Gunting vs Ronin vs Karambit????????

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CKE
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Gunting vs Ronin vs Karambit????????

Postby CKE » Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:00 am

Please bear with me on this one. I will try to explain to the best of my abilities.

First off, I have a Gunting and am quite interested in all that is the Gunting. I think it makes a fair EDC with self defense being well looked after with this blade. Now I have not purchased the training tapes and I live in a small city in Northwestern Ontario the likely hood of getting an instructor here is nill. I would like to know how to use this blade. I now it is strongly recommended that you buy the trainer as well.

I guess my question is this. With all the hype about the new folding Karambit, are they as good as the site makes them out to be? I will be training by my self(no one else I have found yet is as interested in some sort of MBC as myself) and was wondering what I would be able to make the most out of. Is the Gunting more specialized than the Karambit? They both have training tapes and are both mainly self defense blades(if I am not mistaken).

I know this is the MBC forum but what would be more comprehendable to a new person just starting out. The Gunting or the Karambit? I can visually see the effects of the moves that Bram does in the small clips on the site. I can not visualize how the Karambit spinning around could be effective. Sure it looks very cool being "waved" open and spun(like the butterfly knife) but are the strikes made by spinning it? I know I have MUCH to learn and someday I would like to go somewhere where I could get some training.

The other option is the Ronin. I am not familiar with any training tapes for this blade but am sure there is something out there for it.

I hope you can sort of get an idea of what I am asking. I have a chance to buy a Karambit soon but don't want to buy one just because they are the hot knife right now. I bought the Gunting knowing it made a good heavy use EDC and when I was ready could train with it for MBC. I do like the Ronin too. So that is my dilema...Thanks for your help! Take Care.



"everything else is just a jeep"

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Postby Joe Talmadge » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:31 pm

Given a lack of instructors or training partners, I personally would stay away from more special-purpose or harder-to-learn weapons, and would definitely stay with easier-to-carry. Accordingly, of the three knives you mention above, my very strong preference would be the Ronin -- easy to carry, combatives-wise basically a straight-up knife. Gunting would be second, very awkward to carry, and while I think learning any moves is hard without training partners, I think adding guntings in with the knifework will be extra difficult to learn. Useable for slashes and thrusts, but thrust penetration greatly reduced by the gunting horn, which without training won't be buying you much advantage to make up for it. A far third would be a karambit of some kind, it gives you a hook blade which means only certain kinds of cuts, and the most natural and effective responses for less trained folks (thrusts) completely unavailable.

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Postby CKE » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:40 pm

Thanks Joe. I appreciate the info, I am quite the green horn when it comes to MBC. I read about Mr Janich's video series and think I might try to get his first video. Thanks again. Take Care!

"everything else is just a jeep"

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Postby stanley_white » Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:02 pm

In some jurisdictions if you produce a knife during an encounter, even if it is still closed such as the Gunting, it is legally the same as if it were open. Some laws don't differentiate between a closed versus open knife. Check your laws and see what they say.

I just transitioned over to a Ronin after carrying an Al Mar SERE 2000 for quite awhile. After attending MBC I-IV I realized that though I may be able to quickly deploy my folder via the inertia opening method that under stress it was better to carry a fixed blade. When scared to death and loosing those fine motor skills a fixed blade, at least for me, has a marked advantage.


-Stanley White

Edited by - stanley_white on 8/26/2003 10:03:19 PM

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Postby BRAM » Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:08 pm

Actually you both are very wrong about thrusting with a Gunting..and it's typical..of those that call it a one purpose tool..or a non cutting non thrusting tool..
How deep do you think you want to thrust.??? ever really try thrusting with it..the Guting that is?
Again.. How deep do you think you are going to go?
The blade is the same size as a Ronin..
You think you are going to thrust deeper with it?
THe ramp doesn't stop it from going in at least 2 3/4 inches...
Isn't that deep enough? I've seen it stop people @ that thrusting level...
I've seen its cuts stop bad guys..
I've seen many more times the Closed tool finishing bad guys off in a heart beat..
I practice cutting bones with it,...chickens..thrusting through animal ribs..cutting hunks of meat..cutting hanging paper.. 4 inches long..two lines wide hanging by a clip on a thread..just like the prelimn to the rope cutting contests..
I cut rope, cans...
I pound it through stuff..
I ramp Coffee cans.. I tomahawk plywood and hard wood boards..
I blast body armour...

You can't do regular knife stuff with a gunting??/ WHY?
Doesn't it have an edge?
I mean its a Spyderco knife..
its got a hole?
geeeee and it KinOps as well...
Of course it's so rough to learn, that it's part of many training programs..WHY? cause if I can keep the sarcasm out of my comments a bit..I'd tell you that all of it is based on gross motor skill usage..and instinctive gross motor skill..
It doesn't take a great deal of skill to use a Gunting nor long ardous training..and its NOT rocket science..
Al Pickels just found out that it makes a great hunting knife..its in the current Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement..
Gregf Beeman wrote of it as a very cool fishing knife..
And of course all the full time security and LEO and agency guys writing of it in Law Enforcement magazines have found it very easy to use,,
Actually Perry Kelly Chief of Use of Force of Canada tried it and wrote about its ease of use and training methods in ASLET. He reccommends it highly...

I travel around the world teaching those that need to know how to use the tool.. and its learned in hours not weeks or months..
So I guess it must be pretty easy for others to do..

I carry a Gunting daily..have for many years..I know hundreds of others who do as well..no problemo..its not awkward to carry..


Hammering & tomahawking are easy..
Doing a Gunt move? gee..that's what humans do..we open & close our arms..so now theres a bad guy in the middle...big deal..

The Gunting is no longer a novelty item ..
it works real time for real deal people..

As for instruction in Canada? we got instructors in Canada..

As for DRones? The Ronin should have a DRone.. The Kerambits do..
WHY? MBC training neccesitates a drone..no other way to learn..
One Cannot train with a live blade..EVER except to practice actual cutting..

Actually the Ronin, the Kerambit from Ernie and the Gunting are three very different tools that approach different problems..they offer different solutions..


Hm maybe @ 50 I'm just not as patient with explaining the tool anymore..ROFL..
And I'm just in from two weeks of teaching it full time.

Be safe

Bram

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Postby Joe Talmadge » Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>You can't do regular knife stuff with a gunting??/ WHY? <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>

Bram, with all due respect, no one insinuated any such thing ... my apologies if I hit a nerve. For myself, I said pretty clearly you can do thrusts and slashes with the gunting ... I was implying that you could do "regular knife stuff" for sure. I did (rightfully, IMO) point out the thrusting limitation due to the ramp, but didn't overemphasize it; I mean, right?

Let me go back again. I understand that the three knives are different solutions, and all have their merits. And furthermore, that the designers of all three knives are very accomplished in this field. That said, the original question was very specific: right now, he has neither a trainer nor training partners, so what might work best in the short term for someone in that situation? Don't you think the answer is more straightforward?

Emerson's folding karambit is awesome, but a pain to carry, and -- I'll claim again -- doesn't allow classic thrusts, which are what people with limited training will be most successful with. I'm not saying karambits are bad, but it's my opinion that it isn't the right choice for CKE.

The Gunting does allow slashes and thrusts. But it does come at the cost of being more of a pain to carry, what with the ramp. You may disagree, but most people will agree with me. Now, if he was going to train specifically, against live people, kinetic openings and limb destructions, my opinion would be different. But given tape learning and no partners, it's reasonable to doubt he'll obtain enough skill to overcome the carry disadvantage. Not that the gunting is bad, in fact I've admired it since it came out, but again, this is a particular situation where I just don't think it's the best choice -- though much better than the karambit.

The Ronin, with no kinetic ramps or oversized finger holes to deal with, should be much much easier to carry. Both slashes and thrusts will work fine. There may not be a Ronin-specific knife video, but there doesn't need to be -- any good video should do.

Hopefully I've presented this in such a way that it more clearly isn't meant to slam the Gunting in any way. But I stand by what I said.

Joe

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Postby jim_l_clifton » Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:04 am

Joe,
Sorry, but I disagree with you about the Gunting!! Yeah ,I'm one of Bram's students,didn't start out to like or believe in the G,like you was highly skeptical about the whole thing!Took a seminar(have you??)with Bram,walked in with a "I know knives" ,this G ain't it ! WHAT the **** am i doing here!! Bram made a believer out of me!! Tapes,yeah,I got them ,"viewed them" & use them!People I show them to say, that's simple,I can do that!!THEY WORK !Have you viewed the tapes??Oh yeah,one more thing,Bram did such a good # on me I now am one of the people that teach the G in Miami!!Canada, has a great guy & instructor go to cssdsc.com & ask about Steve!
Jim

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Postby jim_l_clifton » Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:19 am

Joe one more thing,at 59 I'm a senior citizen & hardheaded,if Bram can teach me ANYONE can learn the G!
Jim

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Postby Jimd » Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:10 pm

CKE, I'd stay away from the karambit. The thing is just plain bizarre and it's uses seem very limited to me.

Personally, I carry a regular knife (Strider MFS) as my primary self-defense piece. Also carry a few folders as backups most of the time.

As someone else posted, knife self-defense is not rocket science; it's very straight-forward.

Basically, you're either slashing or stabbing. If you want to stop a very serious attacker very quickly, it's more likely that stabbing is going to do that for you.

Not that slashing is useless, by any means.

I'm just relating this to you from the many knife fights that I've observed, and the few that I've personally participated in.

Don't try to get fancy and intricate with the technique; use simple, powerful moves because they utilize gross motor skills, which will be what you utilize under the adrenaline dump of a deadly situation.

Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com

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Postby Rex G » Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:40 pm

OK, now for my 2 cents. I am naturally clumsy, and was the 90-pound weakling that nobody wanted to pick for their team. Yet, I have survived almost 20 years of big-city police work, (not Bellaire!), learned to shoot fairly well, and have never lost a fight on the street. I like the Gunting, the Ronin, and a good, real karambit. The Emerson is not a real karambit, and with all due respect to Sal, neither is the karambit prototype I saw at the Blade Show. Warren Thomas is a very skillful knifemaker, but does not understand the karambit. Putting a finger hole on the end of a curved-blade knife's handle does not make a karambit. The user of a karambit DOES NOT SPIN a karambit. The karambit is extended and retracted from one grip to another, which is a 180-degree flip, not a spin. For the extended grip to actually be feasible, a karambit must have a concave area known as the rear brake. This is absent from the Emerson "Kerambit" as well as Spyderco's prototype. The karambit is indeed a specialized tool, and probably cannot be self-taught, in my opinion. Back to the Gunting: I loved the Gunting before I learned any of Bram's techniques. It is an excellent EDC and all-around utility knife, with the ramp being a wonderful guard to protect the hand during a thrust. I have since attended one of Bram's seminars, where I began to understand the application of the Gunting's special features. The Ronin is, I believe, a tremendous accomplishment for Michael Janich, Mike Snody, and Spyderco. It not only works with the MBC methods, but is a deadly little pikal knife and also works well with the "Clinch Pick" concept. I see no conflict between these three types of knives, and in fact sometimes have all three of them with me at one time. By the way, I do not mean to start any flame wars about Emerson knives! I do own an Emerson Kerambit, and it is a nifty, well-made, comfortable hawkbill pocket folder. On the subject of training, I recommend doing whatever necessary to attend at least a basic seminar with an instructor who truly understands realistic use of edged weapons. I have been to seminars by Bram Frank and Steve Tarani, and have met and spoken with Michael Janich at the Blade Show. All three of them travel to give seminars, and with airline tickets being such a bargain lately, obtaining training is much less expensive for a student who must travel to reach a seminar.

Edited by - rex G on 8/27/2003 4:46:57 PM

Edited by - Rex G on 8/27/2003 4:50:39 PM

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Postby Michael Janich » Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:47 pm

To all:

First of all, thanks for the cool thread. It's great to see such lively discussion on the MBC forum.

Secondly, I think it's important to note that everyone who responded here is an actual player who trains in knifework. As such, you are all truly entitled to your opinions. Many Internet forums are plagued by guys whose idea of "training" is sitting in front of a keyboard in their underwear sipping a beer and pretending to be an expert. I've personally trained with Bram, Joe Talmadge, and Stanley White, have met and talked at length with Rex G, and have been a fan of Ken and both Jims' posts for some time. When you truly walk the walk, it means something when you talk the talk.

When I teach MBC, I identify three criteria for a defensive knife: 1) It must be strong 2) It must do what knives are supposed to do, i.e. cut AND puncture, and 3) It must be easily carried so you can have it when you need it. With these criteria in mind, both the Ronin and the Gunting qualify completely. The kerambit, because of its limited thrusting capability, comes up short (in my opinion).

For a novice MBCer interested in learning basic skills, either the Ronin or the Gunting would do well. Since the Gunting already has a trainer available, if you had to buy right now, it would get the nod. Hopefully a Ronin trainer and matching sheath will be available soon (hint, hint).

With regard to the Gunting and its specialized capabilities, the only thing you need to keep in mind is that a specialized weapon requires specialized training (or at least diligent study) to realize its full potential. As Bram rightfully pointed out, an open Gunting is a truly devastating weapon when used with conventional MBC tactics. Even if you never mess with the kinetic opening of its less-lethal striking potential, it is a great MBC knife. Since the other capabilities of the Gunting are unique to its design, anyone wanting to master those tactics should make the appropriate commitment to the necessary training and should sort out their personal needs when it comes to carrying a Gunting regularly.

In proper hands, the kerambit is also a good weapon, however, it requires even more training than the Gunting to realize its full potential. In my opinion, any single-edged folding kerambit is a poor second to a double-edged, fixed-blade version and therefore cannot offer the full potential of the kerambit design.

To use a gun analogy, the Ronin is a Glock, the Gunting is a 1911, and the kerambit is an IPSC race gun. The Glock is basic and functional with basic skills. The 1911 offers a lighter, single-action trigger, but requires additional training and practice to learn to manipulate the safety and realize its full potential. The race gun is highly specialized and not really intended for everyday carry.

Ultimately, it's the man that makes the difference. Weapons are just tools powered and guided by our will to survive and remain safe.

Again, thanks for the cool thread.

Stay safe,





mike j

Edited by - Michael Janich on 8/27/2003 4:50:07 PM

Edited by - Michael Janich on 8/27/2003 4:51:05 PM

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Postby Rex G » Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:17 pm

Mike, you are right about the karambit being specialized. I carry mine in addition to, not in place of, a conventional knife. My folder is a Blade-tech/Tarani, and FB is a Strider/Tarani HS Karambit.

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Postby Dijos » Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:56 pm

Ok, I have to say something. When I took the Gunting Seminar, I knew nothing of martial arts. In the time of the seminar, I learned how to use it. I carry one every day in my pocket, and it is not that hard to carry. I feel that there are much more difficult knives to carry, like the buck Strider. But that’s beside the point. I do not understand why people think that just because the Gunting can be used closed, that it is too difficult to use open. I love the blade shape, and the indexing points. The handle is comfortable. The compression lock rules. The “small” blade length is no smaller than a Ronin, and longer than either Ernie’s or Tarani’s Kerambits. There are videos available, and all you need is a partner and a drone (so when you train, you don not injure yourself or others). You can learn from the videos-many have started out that way.

On the same note-Why would you choose a knife for self-defense if you never train? I don’t mean to single anyone out on this forum, or any forum, but I keep hearing “you need training if you want to use a Gunting” Do other knives have magic powers that make you able to use them without any training? I go to class; Mike Janich has MBC from Spyderco, Bram teaches all over the world, and there are other worthy instructors out there. Good knife training will apply to any knife, and against any object (bat, bottle, razor) that you may encounter. There are videos out if you just cannot get to someone.

Also:
I don’t think that MJ intended the Ronin for utility tasks, as best as I can recall. If you need a knife for everyday life, you need to consider that as well.

Is carrying a fixed blade legal where you are?

Thrusting is an approach that while effective, hard to explain in criminal court.

If I have a tool that allows me to use non-lethal force effectively, and escalate to lethal force when necessary, I have options that I don’t have with a fixed blade. I don’t know about where you all live, but a cop wouldn’t look for a “knife” unless there was a cutting injury present, Most of the places I have lived.

Joe, Proud CSSD/SC Student, Guntaholic, and Grateful student of Bram Frank.

P.S. Jim is hardheaded, LOL!

Nomex on, respond at will..

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Postby Joe Talmadge » Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>On the same note-Why would you choose a knife for self-defense if you never train? <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>

Because all of the world, untrained people use a knife effectively to poke holes in their fellow man? I do strongly agree with you that training is a must, but let's face it, even an untrained person with a knife can be pretty fearsome. That said, I've probably spent more on sparring equipment and training drones than on actual knives lately <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>I don’t think that MJ intended the Ronin for utility tasks, as best as I can recall. If you need a knife for everyday life, you need to consider that as well. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>

On the other hand, it jas a secure comfortable handle. The blade shape can be looked at as a modified wharncliffe, and I feel that general shape is the most useful for EDC. And it jas a high performance edge geometry. MJ might not have designed it for utility, but my guess is it will make a fantastic-performing EDC. Yojimbo too ... at least for those who don't mind the more combat-oriented blade-to-handle ratio.

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Postby jim_l_clifton » Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:08 am

Guys,
I really have enjoyed this topic,allow me to promote the G a little more! If you have a rifle & tbl. might arise,would you not like one with the option of,single shot,& rock & roll if you needed it ,your choice of how you use it! The G is like that to me!! I can use it as an impact tool or if warrented "click "live blade,depending on the situation!I just enjoy seeing what me & the G can do! MJ's R,it's a little sweetheart! Guys ,we have to be realistic,12"Bowies are nice but in today's society, carry one,chances are you will have a lot of interesting moments explaining to people like REX why! The G & R work very nice ,thank you! Ker.!!You have to like & know how to work in"real close" & better be able to " slide & glide"!!Thanks for the topic & insights! Mike we have to meet in the future,Bram has recommended you highly & an old friend Prof. Rick Hernandez says you are a pleasure to work with!
Jim

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Postby Mike Sastre » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:28 am

One of the areas in using a self-defense tool that is often neglected, but addressed by both Mike and Bram, is presentation from carry position. Because of its' curved shape, it is a little harder to make a concealable sheath for a kerambit that is smooth and fast in presentation. The Ronin and the Gunting are quicker to put in play.

Stan,

Glad to see you switch <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> - contact me privately if you need a pkg. deal.

Mike

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Postby Qship » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:59 am

"If I have a tool that allows me to use non-lethal force effectively, and escalate to lethal force when necessary, I have options that I don’t have with a fixed blade."

Depending upon the length of the handle, and the size of your hand, working with the butt of the knife is possible, and reverse grip techniques translate directly into using the punyo. My hand is small enough to use the Ronin that way. And, hooking techniques with the back of any blade can exert enough pressure to pinch nerves and restrain.

This is not a legal opinion, just an opinion. See a lawyer for a legal opinion. Once you produce the knife in a combat situation, open or closed, you have escalated to lethal force.

My vote goes to the Ronin because it is "enhanced generic". If you can use a Ronin, all your techniques will probably work, albeit less well, with any knife you pick up. If I did not have access to good instruction, I would opt for the simplest solution that would get me where I wanted to go. That would be Mr. Janich's tapes from Paladin Press. In fact, even with superb instruction, I opt for the simplest solution that will get me where I want to go. Basics first, basics last, basics always.

I gather that one can learn to use a Gunting in a short period of time, if one has access to a good teacher. If one could depend upon always having a Gunting when needed, one might want to learn the specialized Gunting techniques after thoroughly learning basic knife fighting. I understand that the best way to learn to use a kerambit is to study Pukulan for a few years, as the hooking empty hand techniques adapt well to the kerambit. The kerambit is a specialist's weapon.

I am still waiting for the Yojimbo, which I expect to be the best choice of all, because it will combine the portability of a folder with the blade of the Ronin, while providing a more pronounced punyo for impact techniques.

When, Sal?

Qship

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Postby jim_l_clifton » Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:21 pm

Qship,
Re-read your first paragraph,"THAT" is the G!That's "one" reason I like it! Your view of one must learn knife fighting first before learning the G is in error!TO GUOTE A FRIEND,"THIS AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE"! What the G teaches is self defence!The concept is effective! I am working at a disadvantage here, you are judging something you have no experince with,take a seminar or view the tapes,THEN we will see how you feel! This is NOT a case of which is better,the G or the R!!Trust me!! THEY both work,it just comes down to personal preference!
Jim

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Postby Jimd » Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:11 pm

Mr. Janich: Many Internet forums are plagued by guys whose idea of "training" is sitting in front of a keyboard in their underwear sipping a beer and pretending to be an expert>>>

Does sitting in front of the keyboard in underwear, sipping milk count? LOL! I'm not much of a beer drinker. :-)

Mr. Janich: have been a fan of Ken and both Jims' posts for some time. When you truly walk the walk, it means something when you talk the talk.>>>

With the utmost in humbleness, I thank you. While we're at it with the compliments, I really like that one article you wrote in which you gave a review of the CQB 3 and 4 by Cammillus.

Mr. Janich: Ultimately, it's the man that makes the difference. Weapons are just tools powered and guided by our will to survive and remain safe.>>>

You really touch upon the whole crux of the matter here, Mr. Janich. Seems to me it's the same debate that people often have about martial arts; the "my style can beat your style" argument. They overlook the fact that it's not the style that makes the man; it's the man using the style (or tool/knife/weapon).
Really great point, and one we must not ignore.

I must agree, this thread is very productive and I'm enjoying it immensely.








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