Any more true MBC knives in the pipeline

[Accutron]

So what about all the new-production foreign-made switchblades and balisongs that are being openly sold on the Internet and through dealers? They are being imported in violation of the Customs regulation. It's that simple.

Maxace is a major Chinese manufacturer of high end balisongs. Their balis are shipped as parts and assembled by either the dealer or the end user, which I believe is in compliance with the law. Similarly, companies like Cobratec have their OTFs manufactured overseas and shipped as parts, then assemble them in the USA.

[Jim Malone]

I asked Bastinelli a few weeks if he was going to bring out more pikal reverse edge knives like the Anomaly. He told me that a new pikal blade was not in the pipeline because he had himself limited knowledge about Pikal knife use and needed more training in reverse edge techniques before he would design another one. The mako could be easily adapted to reverse edge or double edge but Bastinelli will only design a knife if he feels it works for him as well. He said he needed to study the style more

[sal]

So what about all the new-production foreign-made switchblades and balisongs that are being openly sold on the Internet and through dealers? They are being imported in violation of the Customs regulation. It's that simple.

Maxace is a major Chinese manufacturer of high end balisongs. Their balis are shipped as parts and assembled by either the dealer or the end user, which I believe is in compliance with the law. Similarly, companies like Cobratec have their OTFs manufactured overseas and shipped as parts, then assemble them in the USA.

Thanx much Mike.

Hi Accutron,

I read the federal law very carefully including all of the linked references. At the time it stated very clearly that to import "switchblade parts", they CANNOT be assembled by the end line user and must require some processing by the importer before they can be sold. The law was revised because "the Edge" company was importing autos that were separate from the spring and you had to put the spring in yourself.

We imported 51 shipments of balisong parts and we had to process the parts before they could be assembled. We/I thought were were completely withing the requirements. They didn't care.

sal

[cabfrank]

Don't play when you can't win, I guess. At least in certain cases.

[ZrowsN1s]

Hey, All:

Thanks for a fascinating discussion about one of my favorite topics.

With regard to a Z-Cut-style defensive knife, the Bastinelli Mako design--and many of his other designs--already comes very close: https://www.tacticalelements.com/bastin ... ixed-mako/.
............

Stay safe,

Mike

I asked Bastinelli a few weeks if he was going to bring out more pikal reverse edge knives like the Anomaly. He told me that a new pikal blade was not in the pipeline because he had himself limited knowledge about Pikal knife use and needed more training in reverse edge techniques before he would design another one. The mako could be easily adapted to reverse edge or double edge but Bastinelli will only design a knife if he feels it works for him as well. He said he needed to study the style more

Hi Mike, I'm a fan of Bastinelli's designs and I am aware of the Mako folder and fixed blade. Though they are visually similar the mako is not a reverse edge knife and couldn't be modified into one either. The biggest obvious problem is it being a flat ground knife with the edge on the wrong side for reverse edge, the flat grind making it not possible or practical to put an edge on the reverse side. The less obvious problem is the curve of the blade. If you look at the Z-cut design I posted and the Mako side by side you'll see the Mako in reverse position has more of a hawkbill curve where the Z-cut has a curve more like the Spyderco P'kal. This could make a big difference in penetration or at the very least the angle you have to hold your wrist at. Last big difference is the ergonomics of the handles. The Z-cut handle feels very good in reverse grip as is and it doesn't have the Karambit style ring. The reverse edge methodology I study discourages the use of retention rings because of their potential to cause injury to the user. Regardless of the validity of that assessment, I prefer the more neutral Z-cut handle shape. And as Jim points out Bastinelli has no plans to make another reverse edge knife at this time.

Aside from the edge being on the wrong side I realize we're basically talking about the difference between an 'S' shape and a 'Z' shape, but I think it does make a significant difference.

[Michael Janich]

So what about all the new-production foreign-made switchblades and balisongs that are being openly sold on the Internet and through dealers? They are being imported in violation of the Customs regulation. It's that simple.

Maxace is a major Chinese manufacturer of high end balisongs. Their balis are shipped as parts and assembled by either the dealer or the end user, which I believe is in compliance with the law. Similarly, companies like Cobratec have their OTFs manufactured overseas and shipped as parts, then assemble them in the USA.

As Sal pointed out, this is not in compliance with the law.

To be more specific, the Customs regulation specifically addresses a thing called "insignificant preliminary preparation." Basically, any parts that can be easily assembled into a finished product that qualifies under the definition of a switchblade, gravity knife, balisong, etc. are illegal to import.

Below is the text if the customs definition with that term highlighted in context, as well as its definition in paragraph (b). Note also paragraph 3, which is what put Edge Company out of business.

§ 12.95 Definitions.
Terms as used in §§12.96 through 12.103 of this part are defined as follows:
(a) Switchblade knife. ‘‘Switchblade knife’’ means any imported knife, or components thereof, or any class of imported knife, including ‘‘switchblade’’, ‘‘Balisong’’, ‘‘butterfly’’, ‘‘gravity’’ or ‘‘ballistic’’ knives, which has one or
more of the following characteristics or identities:
(1) A blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button or device in the handle of the knife,
or any knife with a blade which opens automatically by operation of inertia, gravity, or both;
(2) Knives which, by insignificant preliminary preparation, as described in paragraph (b) of this section, can be
altered or converted so as to open automatically by hand pressure applied to a button or device in the handle of the
knife or by operation of inertia, gravity, or both;
(3) Unassembled knife kits or knife handles without blades which, when fully assembled with added blades,
springs, or other parts, are knives which open automatically by hand pressure applied to a button or device
in the handle of the knife or by operation of inertia, gravity, or both; or
(4) Knives with a detachable blade that is propelled by a spring-operated mechanism, and components thereof.
(b) Insignificant preliminary preparation. ‘‘Insignificant preliminary preparation’’ means preparation with the
use of ordinarily available tools, instruments, devices, and materials by one having no special manual training
or skill for the purpose of modifying blade heels, relieving binding parts, altering spring restraints, or making
similar minor alterations which can be accomplished in a relatively short period of time.


Just because some companies are doing it without regard for the law doesn't make it legal.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Michael Janich]

Hi Mike, I'm a fan of Bastinelli's designs and I am aware of the Mako folder and fixed blade. Though they are visually similar the mako is not a reverse edge knife and couldn't be modified into one either. The biggest obvious problem is it being a flat ground knife with the edge on the wrong side for reverse edge, the flat grind making it not possible or practical to put an edge on the reverse side. The less obvious problem is the curve of the blade. If you look at the Z-cut design I posted and the Mako side by side you'll see the Mako in reverse position has more of a hawkbill curve where the Z-cut has a curve more like the Spyderco P'kal. This could make a big difference in penetration or at the very least the angle you have to hold your wrist at. Last big difference is the ergonomics of the handles. The Z-cut handle feels very good in reverse grip as is and it doesn't have the Karambit style ring. The reverse edge methodology I study discourages the use of retention rings because of their potential to cause injury to the user. Regardless of the validity of that assessment, I prefer the more neutral Z-cut handle shape. And as Jim points out Bastinelli has no plans to make another reverse edge knife at this time.

Aside from the edge being on the wrong side I realize we're basically talking about the difference between an 'S' shape and a 'Z' shape, but I think it does make a significant difference.

I understand and agree with your comments. I was simply noting that there is a strong cosmetic similarity between the design you proposed and the Mako. Some of Bastinelli's other designs have a similar profile and theme. Since we pride ourselves on working ethically with custom collaborators and respecting the artistic and intellectual property work of others, I see that as a significant concern.

The biggest challenge I see with your proposed design would be edge geometry. The narrow, double-edged blade would necessitate steep bevels that would not take a keen edge. Jason Knight's Knight Elements Voodoo faced that same challenge, but could not overcome it in a production format. The alternative is to use thin blade stock, which poses its own problems.

Stay safe,

Mike

[ZrowsN1s]

Hi Mike, I'm a fan of Bastinelli's designs and I am aware of the Mako folder and fixed blade. Though they are visually similar the mako is not a reverse edge knife and couldn't be modified into one either. The biggest obvious problem is it being a flat ground knife with the edge on the wrong side for reverse edge, the flat grind making it not possible or practical to put an edge on the reverse side. The less obvious problem is the curve of the blade. If you look at the Z-cut design I posted and the Mako side by side you'll see the Mako in reverse position has more of a hawkbill curve where the Z-cut has a curve more like the Spyderco P'kal. This could make a big difference in penetration or at the very least the angle you have to hold your wrist at. Last big difference is the ergonomics of the handles. The Z-cut handle feels very good in reverse grip as is and it doesn't have the Karambit style ring. The reverse edge methodology I study discourages the use of retention rings because of their potential to cause injury to the user. Regardless of the validity of that assessment, I prefer the more neutral Z-cut handle shape. And as Jim points out Bastinelli has no plans to make another reverse edge knife at this time.

Aside from the edge being on the wrong side I realize we're basically talking about the difference between an 'S' shape and a 'Z' shape, but I think it does make a significant difference.

I understand and agree with your comments. I was simply noting that there is a strong cosmetic similarity between the design you proposed and the Mako. Some of Bastinelli's other designs have a similar profile and theme. Since we pride ourselves on working ethically with custom collaborators and respecting the artistic and intellectual property work of others, I see that as a significant concern.

The biggest challenge I see with your proposed design would be edge geometry. The narrow, double-edged blade would necessitate steep bevels that would not take a keen edge. Jason Knight's Knight Elements Voodoo faced that same challenge, but could not overcome it in a production format. The alternative is to use thin blade stock, which poses its own problems.

Stay safe,

Mike

I see what you mean. I thought perhaps since it's already a Spyderco design, that might not be an issue as it's lineage can be clearly shown, but I understand why Spyderco might not want to risk the comparison.

That said, if they did want to do it, maybe a saber or full flat reverse edge could overcome the issue with being able to get a sharp edge? It wouldn't work for traditional reverse grip techniques anymore, but it would still work extremely well for reverse edge technique.

On the issue of it looking too much like Bastinelli's designs the original blade profile could be kept, though you'd lose some penetration ability. This was the first sketch I drew of the Z-cut dagger. Just imagine it with a single full flat reverse edge grind instead of a dagger grind.


Edit*
Here better picture

[Jim Malone]

I have been looking for a P'kal in Europe for quit some time at my top 3 online knife shops without result. A few months ago i decided to buy the closest thing available and found the Kizer Inversion. Designed by Dirk Pinkerton the knife is a very well made reverse edge folder about the size of the P'kal. Still waiting for the P'kal to reach the shores of Europe again. I have an notification from several knife shops if it ever goes back into stock. I think the Inversion is a nice alternative albeit the Ti machined handle could become too slippery in the event of MBC usage. Another unobtainable for me is the Emerson Elvia.

For a fixed blade i like the Tops Unzipper, the Shivworks Disciple and Clinch pick ( i use mine in Pikal) and i'm still looking for a Reverse.

The problem with a double edged blade is that it was traditionally used as a pure stabbing weapon a la Fairbairn Sykes with a hammer grip. In and out. If you use a well designed double edge weapon in a pikal style the weapon could pose a danger to your alive hand. You are not pushing your hand away from yourself in a linear motion but you use pushing and blocking motion where the alive hand could come into the path of your knife and you could cut yourself. The double edged karambit has the same problem. I dabbled with the karambit but it just wasn't for me. I can recommend steve Tarani's book on the Karambit but i never really learned to properly use a karambit. I like to watch Doug Marcaida using it but for me it never felt right for me.
MBC knives have always attracted my interest. I have seen what devastation a knife in skilled, and unskilled, hands can do to a human body. I hope i will never, ever, find myself in a situation where all other options have run out (owning let alone carrying firearms is out of the question here) and i have to use a knife to defend myself or someone else. But if i need to do it i like to have the best one available. And Spyderco provides us with Tools that also carry the MBC label where you know your EDC knife can act as a reliable tool in a Self defense situation when all other options run out.

[ZrowsN1s]

Though I prefer the Pkal because of the lock and better deployment, I really like the Elvia (I have 2). But they're impossible to get a hold of and honestly $100 over priced. I just helped a friend get one of their black coated ones, she doesn't spend her days looking at knives so her odds of getting one were near zero. I had to stalk their IG page for a few months and shell out $350 after tax and shipping.

[twinboysdad]

Though I prefer the Pkal because of the lock and better deployment, I really like the Elvia (I have 2). But they're impossible to get a hold of and honestly $100 over priced. I just helped a friend get one of their black coated ones, she doesn't spend her days looking at knives so her odds of getting one were near zero. I had to stalk their IG page for a few months and shell out $350 after tax and shipping.

Agree on Elvia price. I really like Ed and want to support but have never had great luck with EKI and feel like that’s about a $150 set up tops. The scarcity would counter all I have said though. It does seem contradictory that the cheap fruit knife becomes a tactical folder and sells for the price of a gun

[ZrowsN1s]

250-275 would at least put the Elvia in line with the other knives they sell. The extra is probably because it's not an in house design. Obviously I think it's worth it as I've bought more than one, but it leaves quite the dent in your wallet.

The Spyderco P'kal is the lowest priced folder and Shivworks Clinchpik lowest priced fixed blade reverse knife (that I know of). The P'kal is very hard to come by right now. I know a few places in Canada that have them for sale, but that's it.

Most reverse edge knives are custom or limited production knives and folders and are very expensive. While I don't think they will ever be a mainstream success, it's a small market and will remain a small market. There is currently a huge hole in that market. I'm very excited for the lil p'kal. I will likely buy 2 and a trainer if they make one.

[JRinFL]

I had to look up the Elvia. EKI has the all black in-stock now on their site. For me it is too specialized for my wants. The Reverse was just general enough to be useful for other things, same with the ARK and Street Bowie, etc. I’m no practitioner, so take what I say with a nice cube of NaCl.

[thewoodpecker]

Hi Jim,

I asked for gray FRN, red trainer and a new steel. Any preferences on steel for the live blade. The trainer would be 420J2.

sal

What are our options?
I'd go H1 over VG10. Cruwear or Magnacut seems a solid choice especially for a fixed blade.

[sal]

The more I think about it, the fewer options I see. This maker does not have access to steels like H1, Cruwear or MagnaCut. Might have to be VG-10. It's good, tough, versatile, very corrosion resistant, not as expensive as an exotic steel in cost and processing costs. Of all of the Japanese Foundries. I think it's the best option for this maker.

Do we want teeth?

sal

[Stuart Ackerman]

Teeth?

Oh Yes Please !!!

[Jim Malone]

I like VG10. Teeth are not needed for me. But i think people like JDSpydo and other forumites prefer teeth on a blade. I do recall testing by Dr Lecter a few years ago, where teeth decreased penetration and slicing ability on meat sleeve so don't know if it is beneficial on a MBC knife. You also have the problem of sharpening the knife later on and might decrease it's usefullness as a camp and kitchen knife.

[Bemo]

I don't have a problem with VG10 as long as it means there's a chance for this model to make a re-appearance. Like so many cool designs, they were long out of production by the time I became a Spyderco afi.

[vivi]

count me in for a vg10 temp 1 re-issue.

[SchoonerBum]

In the absence of any of the salt steels, a coated VG-10 blade would be wonderful. I'd prefer toothless.