We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

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metaphoricalsimile
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We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#1

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

Like, I get it, there's really great enthusiasm for this really great new steel.

If we look at it from a numbers-only point of view (source) we can see that the steel offers *amazing* corrosion resistance with *good* toughness, and *average* edge retention (for PM steels anyways). I think we also need to recognize that these numbers were generated by the person who created the steel and stands to financially benefit from the sale of the steel. Given this, I also have tracked his articles for a long time, and I do not actually doubt his claims, but I also think that good science requires for claims to be duplicated before they are widely accepted. That being said, I will go ahead and take his numbers as either correct, or close enough for the purposes of this discussion.

So, what knives benefit from this mix of amazing corrosion resistance, average edge retention, and good toughness? I think an obvious answer is general-use work folders, the kind that people are going to be using for manual labor that benefit greatly from edge stability during a variety of tasks, and where the user won't want to spend a lot of time or effort on maintenance, and don't want to worry about using for tasks that might get moisture into the pivot. This is, in fact, a lot of knives, and really represents a lot of spyderco's bread-and-butter designs. I think that Magnacut may actually be as close to a "perfect" steel for knives like the paramilitary line, natives, sage, etc. as there can be among commonly-available knife steels.

So, what about the knives that don't actually see as much benefit from Magnacut, as my title suggests? Well, let's talk about the properties that can be more or less important for different types of knives. Very small knives tend to do more cutting with less available cutting edge, so they can benefit a lot more from higher edge retention. Fixed blade knives are easy to keep oiled and don't have mechanisms to maintain, so they don't necessarily need high corrosion resistance. Knives that are going to see "hard use" such as chopping or batoning may favor toughness a bit more over edge retention.

Currently, people seem to be clamoring for Magnacut in literally every knife, but knives with edge length equal to or less than the Dragonfly I just don't see it as being an ideal steel for them. I know a lot of people poo-poo S30V, but I think the general class of higher-edge-retention, mediocre-toughness stainless powder metallurgy steels are probably better for these folders.

I do think that Magnacut is probably going to be a brilliant steel for general-purpose fixed blade knives, however I can also see people who might value M4 more due to its significantly better edge retention with a smidge less toughness, or LC200N for being basically impervious to corrosion and extremely high toughness allowing for good edge stability coupled with kinda-pretty-okish edge retention.

In summation, I do think it's going to be a great steel, and I think Spyderco's decision for the Native 5 Salt to be the first official magnacut spyderco is an excellent one, but I also think a lot of people are just asking for the shiny new hotness rather than actually thinking about what steels are best for which use cases.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#2

Post by TomAiello »

I'm loving magnacut. But it won't replace K390 (as one example). It's a great, balanced, all around steel. It's not the 'one steel to rule them all'.

I want to make myself some magnacut kitchen knives and live with them for a while to see what I think. My initial results using the Mule in the kitchen are very good.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#3

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

TomAiello wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:44 pm
I'm loving magnacut. But it won't replace K390 (as one example). It's a great, balanced, all around steel. It's not the 'one steel to rule them all'.

I want to make myself some magnacut kitchen knives and live with them for a while to see what I think. My initial results using the Mule in the kitchen are very good.
Yeah, the toughness/hardness combo makes me assume it'll survive dismantling chickens and cutting on boards really well.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#4

Post by JRinFL »

I would tend agree on the smaller knives issue if I didn't realize that most people use their little knives for very simple tasks that even 1095 has no issues keeping up with. The added corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening of MC are more important to many people. Look at how many Victorinox knives are sold yearly. That is a much better indication of how these little knives are being used.

That said, the edge retention folks will always clamor for more edge retention. Sal & Eric are steel junkies, so there will always be options to MC. At least from Spyderco.
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metaphoricalsimile
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#5

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

JRinFL wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:46 pm
ease of sharpening of MC are more important to many people
Without seeing some sort of objective data about ease of sharpening I hesitate to believe it's any easier to sharpen than other steels with similar carbide content and wear resistance.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#6

Post by Cl1ff »

I agree, but the steel’s apparent versatility/well-roundedness is understandably attractive.
It’s probably one of the best choices for most stainless fixed blades because of its similar practical attributes to 4v and Cruwear + excellent corrosion resistance.

Though, I really do agree with the “all good just different” sentiment.
For example, Spy27 is very attractive to me for its combination of characteristics like edge retention + excellent sharpenability.
rex121 is the king of steel, but nature’s teeth have been cutting for hundreds of millions of years and counting :cool:
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#7

Post by yablanowitz »

Frankly, my experience with my Magnacut Mule so far makes me think we don't need to Magnacut any of them, much less all of them. For something supposedly "tough" it sure chips easily, at least in my work environment.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#8

Post by Toucan »

Knives as a hobby is rarely about need. There are sub 3" knives in 3V and 7" combat knives in s30v.

It's fun to try out different properties in different form factors.

I would like MagnaCut in as many models as feasible as long as it doesn't hurt the diversity of other steels available for models.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#9

Post by JRinFL »

yablanowitz wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:22 pm
Frankly, my experience with my Magnacut Mule so far makes me think we don't need to Magnacut any of them, much less all of them. For something supposedly "tough" it sure chips easily, at least in my work environment.
Interesting. Did you see this post by Fullscaler? viewtopic.php?p=1587031#p1587031
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#10

Post by JRinFL »

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:47 pm
JRinFL wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:46 pm
ease of sharpening of MC are more important to many people
Without seeing some sort of objective data about ease of sharpening I hesitate to believe it's any easier to sharpen than other steels with similar carbide content and wear resistance.
Is there an objective way to measure sharpenabilty* (relative ease of sharpening)? I honestly do not know. Of course, there are methods to objectively measure final sharpness.

Here is a non-objective thread on MC sharpening ease, in case you have not seen it. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=91306

*Edited to add that I might be using this incorrectly.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#11

Post by intrancewetrust »

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:47 pm
JRinFL wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:46 pm
ease of sharpening of MC are more important to many people
Without seeing some sort of objective data about ease of sharpening I hesitate to believe it's any easier to sharpen than other steels with similar carbide content and wear resistance.
how "easy" something is to sharpen is rather subjective though... obviously being able to remove material is paramount (and abrasive dependent) but the real devil seems to be in the details, like how easy/reliable it is to remove the wire edge cleanly (i am not sure what influences this exactly) and how likely you are to get tear outs and microchipping (you can probably estimate this by examining the structure under a microscope).

a super tough steel might tolerate a very rough and toothy edge so be very quick and easy to sharpen for one person, but taking it right down to a highly polished edge might be quite difficult and time consuming so another person rates it differently....
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#12

Post by tonijedi »

MagnaCut them all? Obviously not, just the ones I want and can afford.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#13

Post by ZrowsN1s »

I didn't bring it up in the Jester thread, but since you've started a thread dedicated to the topic I will say that I don't see a use case where S30V would be better than Magnacut even in a small folder.

Trusting Larrins work (and I do), we're talking
toughness/edge retention/corrosion resistance
S30V 4/6/7.5 vs MC 7/5/9.5

Stainless might not be everyones priority, but it's obviously better than not stainless. Toughness might not be your priority but again it's better than not tough. You show me S30V and Magnacut with only a marginal difference in edge retention and I say objectively Magnacut is the better steel. And that has nothing to do with it being trendy. In a small folder there is no question MC fits my use case better than S30V. In any size folder if you value a good balance of capabilities, Magnacut is a strong choice, I gather that was the point of making the steel that way. Even if you value the extremes S30V isn't a better choice.

I know people are excited by 'the new thing' and cool steel names. But the hype around Magnacut I think is for it's balance of properties.

Also I think in terms of toughness people think only of prying, toughness is important for thin edges ability to resist rolling and chipping. Thats valuable on any size edge.

Now ask me what's my preference in steel. Glad you asked. I like high edge retention. S90V, S110V, MAXAMET, ZDP-189, K390. And if I were looking for a knife with high edge retention I'd pick one of those over Magnacut, not S30V.

Now S30V vs S35VN vs S45VN I'd take S30V because the advantages of the others aren't compelling enough, and I'd rather have the edge retention. Magnacuts advantages are compelling enough to make me choose it over S30V.

I want a variety of choices, in my knives, I like ultra stainless knives, I like high wear resistant knives, I like tough knives, I like well balanced knives. Magnacut checks a lot of those boxes. And like it or not, people are going to Magnacut *all* the knives. And justifiably so. There's not a model in Spyderco's lineup that wouldn't benefit from it for the people that favor balanced steel properties. Similarly I feel the same about S90V for its high wear resistance.

I hope no one starts a thread telling me we can't K390 or S90V all the knives just because that's not their thing.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#14

Post by intrancewetrust »

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:56 pm
I didn't bring it up in the Jester thread, but since you've started a thread dedicated to the topic I will say that I don't see a use case where S30V would be better than Magnacut even in a small folder.

Trusting Larrins work (and I do), we're talking
toughness/edge retention/corrosion resistance
S30V 4/6/7.5 vs MC 7/5/9.5

Stainless might not be everyones priority, but it's obviously better than not stainless. Toughness might not be your priority but again it's better than not tough. You show me S30V and Magnacut with only a marginal difference in edge retention and I say objectively Magnacut is the better steel. And that has nothing to do with it being trendy. In a small folder there is no question MC fits my use case better than S30V. In any size folder if you value a good balance of capabilities, Magnacut is a strong choice, I gather that was the point of making the steel that way. Even if you value the extremes S30V isn't a better choice.
i will play the devils advocate here, and say that if something is "stainless enough" and "tough enough" for what im using it for, then it all comes down to edge retention so one could objectively say the S30V is the better steel for their use case
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#15

Post by Evil D »

This is all 100% subjective. For my uses I could MagnaCut everything and be thoroughly satisfied (well, assuming that it also performs well in SE). I could do the same with many steels though.


I'll be honest I'm kinda getting a kick out of how salty (pun intended) the wear resistant crowd is getting over the popularity of this steel. For once a good steel comes along that isn't designed to cut 10 miles of cardboard and some of you just can't let the rest of us be happy about it.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#16

Post by Deadboxhero »

Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:02 pm
This is all 100% subjective. For my uses I could MagnaCut everything and be thoroughly satisfied (well, assuming that it also performs well in SE). I could do the same with many steels though.


I'll be honest I'm kinda getting a kick out of how salty (pun intended) the wear resistant crowd is getting over the popularity of this steel. For once a good steel comes along that isn't designed to cut 10 miles of cardboard and some of you just can't let the rest of us be happy about it.
I don't think thats whats going on here
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#17

Post by Evil D »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:12 pm
Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:02 pm
This is all 100% subjective. For my uses I could MagnaCut everything and be thoroughly satisfied (well, assuming that it also performs well in SE). I could do the same with many steels though.


I'll be honest I'm kinda getting a kick out of how salty (pun intended) the wear resistant crowd is getting over the popularity of this steel. For once a good steel comes along that isn't designed to cut 10 miles of cardboard and some of you just can't let the rest of us be happy about it.
I don't think thats whats going on here



Not everyone but some people are taking every chance they can to downplay this steel. I understand trying to stay grounded and one step ahead of the hype but like I said in another post, the performance with this steel isn't exactly a secret anymore, other makers have been making blades and using them for months so we're basically at the "see it for myself" stage now. Lots of people are acting like it has something to live up to as if it hasn't already proven to be exactly what it was sold to us as being.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#18

Post by Eli Chaps »

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:32 pm
Like, I get it, there's really great enthusiasm for this really great new steel.

If we look at it from a numbers-only point of view (source) we can see that the steel offers *amazing* corrosion resistance with *good* toughness, and *average* edge retention (for PM steels anyways). I think we also need to recognize that these numbers were generated by the person who created the steel and stands to financially benefit from the sale of the steel. Given this, I also have tracked his articles for a long time, and I do not actually doubt his claims, but I also think that good science requires for claims to be duplicated before they are widely accepted. That being said, I will go ahead and take his numbers as either correct, or close enough for the purposes of this discussion.

So, what knives benefit from this mix of amazing corrosion resistance, average edge retention, and good toughness? I think an obvious answer is general-use work folders, the kind that people are going to be using for manual labor that benefit greatly from edge stability during a variety of tasks, and where the user won't want to spend a lot of time or effort on maintenance, and don't want to worry about using for tasks that might get moisture into the pivot. This is, in fact, a lot of knives, and really represents a lot of spyderco's bread-and-butter designs. I think that Magnacut may actually be as close to a "perfect" steel for knives like the paramilitary line, natives, sage, etc. as there can be among commonly-available knife steels.

So, what about the knives that don't actually see as much benefit from Magnacut, as my title suggests? Well, let's talk about the properties that can be more or less important for different types of knives. Very small knives tend to do more cutting with less available cutting edge, so they can benefit a lot more from higher edge retention. Fixed blade knives are easy to keep oiled and don't have mechanisms to maintain, so they don't necessarily need high corrosion resistance. Knives that are going to see "hard use" such as chopping or batoning may favor toughness a bit more over edge retention.

Currently, people seem to be clamoring for Magnacut in literally every knife, but knives with edge length equal to or less than the Dragonfly I just don't see it as being an ideal steel for them. I know a lot of people poo-poo S30V, but I think the general class of higher-edge-retention, mediocre-toughness stainless powder metallurgy steels are probably better for these folders.

I do think that Magnacut is probably going to be a brilliant steel for general-purpose fixed blade knives, however I can also see people who might value M4 more due to its significantly better edge retention with a smidge less toughness, or LC200N for being basically impervious to corrosion and extremely high toughness allowing for good edge stability coupled with kinda-pretty-okish edge retention.

In summation, I do think it's going to be a great steel, and I think Spyderco's decision for the Native 5 Salt to be the first official magnacut spyderco is an excellent one, but I also think a lot of people are just asking for the shiny new hotness rather than actually thinking about what steels are best for which use cases.
Soooo... What knives that are equal to or less than the Dragonfly are currently offered in S30V? And whatever number that is, how does that number compare to all the models that aren't? I mean, the standard Dragonfly obviously isn't. Are you advocating a shift to S30V for all those knives? If so, how would that be different than what you're posting against?

While I doubt MagnaCut will replace VG-10 in the Seki models, let's pretend it does. Wouldn't there still be exclusives and sprints in those models to allow folks to still get one in S30V if that's what they want?

Of course there will always be steel variety and I don't think anyone is advocating that we "MagnaCut them all" but sure people are going to get excited and speculate about it being their favorite models. That's true of just about any steel.

Sure it's going to get a lot of talk and it should. This is the knife community. If we weren't hyped about stuff like this what would we talk about? What knife fidgets the best? This is a scientifically different approach to steel alloying specifically geared to the knife market annnnnnnnnndddddd the inventor actively engages the community and shares his data (much of which was provided to him but third-party living legends). To just write people's excitement off as "just asking for the shiny new hotness" is, in my opinion, pretty dismissive. I carry a Dragonfly a lot and I've thought a lot about my preferred steel for it in my years of it's use and I decided I like VG-10, not S30V. See, we can think about what steels are best for which uses and draw different conclusions. That doesn't make either of us more right.

I hope steels like S90V, K390 etc. never go anywhere and I doubt they ever will. :)
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#19

Post by The Meat man »

Intellectually I really like the idea of MagnaCut. In my real-life, everyday use, though, I honestly wonder if I'd be able to tell much of a difference from something like CPM S30V/S35VN. I suspect that these steels will be far more similar than they are different.
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Re: We don't actually need to Magnacut *all* the knives

#20

Post by Bolster »

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:32 pm
In summation, I do think it's going to be a great steel, and I think Spyderco's decision for the Native 5 Salt to be the first official magnacut spyderco is an excellent one, but I also think a lot of people are just asking for the shiny new hotness rather than actually thinking about what steels are best for which use cases.

Well argued.
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