Proxy for sharpness

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Soanso McMasters
Member
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:07 am

Proxy for sharpness

#1

Post by Soanso McMasters »

What “test” do you do to confirm an acceptable level of sharpness? Push cutting magazine paper? Push cutting newspaper? Shaving? Hair whittling? There are many ways to confirm varying degrees of sharpness, so what do you call “sharp enough” to suit you?
User avatar
Cheddarnut
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:14 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#2

Post by Cheddarnut »

I stop sharpening when i hear the edge start singing the first of three words in the title of one of ZZ Tops greatest hits.
User avatar
ZrowsN1s
Member
Posts: 7324
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: San Diego, California USA

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#3

Post by ZrowsN1s »

A BESS score under 150 is good enough for most of my uses.
Image

If I'm not using the BESS tester I see if the edge can split one of my beard hairs or cleanly slice through paper, thin plastic, or cardboard. Shaving a little arm hair works too.
-Matt a.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135 I ❤ The P'KAL :bug-red

"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
"Ghost hunters scope the edge." -sal
Soanso McMasters
Member
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:07 am

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#4

Post by Soanso McMasters »

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 12:44 am
A BESS score under 150 is good enough for most of my uses.
Image

If I'm not using the BESS tester I see if the edge can split one of my beard hairs or cleanly slice through paper, thin plastic, or cardboard. Shaving a little arm hair works too.
Have you been able to figure out what a sub-150 Bess score translates to in other measures? For example, does a sub 150 Bess score translate to hair whittling, etc?
User avatar
ZrowsN1s
Member
Posts: 7324
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: San Diego, California USA

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#5

Post by ZrowsN1s »

150 - 200 is where a utility razor would fall. 137 will most definitely shave and split a hair. I'd call that hair splitting not whittling. It would need to be sharper for that.

A shaving double sided razor would be around 50 BESS
-Matt a.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135 I ❤ The P'KAL :bug-red

"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
"Ghost hunters scope the edge." -sal
Soanso McMasters
Member
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:07 am

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#6

Post by Soanso McMasters »

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 12:49 am
150 - 200 is where a utility razor would fall. 137 will most definitely shave and split a hair. I'd call that hair splitting not whittling. It would need to be sharper for that.

A shaving double sided razor would be around 50 BESS
I call it good when I can wave cut magazine paper or receipt paper. This level will definitely shave hair. Where would that fall on the Bess?
User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 27147
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#7

Post by Evil D »

When serrations pluck hair off my arm without touching skin, and/or when they'll push cut phone book paper at 90 degrees further than 1 inch away from where I'm holding it. That last bit is more important than it sounds, it takes a sharper edge to push cut further from your fingers and at 90 degrees to the paper than it does if you cut at an angle going away from your fingers because the paper is more flimsy and more likely to fold than cut if the edge isn't sharp enough.
All SE all the time since 2017
~David
JD Spydo
Member
Posts: 23532
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:53 pm
Location: Blue Springs, Missouri

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#8

Post by JD Spydo »

Soanso McMasters wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 12:03 am
What “test” do you do to confirm an acceptable level of sharpness? Push cutting magazine paper? Push cutting newspaper? Shaving? Hair whittling? There are many ways to confirm varying degrees of sharpness, so what do you call “sharp enough” to suit you?
I have learned some unique tests I've learned over the years to determine sharpness when I'm sharpening any of my Spyderco models. I've found that using cigarette rolling papers or the old Onion Skin typing paper ( extremely flimsy, thin paper) that really show you when trying to determine when you have attained a really superior performing edge.

Just push cutting most any type of paper will usually show you when you have a reasonably good edge for most cutting jobs. But when you can float through cigarette rolling papers or Onion Skin typing paper then you know you've gotten it extremely sharp. Well it works for me anyway.

I am going to continue to watch this thread with intense curiosity to see how most of you determine ultimate sharpness. This is a very interesting subject for me.
User avatar
TkoK83Spy
Member
Posts: 12445
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:32 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#9

Post by TkoK83Spy »

If I touch the edge with the pad of my thumb and it sticks to it a bit, I know I'm good to go. That or popping arm airs without the blade touching my skin also works.

Funny when I first got interested in the sharpening aspect of the hobby, an extremely rough scrape shave that looked like rug burn on my arm would suffice, as long as it shaved at least a couple hairs!

Can't stress practice, patience and light pressure enough when it comes to learning. Those 3 steps will get you a long way.
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

-Rick
User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 27147
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#10

Post by Evil D »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 6:20 am
If I touch the edge with the pad of my thumb and it sticks to it a bit, I know I'm good to go.

This was my method growing up, until I learned that a burr can give you a similar feeling. I'm saying this more for less experienced people who may be reading this than for you specifically. I probably spent the first half of my life unknowingly leaving burrs and thinking I had a sharp edge, only for the edge to practically wipe off in the first few cuts. Then I blamed the steel... we've all seen this vicious circle.
All SE all the time since 2017
~David
User avatar
TkoK83Spy
Member
Posts: 12445
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:32 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#11

Post by TkoK83Spy »

Evil D wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 am
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 6:20 am
If I touch the edge with the pad of my thumb and it sticks to it a bit, I know I'm good to go.

This was my method growing up, until I learned that a burr can give you a similar feeling. I'm saying this more for less experienced people who may be reading this than for you specifically. I probably spent the first half of my life unknowingly leaving burrs and thinking I had a sharp edge, only for the edge to practically wipe off in the first few cuts. Then I blamed the steel... we've all seen this vicious circle.
Good point David. I'm pretty sure I was there at one point too, once I thought I edge retention of various steels was exactly the same after use for a day...until I took a closer look with a loop and realized I wasn't cleaning the apex off the stones. I never blamed the stones, just the science that there was actually a difference in all these steels haha.

We live and learn around here, but like you said...when trying to figure it out, it's a vicious and time consuming cycle! But the rewards are well worth it.
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

-Rick
User avatar
phaust
Member
Posts: 1113
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:20 pm

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#12

Post by phaust »

Whittling hair is sufficient for me.
User avatar
wrdwrght
Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#13

Post by wrdwrght »

My proxy is all about the burr. If I haven’t raised a burr, my blade is sharp.

To detect a burr, I slowly press the edge of my thumbnail outward from the backbevel’s shoulder to the apex. If I get resistance, I’ve got a burr. If I don’t, I continue sampling along the same side of the blade, then do the opposite side in the same way.

To avoid a burr, listen carefully to the late Cliff Stamp’s guidance to sharpening (https://youtu.be/OPGGo3W15HQ). Sometimes I forget…
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
User avatar
nonstainless
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:13 am

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#14

Post by nonstainless »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 6:20 am

... popping arm airs without the blade touching my skin also works.
...
That's the level of sharpness I end up at usually. Unscientific but quick and simple :hugging-face
Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. L11:35
User avatar
cabfrank
Member
Posts: 2857
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 9:07 pm
Location: Northern California, USA, Earth

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#15

Post by cabfrank »

I find it amazing how easy people who are really good at sharpening make it look. I guess that comes with the practice part Rick mentioned.
Soanso McMasters
Member
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:07 am

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#16

Post by Soanso McMasters »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:26 am
Evil D wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 am
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 6:20 am
If I touch the edge with the pad of my thumb and it sticks to it a bit, I know I'm good to go.

This was my method growing up, until I learned that a burr can give you a similar feeling. I'm saying this more for less experienced people who may be reading this than for you specifically. I probably spent the first half of my life unknowingly leaving burrs and thinking I had a sharp edge, only for the edge to practically wipe off in the first few cuts. Then I blamed the steel... we've all seen this vicious circle.
Good point David. I'm pretty sure I was there at one point too, once I thought I edge retention of various steels was exactly the same after use for a day...until I took a closer look with a loop and realized I wasn't cleaning the apex off the stones. I never blamed the stones, just the science that there was actually a difference in all these steels haha.

We live and learn around here, but like you said...when trying to figure it out, it's a vicious and time consuming cycle! But the rewards are well worth it.
After I finish up I like to whittle on a stick for awhile, making sure I use every part of the edge. After that I test sharpness again and figure if it is as sharp as when I finished that I’ve gotten the burr. It’s been working for me thusly, but does this seem sufficient to test for a burr? Or I should say, could a really persistent burr still hold on that long and not be detectable with a light and by finger, and still be very sharp after whittling?
User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 27147
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#17

Post by Evil D »

Soanso McMasters wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 2:08 pm
After I finish up I like to whittle on a stick for awhile, making sure I use every part of the edge. After that I test sharpness again and figure if it is as sharp as when I finished that I’ve gotten the burr. It’s been working for me thusly, but does this seem sufficient to test for a burr? Or I should say, could a really persistent burr still hold on that long and not be detectable with a light and by finger, and still be very sharp after whittling?


You'd know if you had a burr because the edge retention would drop like a rock, and depending on what steel you're dealing with it may even result in fracturing that's so bad it may seem harder to resharpen. This is where we see steels being called "brittle" when it's really just a nasty jagged burr breaking off.
All SE all the time since 2017
~David
User avatar
wrdwrght
Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#18

Post by wrdwrght »

Evil D wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 2:14 pm
Soanso McMasters wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 2:08 pm
After I finish up I like to whittle on a stick for awhile, making sure I use every part of the edge. After that I test sharpness again and figure if it is as sharp as when I finished that I’ve gotten the burr. It’s been working for me thusly, but does this seem sufficient to test for a burr? Or I should say, could a really persistent burr still hold on that long and not be detectable with a light and by finger, and still be very sharp after whittling?


You'd know if you had a burr because the edge retention would drop like a rock, and depending on what steel you're dealing with it may even result in fracturing that's so bad it may seem harder to resharpen. This is where we see steels being called "brittle" when it's really just a nasty jagged burr breaking off.
Such was my view of S30V when I first started here.
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
User avatar
Danvp
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:45 pm

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#19

Post by Danvp »

Slicing newspaper against the grain. This method also kind of detects burrs and possible microchips. I double check for a burr by stropping. It will leave marks.

Never understood the need for hair popping or hair whittling sharp though. What I use my knives for (edc, box cutting, food prep and bushcraft) a very sharp edge won’t last long anyway.
Wandering_About
Member
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:06 am
Location: Earth probably?

Re: Proxy for sharpness

#20

Post by Wandering_About »

Slicing mylar packaging seems to be an excellent test for a burr. One slice through a Clif bar wrapper will instantly fold over any bur that I've left on an edge.
Because desolate places allow us to breathe. And most people don't even know they're out of breath.

MNOSD member #0035
Post Reply