"Talkin' Story" with Mr. Sal Glesser

[bearrowland]

I'll second that, although my life experience is more along Chang's quote

[JSumm]

Hi Bolster,

Thanx for the thread. It does give us an idea of what our customers think is close to ideal for them.

Talkin' Story,

The Caly 3.5 is a very special design for me, keeping in mind that I'm biased. I'm looking forward to the FRN version of the 3.5, (which is designed to be screw construction), which I feel will be the ultimate variation of the concept. The Caly 3, and the 3.5 were designs of love. Kind of a very evolved and refined version of a design that I've been working on for many years. The Calypso, Caly 3, UKPK, Caly 3 and Caly 3.5 are an example of CQI, or Kaizen decades in their refinement.

Ergonomic, User friendly, maximum cut in a easily carried urban format. The "Urban" and "Squeak", and eventually the "Metropolitan are all offshoots of the concept as the concept, in various forms as they came into production over the years.

sal

[Manixguy@1994]

Great bit of history and future products all wrapped up in a nice package . Dan

[Bolster]

What a cool thread. Thanks for starting it JSumm. And thanks for "contributing to it," (LOL) Sal.

[JSumm]

Hi All, I guess this is as good a place as any regarding H1, et al; So let's Talk Story:

Back in the day, when Gail and I began making knives, we were sailors and Scuba divers, so there was always the quest for a salt water material that could cut and resist rust.

We tried numerous materials over the years, keeping an open mind. We spent years testing Titanium, Ceramic, and a variety of steel options. We have Military blades that we cast from cobalt, like David Boye's material. Here, I would like to take off my hat to David as he has consistently produced a worthy product. It just wouldn't work out for us and the volume we wanted.

We tried numerous "special" combinations of alloys created by many custom makers. I remember one piece made for me that I was assured that it would be the ultimate material for Salt Water. I remember holding it in my hands as I jumped off the boat and as I was descending, I could see the rust forming. By the time I hit 60 feet, the entire blade had rusted except where my fingers were holding it. Solutions were challenging to say the least.

The first Nitrogen steel was produced by a foundry in Europe. The material was called Cronidor 30. We contacted them and tried to purchase the material, but they turned us down. They said it was for two reasons; 1) We were an international company and they were concerned that we might sell knives with the material to an unfriendly or unethical Country and they might reverse engineer, disregard their patents and breach their patent. and 2) NASA was buying all they could make.

So you can see that we have been chasing this for quite a while. When the Japanese vendors were showing H1 to anyone that would look, we began testing the material. It was a Nitrogen steel. We certainly wanted to make sure that what we offered to our customers did what we said it would do. No hype. No bullshit. Once we were satisfied that we had a material that could serve the need, we jumped on it with all we had. We had go buy a very large amount and we put millions of dollars into promoting the material. While no one seemed to know the "why" and many were skeptical, we forged ahead making models and promoting the material. Needless to say, we have created a market that was happy with what we did.

There were many that kept questioning and testing and dissing, but I think the history over the past 20 years speaks for itself. As I've said, "The edge is a Ghost" and "H1 is the Shadow of a Ghost". While all of the "tech" involving the material has been fuzzy, Gail and I felt getting the material out to serve our customers needs was more important than the "tech".

After Crucible went bankrupt and divided up the company, the (ex) president knew that I had been chasing Cronidor 30. He set up an Import/Export company and since the patent had expired, he made arrangements for Spyderco to receive Cronidor 30, but we had to call it LC (Low corrosion) 200N. As with H1, we did extensive testing to find it's limitations and added it to the Salt series steel stable.

There have been a number of other nitrogen steels developed over the years, but for some reason, we were not able to obtain any, or they were just too expensive to make reasonably priced production knives.

A few years ago, we were informed that Myodo was going to stop making H1. A shock to be sure. Myodo is a foundry that owned by a Korean conglomerate and who knows how far up the line the decision was made. My guess is some "suit" sleeping with "bottom lines" made and implemented the decision. we were not able to find out any information regarding the decision.

At that time, we and our Japanese partners of 40+ years began the search for a company capable of making a steel with the same properties and a rolling mill to roll the material. After much effort, we "created" H2. We did our normal testing of the material and found it to be as good, if not a bit better than H1. I guess we could have just called it H1, but the chemistry was different and we felt it would be deceptive to say it was the same when it wasn't.

Then Larrin's exceptional MagnaCut appeared on the scene. Knowing Larrin, we felt it would be exceptional, so Eric and Spyderco's engineers began extensive testing to find it's limits. The material tested well in accordance with Larrin's findings, but we found the corrosion resistance to be better than Larrin had guessed. So Eric made a very bold move and introduced MagnaCut as a Salt.

I hope the history helps with the understanding. I believe that someday we will learn more than we know today.....but today we are pleased and proud to be able to offer a variety of cutting tools that can handle the challenging needs of the Salt Water environment.

sal

[JSumm]

Talkin' Story;

In the mid 90's just after we had launched our US factory. I made some decisions about steels. I was a member of the US custom knife-makers Guild since the mid 80's and I learned a lot from the custom makers each show. I was also a member of the ABS (American Blade-smith society). I had been to the original "Hammer In" in Dubois, Wyoming, in 1983, and I had already began forging knives.

Some of the makers in the Guild were using powdered metals and I got a great education from them. Some of them were using CPM powdered metals so I was game. I thought the concept was great and it would be the future of blade steels.

I contacted Crucible Foundry, told them I wanted to use their powdered metals in our pocket knives and we'd be there on Tuesday. We showed up and they said; Who are you and what do you want?

I told them we wanted to use their powdered steels in out knives and we'd use their name in or advertising. We got the first tour of making powdered metals that they had given since they began making powdered steels. (20 years). We ended up selecting CPM 440V, now called CPM-S60V, ordered bunch and that's what began the use of powdered metals in production knives. Vince Ford and his dad, Ron Ford, were very instrumental in this introduction. They were running our factory. We had relocated them from Portland to begin Spyderco's US factory.

At the time, we had Gingami 1, ATS34 (another story for another time) (both Hitachi steels) and that was it. The Military model was introduced as being made from "Crucible's CPM-440V and Hitachi's ATS-34. This is what brought Crucible into the blade steel market and the rest is history. Crucible began working Blade shows and now they are a significant part of the Blade industry, making some of the best Blade Steels in the Industry.

sal

[JSumm]

Talkin' Story:

When we had an audience with the Canadian Crown some time ago, we had 4 knives in court, Rescues. We were trying to nail down a definitive number to be able to build to in order to meet Canadian knife laws. (how many lbs of force needed to be legal).

#1 was stock Rescue and they could flick it open. #2 was tighter (Pivot tightened), but they could still flick it open. #3 was too tight for the officer to flick open, so they went through the court bldg until them found someone, a female police officer, that was very good at inertia opening, and she was able to flick it open. #4 was very tight and couldn't be inertia opened by anyone at Spyderco, and we're pretty good at it. They opened the knife about 60% of the way open, using the opening hole, and then flicked the remainder open and declared it illegal.

Our attorney explained to us that they did not want a definitive number of lbs law because they used this knife test to hold a potential criminal for further investigation. I would suggest a non locker.

sal

[Manixguy@1994]

This thread just gets better every time I read it . Thanks Jeff making this possible.,Dan

[Capt'n Boatsalot]

I agree. Such a treasure trove of a thread.

[JSumm]

Sal talking about the Massad Ayoob Sprint and the return of the Moki factory.

I was able to hear this story from Sal personally at Blade Show this year. Grateful for the opportunity, and learning from the loyalty.

Talkin' Story;

We began working with this maker in 1988. At the time, they were considered by most experts, even in Japan to be THE premier quality knife maker in the world. It is/was a small family business consisting of the "Old Man", who was the driving force. He had more than 80 patents on his designs and they produced a small number pieces.

The "Old Man's" wife handled the office. There were two sons. One handled sales (#2 son) and one handled the factory with his father (#1 son). His wife also helped with the office.

Then one day, with no warning, the Father had a stroke and was no longer able to work. The Father's wife had to stop working to take care of the Father. Now the sons are running the company with the Patriarch and the Patriarch's Wife no longer involved. Very challenging, even devastating. They had one major lower quality customer (A Hardware chain) that carried the company. A few special customers like Spyderco and their normal consumer direct line.

Then "The Rains came". In one year, the Father passed away. The Mother passed away. #1 son had a stroke, and #1's son's wife passed away. Now the Grandson is running the factory and he really wasn't ready. Then the main Hardware chain found a less expensive supplier. The family was devastated.

We brought the Grandson to our factory in Golden to try to get him better trained and brought into the 21st Century manufacturing. Ir has been a long road and they are beginning to get back on track which pleases us and we're helping.

All of the people that headed up and made the original model 11 years ago are no longer alive, and this project was a major mountain to climb just to be able to make them. We're very proud of their achievement in this Sprint, while not perfect, is a major milestone in their rebirth. Those of you that are disappointed, you have my apologies, and if you are not pleased to accept the "funky tooth", you should return the piece and let someone else have it. We will not likely make this model again as we encourage and help the family restore their skill.

sal

[JSumm]

Talkin' Story;

About 22+ years ago, while working with Fred Perrin, I was intrigued with his "finger Ring" Concept. Fred is a brilliant designer and a very smart guy. I recognize that Fred designed the "Finger Ring" so you could "park" the knife, to free your fingers, without re-sheathing. But another very important feature of this concept is that the knife now becomes part of your hand. Fred figured this out very early on and he designed a self defense knife called "La Grif". Little more than a short blade, a finger Ring and a lanyard to make up the balance of the handle. Fred is a minimalist and "La Grif" certainly was that.

Fred's model was knocked off by many over the years, with few giving him credit for his brilliant concept. (FYI, Spyderco has paid Fred a Royalty for every "Finger Ring" knife I designed over the past decades).

I learned a bit about "defanging the snake", (Knocking a knife out of an opponents hand) while taking the "Riddle of Steel" with the Great James Keating, the concept stuck. While getting MBC pointers from Michael Janich, another brilliant designer and very smart guy, Mike taught me a number of ways to "defang the snake". This is a very important concept when thinking of using a blade for self defense. Michael was Spyderco's instructor in Martial Blade Craft and he taught classes at Spyderco. BTW, Michael still teaches through his Martial Blade Concepts school.

I realized that the most important thing about using a knife for self defense is to not drop the knife. The first model that I designed was a neck knife, using Fred's"Finger Ring" with a bit more handle than his "La Grif". It was called the "SPOT". (Self Protection Option Tool). We did a few runs and I learned quite a bot about what I was doing. We couldn't sell the knife in the UK because it is illegal to defend yourself in the UK. So I don't call the Swicks a dedicated SD knife. Which is good because it has a lot of other features that have nothing to do with self Defense.

Then I designed a couple of Diving knives using the "Finger Ring", again, to avoid dropping the knife into the deep. These too were offered as production models to the general market. One with a point and one pointless?

The next chapter was to design the Swicks. (Swift + Quick = Swick). I designed versions 1 through 5 using different blade shapes and Finger Ring sizes, made about 500 each and sold them consumer direct to get feedback. Once satisfied, I designed the Swick 5 & 6 and we went into production. Micheal's Wharncliffe blade shape and Fred's Finger Ring and sal's ergos. I should have called it the "Perrich" (Perrin & Janich), but Swick sounded more marketable.

The knife can be held in your pocket with your finger in the Ring. The sheath can be "popped" off with the thumb so two hands are not necessary to free the blade. It can also be used as a neck knife or a clipped to a belt.

Then we ran into sheath mfg issues that took a llooonngg time to solve. My apologies. Just some history to share.

sal

[skeeg11]

Would the pointless be the blunt Caspian?

[cabfrank]

There are many great things about this forum, but none better than talkin' story with sal. Thanks JSumm, and of course, sal.

[Ramonade]

Nice to read a bit of story about Sal and Fredo. I met a guy in France that is close friend with Fred Perrin. Mr. Perrin was coming back from Blade Show with Subway Bowies, I almost got one brought and signed by him but we asked too late ! Such a misfortune

[JSumm]

Hi Doc,

Might be time to talk a little story here;

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it began for me in 1983. I had been making knives for a couple of years and being a bit OC, I decided that there were things that I should learn to do if I was going to be an effective knife-maker. One was to learn to forge and the other was to learn to shave with a straight razor.

I began both in 1983 at the First Forging Seminar in Dubois, Wyoming. It was a really special event hosted by; Bill Moran, Bill Bagwell and Don Hastings. I really learned a lot, though I must admit much of it was over my head and this "blade-steel stuff" was slow coming in. Persistence is King.

I was staying in a camper and the first day of the seminar was also the first time I shaved with a straight razor. I couldn't find a teacher from whom to learn the art, as most barbers were using "switch-blades" for their straight razors. I actually pulled out my microscope and experimented for several months learning how to sharpen and strop a razor and experimented to see what would work best.

I boiled up a pan of water, lathered up and shaved. Obviously, I made a number of mistakes and with little pieces of paper stuck to my face, I attended the first day of the seminar. I'll never forget the line, but one of the attendees from Canada said; "What choo been doing sal, you look like you been trying to shove butter up a wild cat's *** with a hot ice pick".

That's where I learned about Banite. It seemed to be some magical transition phase in heat treat that little was known about. I made a mental note to eventually learn about Banite. When my old friend Dr. Mike Blue told me he was making straight razors out of Banite 35 years later, the project began. It's been held up due to COVID and some health issues, but as soon as Mike and Ed can get together and build my "salt pot" heat treating apparatus, we'll pick it up again.

Regarding what I've used; I've used a variety of Straight razors, both non stainless and stainless, always trying new tools. I do have a very old straight razor that I'v not used, thanx Larry. I've tried different sizes and shapes. I ground one down to be very short to see if that helped in tight areas. I resharpened a Bob Terzuola knife and shaved with it. I ground the tip off of a K05 kitchen knife, soldered a spine to be able to sharpen it, and shaved with it all through the Fair circut one year. I was pitching our kitchen knives at County and State fairs and while I was going through each of the knives, when I got to the K05, I said; "You may not believe this, but I shave with one of these every day". Naturally,everyone watching laughed and didn't believe it, but it was actually true and my own private joke. It didn't have a folding handle,so I made a small wood stand for it to live in to protect the edge. I might still have it around somewhere.

I'm looking forward to picking up the project again as I'm anxious to use the Salt Pots. I don't know that I'll shave much with the razors we make. Once our eyes start to go, trying to shave with glasses on has it's challenges, but I'm sure I'll try.

sal

[Doc Dan]

I read that and spit my coffee out I was laughing so hard. That would make a great name for a straight razor, as someone else mentioned. Anyway, it was good to hear his thoughts and some history on this.

[apollo]

Nice to read a bit of story about Sal and Fredo. I met a guy in France that is close friend with Fred Perrin. Mr. Perrin was coming back from Blade Show with Subway Bowies, I almost got one brought and signed by him but we asked too late ! Such a misfortune

Lady’s and gents read the new book from Ramonade its about Sal & fredo and the lord of the subway Bowies…

[Manixguy@1994]

Jeff , thank you for starting and keeping up with this thread . Sorry I’m out of memes for you . Dan

[JSumm]

Haha! No worries Dan.

[JSumm]

I should probably add some info to the thread:

We worked with Larrin and Shawn to optimize the heat treat on MagnaCut. We nailed that down some time ago. The delay with the Native MagnaCut model was in tank testing materials that could work with MagnaCut as a salt (no galvanic reaction to materials) We did quite a bit of tank testing and we finally have that nailed down as well. Gail is testing a MagnaCut Native now, and they should be shipping soon.

We worked with Shawn to optimize the heat treat for 15V. He said there was a significant difference in the performance of 15V with his HT as opposed to "regular" HT. We did extensive testing on Shawn's version and CATRA tests proved out his statement. That's why we made the knife with his HT which is still proving to be exceptional.

CTS-BD1N was a different project.

Talkin' Story:

We worked with Carpenter for several years to help the develop their blade steels. Testing CATRA and corrosion and going back and forth with suggestions and more testing. When we finally had all of their blade steels down, Their head Metallurgist came to me and asked what they could do for us to thank us for our helping them.

I asked them to make a steel that we were importing from Japan called Gingami 1. There was no American equivalent. 440B is similar, but the perfornance of Gingami 1 was far superior to 440B. I asked them to reproduce the chemistry and then "tweak" it for greater performance. After much testing, CTS-BD1 was the new steel, and performance was even better than I had expected.

I had hoped to "own" the alloy, but that was not to be. The steel was too good to just limit to Spyderco. In conference with Carpenter, I had mentioned our using "G2" as the steel marked on blades in earlier models, as we couldn't use Gingami 1 at the time. I told them that G2 stood for "Good **** Also". We later converted the G2 to GIN 1 when we were larger and had more clout.

Carpenter showed their good humor when they came up with "CTS" which stood for "Carpenter Good ****", bit if pressed, they say it stands for Carpenter Tool Steels.

CTS-BD1 is proving to be an exceptional alloy punching far above it's weight and shouldn't be written off as 440B.

Hope that helps.

sal