Heron by Chad Kelly ... collab?

[Xplorer]

Some of your fixed blades could do well in the Spyderco Ethnic series made in Taichung. For instance, the Puukko.

I do appreciate you saying that. It turns out those little mini Puukkos are much better trail companions or backpacking knives than I ever imagined they'd be. They process kindling amazingly well and the shape of the first one you posted here feels a lot like a smooth rounded river rock in the hand. I made those just as a learning experiment for myself. I kept the Rosewood and Z-wear version for myself and plan to take it backpacking next season.
I have taken what I learned and designed 2 actual Puukkos since then. I haven't had time to build them yet though. IMO any ethnic series Puukko collab should be done with someone who is authentically dedicated to making nothing but Puukkos or at least views Puukkos as their specialty. That's not me. I'm just a fan of the exceptional design concept and the history of the design.

[RamZar]

I forgot that Spyderco had a Puukko folder and a Puukko fixed blade in the ethnic series called Nilakka and Puukko respectively and both made in Taichung.

[Xplorer]

I also like your small fixed blades of classic American heritage, that is, Small Bowie and Loveless City Knife homage.

That's super nice of you!

That gents Bowie was my first narrowing tang, first fuller, first full guard and first threaded pommel and first antler handle. I made so many mistakes I had to make it 2 1/2 times. After messing up the grind on the first one I started over. After completely finishing the second one I decided it just wasn't good enough and started over again. But, by the time I was done I didn't want to part with that knife. Thankfully the person who was waiting for this knife is a very, very patient person.

Thank you for recognizing the Loveless City Knife homage in the Kestrel! That's exactly the primary source of inspiration behind that one.

I am also working on another "ethnic" type knife. Since I am part Scottish I have been studying the Sgian Dubh history recently. I am currently designing a proper "black knife" for my sock in case I ever have the nerve to wear a kilt.

Since you mentioned the American heritage blades I want to mention the "camp kitchen scalper" . Inspired by one of the styles of English trade knives that were being used in colonial America and the following "frontier times" this slight trailing point blade is an over-achiever and a real pleasure to use.



And of course, my personal hunter is very much inspired by the Loveless straight hunter.

[Xplorer]

I never would have thought carbon fiber could be used for a spring, that's really neat and an impressive innovation, even if only used in custom knives.
Curious, have you also tried G10? Not sure how different they would be to serve that function.

Yes I tried G10. It doesn't provide as much strength (spring pressure) and it wears out too fast in this application. If it worked it would be a much cheaper solution. But unfortunately, it doesn't work within a thickness range that is reasonably useful in this application.

[Xplorer]

Count me in. Beautiful work sir.

OK Thank you! You've been counted .

[Xplorer]

Love them All and would love to see a collaboration! A horizontal belt carry fixed blade would be my top choice.

Thank you! I appreciate the input. You're not alone. I have quite a lot of people sending me messages saying the same.

[RamZar]

I am also working on another "ethnic" type knife. Since I am part Scottish I have been studying the Sgian Dubh history recently. I am currently designing a proper "black knife" for my sock in case I ever have the nerve to wear a kilt.

I had to look up Scottish “Sgian Dubh” with its ornate handles and sheaths! Something quite different like the wonderful Usquebaugh.

[RamZar]

Love them All and would love to see a collaboration! A horizontal belt carry fixed blade would be my top choice.

Thank you! I appreciate the input. You're not alone. I have quite a lot of people sending me messages saying the same.

Yes to a small fixed blade with horizontal belt carry!

[Xplorer]

I had to look up Scottish “Sgian Dubh” with its ornate handles and sheaths! Something quite different like the wonderful Usquebaugh.

There you go! Exactly what I was talking about. My Sgian Dubh will be more similar to the one in the sock nearest the camera than the one in the first picture, but yah..that's my next/current "ethnic" project. I enjoy the history and traditions that are attached to knives like these. I also like how this particular type of knife uses a hard scabbard inside the sheath (like a traditional Finnish Puukko sheath) plus it typically gets some ornate decorating. Fun stuff...to me anyway

[Bolster]

All these gorgeous knives. But I still want a Heron.

I really dig the way a lot of Mr K's blades terminate at the heel, retaining full edge, and then the choil rising out of the termination, into a handle profile that's understated and versatile. Small ricasso giving maximum edge, but enough ricasso to be comfortable for the index finger. I think it's devilish hard to design something both exotic and understated at the same time, but that's the essence of good design, in my book.

[Xplorer]

All these gorgeous knives. But I still want a Heron.

I really dig the way a lot of Mr K's blades terminate at the heel, retaining full edge, and then the choil rising out of the termination, into a handle profile that's understated and versatile. Small ricasso giving maximum edge, but enough ricasso to be comfortable for the index finger. I think it's devilish hard to design something both exotic and understated at the same time, but that's the essence of good design, in my book.

I love that you're seeing "exotic and understated" in the Heron design. That's more intentional that you might realize.

In addition to knife history I enjoy studying industrial design as well. I have tremendous appreciation for an industrial designer by the name of Raymond Loewy. His designs have been some of the the most iconic and lasting designs imaginable. Some of his designs you might recognize include the Shell Oil Logo, the Lucky Strike logo, The US Mail logo, the blue nose on Air Force One, the Studebaker Starlite Coupe, Greyhound Buses, the Coca Cola bottle.... the list goes on and on. Mr. Loewy had a design concept that I appreciate and I've started to apply it to my work. In summary, his way of making designs that were appealing to most people was to either make familiar things look futuristic or make new modern things look familiar. He referred to it as M.A.Y.A. Most advanced yet acceptable. The Heron was the first knife I designed with the specific intention of applying the MAYA concept. The blade shape, orientation and overall design package are modern while the handle (with it's pinned bolsters and Loveless inspired handle ergos) retains an aesthetic reminiscent of custom knives of 70+ years ago.

After intentionally applying the advanced yet acceptable, or new yet familiar concept in this design it is extremely gratifying to see you actually write that you see "exotic and understated". Close enough! That sounds like mission accomplished to me.

[RamZar]

Raymond Loewy described his streamlined designs as cleanlining—reducing the look of a product to its essence, without frills or needless detail. It’s exemplified in the 1936 design for Pennsylvania Railroad's S1 steam locomotive. While the performances are the same one looks old and stodgy while the other (Loewy standing on it) looks sleek, streamlined and even faster!



Further reading: Meet the Product Designer Who Made Mid-Century America Look Clean and Stylish

[Xplorer]

Raymond Loewy described his streamlined designs as cleanlining—reducing the look of a product to its essence, without frills or needless detail. It’s exemplified in the 1936 design for Pennsylvania Railroad's S1 steam locomotive. While the performances are the same one looks old and stodgy while the other (Loewy standing on it) looks sleek, streamlined and even faster!



Further reading: Meet the Product Designer Who Made Mid-Century America Look Clean and Stylish

Exactly! The S1 train is a great example of applying the MAYA concept to something old. Thank you for digging up that example. I find his approach to design to be very well suited for me as a knife designer. Knives have been made for so long that sometimes it feels like everything has already been done. There are no shapes, curves, angles and very few ideas that haven't been used to make a knife. So, having a design philosophy from which to develop the old into something new or to make that which is new more approachable is an extremely important part of my journey as a maker and ultimately my potential for success...IMO.

[wrdwrght]

Chad, go no further than your Piute and I’m in. And I’d love Vanax but I sense Spyderco doesn’t like the cost.

[Xplorer]

Chad, go no further than your Piute and I’m in. And I’d love Vanax but I sense Spyderco doesn’t like the cost.

Thank for your encouraging input!

The raw cost for Vanax is high and it doesn't end at purchasing the steel, which by itself would be enough to make it expensive. The H/T requirements are somewhat more costly than many steels and the rate at which that steel warps during H/T is noticeably higher than any of the other 20+ steels I've worked with. This would undoubtedly result in a high waste factor for a production company. There's more to it as well. While I use Vanax myself and I may have been an early advocate for Spyderco using Vanax, I can understand why it isn't likely to happen.

Vanax may have some very special characteristics but it isn't perfect of course. It does provide a substantial step up in edge retention over LC200N while maintaining the same corrosion resistance, but it also hardens into a matrix and nitride mix that results in the "gummiest" burr I've dealt with. I see this as a problem simply because (frankly) most people are not very good at sharpening. A person who doesn't have the right equipment or experience to properly de-burr Vanax is likely to be frustrated by not being able to get it as sharp as they want. For an experienced sharpener or someone with CBN or diamond stones it's no big deal...but if it were "used by the masses" WAY too many people would struggle with the burr IMO.

Which brings me to Magnacut. If we would say corrosion resistance of Vanax and LC200N are a 10, then Magnacut would be a 9.5. Magnacut's edge retention appears to be basically the same as Vanax and the additional hardness achievable will aid in overall edge stability. Moreover the finished matrix and carbides plus a little added hardness mean Magnacut will be easier to de-burr cleanly. Personally, I will gleefully give up that .5 in corrosion resistance to get better sharpening response.

So, what I'm mostly trying to say is we're fortunate whether we ever get a Vanax Spyderco or not. We are living in a time when knife steels are not only the best they've ever been, but there are also more great options to choose from than ever before.

[RamZar]

When Larrin did a corrosion test of various stainless steels Vanax and LC200N did best with a score of 10 (H1 would be a 10 as well). Next was MagnaCut (New Steel) at 9.5 and then 20CV at 9. I like 20CV/M390/204P a lot for small folders because of superior edge retention and corrosion resistance. It’s not as tough or corrosion resistant as LC200N or MagnaCut or Vanax but it has better edge retention and a good overall compromise.

[Xplorer]

When Larrin did a corrosion test of various stainless steels Vanax and LC200N did best with a score of 10 (H1 would be a 10 as well). Next was MagnaCut (New Steel) at 9.5 and then 20CV at 9. I like 20CV/M390/204P a lot for small folders because of superior edge retention and corrosion resistance. It’s not as tough or corrosion resistant as LC200N or MagnaCut or Vanax but a good compromise.

I like CPM20CV as well. I've made quite a few M390 and CPM20CV knives. It was a favorite of mine for a while. There's no doubt in my mind that the corrosion resistance of 20CV is more than good enough for 99.9% of people and I agree that the added edge retention is a benefit. However, I do have some reservations about M390 or CPM20CV (and I don't think CTS-204P exists anymore). For one thing, too many M390 production knives were sold (most of them with butterflies on them...not saying who though) with the wrong H/T protocol. When you sell M390 as a "premium" steel for a premium price but you only harden it to HRC59/60 (sometimes less) you get S30V performance at a substantially higher price and give M390 and undue bad reputation. Had all those M390 knives been heat treated to HRC 62+ like they should have been all of those thousands of people would have a very different opinion. Now, even though I know what the steel can do at the correct hardness I think that steel has become too polarizing and I don't want to be a part of that mess.

Here's a 20Cv re-curve fighter I gave to my uncle Tim.


Here's an M390 hunter/fighter that lives in Canada now.

[JSumm]

When Larrin did a corrosion test of various stainless steels Vanax and LC200N did best with a score of 10 (H1 would be a 10 as well). Next was MagnaCut (New Steel) at 9.5 and then 20CV at 9. I like 20CV/M390/204P a lot for small folders because of superior edge retention and corrosion resistance. It’s not as tough or corrosion resistant as LC200N or MagnaCut or Vanax but it has better edge retention and a good overall compromise.

I use my 20cv knives if I do not want to worry about corrosion. They are my Salt wannabes.

[abbazaba]

Wow, glad to see this really got some legs! What a great read this thread is, and a nice example of the knife community at its best. Chad's attitude always seems nothing short of amazing, and his tireless contributions to the forums are a pleasure to read. Thank you!

Please keep up the transparency and discussion! I'll have my wallet ready when the knife drops.

[Xplorer]

Wow, glad to see this really got some legs! What a great read this thread is, and a nice example of the knife community at its best. Chad's attitude always seems nothing short of amazing, and his tireless contributions to the forums are a pleasure to read. Thank you!

Please keep up the transparency and discussion! I'll have my wallet ready when the knife drops.

You're too kind. But that's ok by me your words are much appreciated! Thank you.