Indisputable proof that SpyderEdge is more versatile than plain edge

[zhyla]

You can turn any SE blade into PE but not the other way around

[Evil D]

I kinda think that was originally a plain edge, it's just been sharpened to death. The edge is pretty low at the heel/plunge line, I think if it started out as SE the grind would be much higher.

[ZrowsN1s]

You can turn any SE blade into PE but not the other way around

I accidentally made this a PE.

[Oloung1]

^^ Impressive

[JD Spydo]

For many years now I've carried and EDCed both SE and PE edge types. And I use each one almost on a daily basis. To have both edge types as companion blades sure comes in handy at times.

I'm actually getting more like David the more time passes. I'm finding myself using one of my PE models less and less over the years.

[Osok-308]

You can turn any SE blade into PE but not the other way around

I accidentally made this a PE.

Good grief! That's my biggest aversion to trying to sharpen my SE knives! Is that just too much pressure while sharpening?

[ZrowsN1s]

You can turn any SE blade into PE but not the other way around

I accidentally made this a PE.

Good grief! That's my biggest aversion to trying to sharpen my SE knives! Is that just too much pressure while sharpening?

There were a few issues, I was using the CBN stones which have a deeper scratch pattern than the brown or white rods, and second I was sharpening very fast while dragging the knife across the stones. The vertical angle I was holding the knife at was also causing me to drag the teeth more and the scallops less.

Bottom line it was a big reprofile job that was taking forever and I went too fast. It sucks that it takes so long to a reprofile correctly, but this is what happens when you rush it.

The silver lining for me is I really like how it turned out. The edge is great and it performs very well. It's the PE dragonfly hawkbill I always wanted. But I wouldn't call it SE anymore.

[James Y]

You can turn any SE blade into PE but not the other way around

I agree with David. That's definitely a sharpened-down PE blade. If it had originally been SE that was ground down, a lot more of the edge would be missing, especially at the heel of the blade.

Jim

[Joshua J.]

You can turn any SE blade into PE but not the other way around

I accidentally made this a PE.

This is the perfect demonstration of why SE blades should only be sharpened flat with the primary bevel on the back side of the serrations.
Rather than making the edge bevel thicker, grinding the back side just makes the edge thinner and it cuts better.
And rather than erasing the shape of the scallops, you keep the factory scallops through the entire useful life of the knife.

[Doc Dan]

Some people are sharpening stone happy. I wonder if it produces some sort of euphoria? Of course, the cure for all this is to have so many knives no single one of them ever gets sharpened that much.

[Wartstein]

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..

This is the perfect demonstration of why SE blades should only be sharpened flat with the primary bevel on the back side of the serrations.
Rather than making the edge bevel thicker, grinding the back side just makes the edge thinner and it cuts better.
And rather than erasing the shape of the scallops, you keep the factory scallops through the entire useful life of the knife.

Not so sure about that: Only "grinding the backside" will also remove the acute SE chisel grind and make the inclusive angle more obtuse, won't it?

[Wandering_About]

Some people are sharpening stone happy. I wonder if it produces some sort of euphoria? Of course, the cure for all this is to have so many knives no single one of them ever gets sharpened that much.

If you just keep them in the sock drawer where they belong everything will be okay.

[Evil D]

...

..

This is the perfect demonstration of why SE blades should only be sharpened flat with the primary bevel on the back side of the serrations.
Rather than making the edge bevel thicker, grinding the back side just makes the edge thinner and it cuts better.
And rather than erasing the shape of the scallops, you keep the factory scallops through the entire useful life of the knife.

Not so sure about that: Only "grinding the backside" will also remove the acute SE chisel grind and make the inclusive angle more obtuse, won't it?

The inclusive angle may not change if you do this will a FFG but it will on a hollow grind, and if you do it enough the serrations eventually shorten in height to the point of being deleted off the blade, not to mention the edge will also work it's way off center of the blade. It may be a fine practice for a knife that doesn't see much use and is only sharpened on fine stones but I'd never do it for my users that see edge damage that needs fixed often.

[Wartstein]

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Not so sure about that: Only "grinding the backside" will also remove the acute SE chisel grind and make the inclusive angle more obtuse, won't it?

The inclusive angle may not change if you do this will a FFG but it will on a hollow grind, and if you do it enough the serrations eventually shorten in height to the point of being deleted off the blade, not to mention the edge will also work it's way off center of the blade. It may be a fine practice for a knife that doesn't see much use and is only sharpened on fine stones but I'd never do it for my users that see edge damage that needs fixed often.

Why would the inclusive angle not change if an ffg (SE) chisel grind is only sharpened on the "backside"? :

Let's say the ffg SE knife comes with 20 degree INCLUSIVE from the factory: Since it has a chisel grind hat 20 degrees are on the scalloped side, while the "backside" has basically zero degrees.

Now if one exclusively always only sharpens that backside, the inclusive angle just has to get more obtuse? But perhaps I am missing something...

[Evil D]

...

Not so sure about that: Only "grinding the backside" will also remove the acute SE chisel grind and make the inclusive angle more obtuse, won't it?

The inclusive angle may not change if you do this will a FFG but it will on a hollow grind, and if you do it enough the serrations eventually shorten in height to the point of being deleted off the blade, not to mention the edge will also work it's way off center of the blade. It may be a fine practice for a knife that doesn't see much use and is only sharpened on fine stones but I'd never do it for my users that see edge damage that needs fixed often.

Why would the inclusive angle not change if an ffg (SE) chisel grind is only sharpened on the "backside"? :

Let's say the ffg SE knife comes with 20 degree INCLUSIVE from the factory: Since it has a chisel grind hat 20 degrees are on the scalloped side, while the "backside" has basically zero degrees.

Now if one exclusively always only sharpens that backside, the inclusive angle just has to get more obtuse? But perhaps I am missing something...

The back side of a FFG chisel grind is not zero degrees, it's whatever degrees the blade grind is, so if you laid the blade flat on a stone and sharpened the back side evenly without adding a secondary bevel, the inclusive angle should stay the same. On a hollow grind I guess the same would be true if you laid the blade flat, but I'd guarantee you that you'd see a bevel form at the edge and it would grind much faster than the top shoulder of the hollow grind and it would quickly change the angle. Again, maybe less so on very fine stones but it would happen eventually.

[TomAiello]

For many years now I've carried and EDCed both SE and PE edge types.

Ditto. I find each to have it's strengths, and while I use the PE more, there are definitely many situations where the SE is far superior for my tasks.

I honestly think one of the reasons that 'knife people' tend to use PE more is that SE is 'boring' in terms of sharpening and experimenting with the edge. It's ridiculously reliable and low maintenance, and people at the 'knife as hobby' level want something they can tinker with more. For 'knife as tool' people, SE is better the majority (maybe 70%?) of the time. There are absolutely tasks where I'd prefer PE (I recently cut an apple with my SE K05 and the PE is definitely preferable for that task), but for outdoor utility uses, SE is awesome.

[Joshua J.]

..

This is the perfect demonstration of why SE blades should only be sharpened flat with the primary bevel on the back side of the serrations.
Rather than making the edge bevel thicker, grinding the back side just makes the edge thinner and it cuts better.
And rather than erasing the shape of the scallops, you keep the factory scallops through the entire useful life of the knife.

Not so sure about that: Only "grinding the backside" will also remove the acute SE chisel grind and make the inclusive angle more obtuse, won't it?

The inclusive angle may not change if you do this will a FFG but it will on a hollow grind, and if you do it enough the serrations eventually shorten in height to the point of being deleted off the blade, not to mention the edge will also work it's way off center of the blade. It may be a fine practice for a knife that doesn't see much use and is only sharpened on fine stones but I'd never do it for my users that see edge damage that needs fixed often.

Every Spyder Edge I've seen already has a bevel on the back side, they still finish the edge with a bevel on both sides, so in that regard you can most likely improve on the factory edge with a bit more grinding on the primary bevel.
Hollow Ground blades are especially good because, like sharpening a straight razor, the hollow just makes it much faster to sharpen.

Yes, once you've thinned the blade to nothing that is the end of the useful life of the blade.
On most folders after about 1/8 of the spine to edge width is ground off the edge is no longer covered by the handle anyway, forcing the knife into retirement (unless you're going to disassemble the knife and adjust the kick). Some handles do cover more blade than others so it's not universal, but at least this way after the serrations are gone you've still got an effective slicer.

Even if you do believe in maintaining the scallops you are far better off sharpening away the majority of the scallop bevel before trying to grind the scallops deeper into the blade.
Starting off your sharpening routine by thickening an already very thick bevel goes against basic principles of knife sharpening.

[Evil D]

Every Spyder Edge I've seen already has a bevel on the back side, they still finish the edge with a bevel on both sides, so in that regard you can most likely improve on the factory edge with a bit more grinding on the primary bevel.
Hollow Ground blades are especially good because, like sharpening a straight razor, the hollow just makes it much faster to sharpen.

Yes, once you've thinned the blade to nothing that is the end of the useful life of the blade.
On most folders after about 1/8 of the spine to edge width is ground off the edge is no longer covered by the handle anyway, forcing the knife into retirement (unless you're going to disassemble the knife and adjust the kick). Some handles do cover more blade than others so it's not universal, but at least this way after the serrations are gone you've still got an effective slicer.

Even if you do believe in maintaining the scallops you are far better off sharpening away the majority of the scallop bevel before trying to grind the scallops deeper into the blade.
Starting off your sharpening routine by thickening an already very thick bevel goes against basic principles of knife sharpening.

I don't have one single SE blade that has an edge bevel ground on the back side and I think I have about 30 SE knives now....?


You and I have had this debate before, and I have to say I couldn't understand where you're coming from any less than I do. The way I reprofile my serrations doesn't make the edge thicker either, I don't see where you're getting that. The thickness of the blade at the top edge of the serration bevel shoulder may increase (thickness behind the bevel) but the resulting inclusive edge angle is typically below 20 degrees and by lowering the bevel angle it blends in better with the blade grind and makes the front bevel closer to a convex edge, making a much smoother blade that slices way better. The added benefits of smoother ridges between the serrations and less snagging are also enormous.

[Wartstein]

For many years now I've carried and EDCed both SE and PE edge types.

.... For 'knife as tool' people, SE is better the majority (maybe 70%?) of the time......

Honestly, for me personally close to 100% of the time in the tasks I use my folders (! not fixed blades!) for...

And I am talking about a well sharpened SE blade vs a well sharpened PE blade (people wiser than me have said this before: Mostly not true for this forum, but otherwise often times pretty DULL SE gets compared to SHARP SE ("DULL" PE has no chance against "dull" SE anyway - the latter will still separate matter (perhaps not nicely, but still) while the former is pretty much useless))

Just my 2c.

[ZrowsN1s]

Well the whole reason I attempted to do it was to reprofile from 40 to 30 Degrees. I purposely didn't sharpen the backside other than to remove the burr. I wanted to preserve the low angle on the back as much as possible.

The new edge angle is probably 8+15=23 inclusive. It's quite sharp.

As I said before I've see others reprofile to 30 degrees without erasing the teeth. This was really just a matter of me not taking the proper time and powering through with a CBN stone. One of the reasons I'd still like a lower grit CBN stone for the sharpmaker. So I could go slower and make more progress.