3 in FRN has been in development for a very long time. It is a very unique model and is purpose built. The market for it will probably not be large, partly because of the design and partly because of the price.

Hope that helps.

sal

Hey Sal,

Thanks for the explanation. Sorry this thread turned into a bit of a dumpster fire. I didn't mean to be accusatory, and tried to convey that there are still good values to be had from Spyderco and all that. I hope did not step on any toes or incite any negative feelings from forumites. I can only assume people are a bit touchy about the cost of everything in general right now, and that extends into knives.

So, if you can, without getting into anything proprietary, are the technical challenges of the production related to lock strength? I think a lot of people would be interested in learning what makes the LT3LW such a special knife that commands a premium.

[nerdlock]

Although I do understand the complexity and expensive initial costs of making new FRN molds, I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that the Rockjumper, another knife with a brand new FRN mold and with the same steel and also made in Japan, costs only $87-92. I guess the additional costs must be either due to the lock, or some other construction process that makes this knife viable for MBC, or a combination of both?

[ladybug93]

say what you want, but the "we have a long history with the maker" explanation is getting old. "your serrations on your $200 knife are jacked up...? huh... i guess you could just return it and miss out on the model. we like the maker more than the customer." "the knife is more expensive because they said it's hard and we trust them. just don't buy it." these don't sound like the responses of someone that is worried about the customer. i know that's not generally true of sal or spyderco, which is why it is getting so frustrating, as is the cult-like response of forum members when these excuses are given. when we got the response about the ayoob, many of you fell over yourself calling spyderco noble for caring more about a struggling business in japan than the customers that received sub-par products. it's getting old.

i like this forum. i like spyderco. i like spyderco knives. i'm getting tired of these types of responses though. and i'd hardly call this thread a dumpster fire just because people have opinions.

[benben]

The Lil’ Temperance has never really been on my radar but I sure can’t get over the MSRP price of the new Lil’ Native Wharncliffe!

$203.50 MSRP with a MAP of $142.45 for a ~6” folder of basic Black G-10 and S30V, of course I know there’s more to it than those two material elements but that price shocked me!

[Gtscotty]

I just saw the G-10 version is actually still available at a few places for the 2019 price of $211. The fact that they're still lingering at that price in some inventories isn't a good sign.

I think the problem for the Lil T is theres 'Lil' actual hard info about the knife design in the ad copy that would make it compelling vs Spyderco's other offerings.

Now the Lil’ Temperance 3 revives this classic design in a leaner, simpler form that is ideal for both utilitarian and personal-defense use..."
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/detail ... ade-3/1032

The problem is after reading this several times, theres nothing specific in the ad copy that actually says why its 'ideal for utilitarian or personal defense use' compared to Spyderco's numerous other offerings of a FFG blade with ~3" of cutting edge.

Compared to say, a Para 2, what are the advantages of the Lil Temp in utility or SD use? These advantages really need to be highlighted in the copy.

^ That's the point I was trying to get at too. If you're going to bring out a model that looks a lot like some of your other models, but is priced significantly higher, it's probably worth going to the trouble to explain the value proposition to customers for this new offering somewhere in the ad copy. Give them an idea of what the extra cash is buying them, otherwise you leave them with the reasonable impression that it's just overpriced for what they're getting, out competed by even your own offerings.

[ladybug93]

Another Spyderco knife which should not have been made at the factory that it is/was just like the Stretch XL CruWear G-10 and the following from 2017 considering the US street price:

• D’Allara3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Lil’ Temperance3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Chinook4 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Opus CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• A.T.R.2 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)

What Spyderco should or shouldn’t be doing isn’t for us guests to say, surely. As I recall, the five you’ve listed had no production slots available anywhere except Seki-City. I’m glad to have three of them, including the Lil’Temp3.

i think you're arguing a semantics issue here. these knives likely failed to catch on because of poor value due to where they were produced. value is subjective, but most would agree these were too expensive for what they are. i regret not snagging a lt3 when they were on clearance everywhere for $99, but i don't think i'd like the knife more than any others i have that were a much better value.

I was merely reminding the forum that the listed knives, which Sal & Eric obviously wanted made, got made where they thought best. I made no argument (except against telling Spyderco what to do), semantics or not. And I expressed no opinion about costs/popularity of the LT3. Were you, in fact, addressing me?

yeah. i'm not sure now. i may have read into your post more than is there or i may have been responding to multiple responses... i'm not sure. i've been traveling for weeks and i'm a little out of sorts. i'm sorry if i misrepresented what you were saying.

[JRinFL]

When long term Spyderco owners with many multiple knives start talking about something it is what's called a "sign". Laugh it off, deflect it, chase off the naysayers, embrace it, work to change it, do whatever, just don't ignore it.