Talking Choils

[Netherend]

CDAEEE8A-B954-40B9-ACD0-501E66C91052.jpeg (12.51 KiB) Viewed 1171 times

Lately I’ve been carrying a para 3 and a native 5 salt as my edc. I love carrying the para 3; I love the way it looks, the feel of the handle and the shape of the blade, however I find myself subconsciously grabbing my Native 5 Salt more often than the para 3.

I recently used both knives to cut Velcro straps . I found that it was easier to cut the straps with the native than my para 3. I am no expert but I think that it may be how I approach the cut.

At first glance, the knives are very similar. The handle shapes and size are pretty close to each other and feel similar in hand. The choil is where things get different.

I think that the native 5 choil helps me use more of the blade than the para 3. First contact on the blade is further down the blade on the native than I found on the para 3.

Why do I not find the same results on the para 2? The para 2 has a deeper choil. It feels more locked in hand than the para 3 , however when I compare it to the Manix 2, I find the same results.

Deeper choils also feel safer. I am less likely to come in contact with the cutting edge if my finger is resting in a deep rut.

In my opinion- Does this make the knives any better than each other? No; I am probably just a bad cutter lol. I tried to take pictures of what I mean(no I do not normally approach surfaces at this angle)

I own and love all four of the knives I mentioned here , however for actual use I tend to gravitate toward the knives with the deeper/jimping choils.

What are your thoughts on choils?

[VooDooChild]

A lot of different choils out there. Some I like, some I dont.

The Shaman has the best choil grip of any knife Ive tried.

[z1r]

I can't really speak to the use of the choil when cutting straps because I typically insert the blade, with the edge pointed up, under the strap and pull toward me. I do like the choil option, though I don't use it often in real use. Not serious cutting by any means, but I used my N5 the other night cutting cheese for my crackers and found myself delighted by how easily and naturally it cut.

For me, I much prefer the Native to my Para 3. But I have friends and acquaintances that feel exactly opposite.

I prefer my PM 2 to the Para3. Also favor the M2. I think the M2 and N5 are similar in that, in my hands, my finger fits into the choil very naturally. I guess the combination of handle shape and my hand size make them seem to be more instinctual or natural to use.

[Snacktime]

Jimping on the choil is a huge improvement, lil native biggest draw back is the lack of jimping. I find I do like the shamans finger choil the most secure, very pronounced which works well with gloves. I tend to carry finger choil Spyderco more than choil less designs.

[aicolainen]

Having all of the blades mentioned except the PM2, which I used to have, I can’t say I’ve given this much thought.
The three of them, and especially the N5 and the P3, are to similar for me to carry them simultaneously so there is never a situation where I get to compare them head to head.
As I sit here comparing them in hand, I do see what you mean, choked up the N5 feels notably more secure than the P3.
It’s an interesting observation, but I don’t think it changes how I use the knives. For my particular hand, I get a very good grip behind the choil on the P3, while this is not the case on the N5. I do sometimes catch myself not using the choil on the N5 but thats very rare. It’s more natural to use it with the choil.
Like you say, mostly just different, not som much better or worse.

[PocketShredder]

Jimping on the choil is a huge improvement, lil native biggest draw back is the lack of jimping. I find I do like the shamans finger choil the most secure, very pronounced which works well with gloves. I tend to carry finger choil Spyderco more than choil less designs.

Choil jimping really does make a difference. When using the choil on the Calypso Jr., it feels like the knife just melts into my hand, but I can’t help thinking how much more secure it would feel with some added jimping. The same goes for the thumb ramp.

[Wartstein]

A few thoughts / points:

- For one I can´t recall that the PM2 "has a deeper choil" than the Para 3, as you say? I could be wrong though.

- I generally much prefer the Native 5 over the Para 3 (lock, bladestock, less bulk for the edge one gets...), but funnily the one thing that is better for me on the Para 3: The choked up grip :While the Native 5 feels amazing with the index finger in the choil, (for me!) in real work it tends to get unstable in the hand when held choked up. Not so the Para 3 though

- Could be that the Native 5 cuts better for you than the Para not because of the different choil, but due to the thinner blade stock of the Native? Would be just a slight difference though if at all, since the Para 3 has a rather fat blade (for a small knife) indeed, but also a taller blade than the Native (helps with cutting geometry). If you´d compared the Para 3 to something like a Delica / Salt ffg or Chaparral, you´d most likely notice a difference in performance due to the difference in blade stock thickness

- I generally much prefer shorter and shallower choils over deeper and wider ones.
Deeper and wider choils actually feel "better" when just holding the knife, in real work especially shallower choils (Stretch 1, Millie...) give me more control over the knife though. Shorter choil means that the hand is closer to the edge when NOT choking up.
Among the best "choils" for me are the ricassos of Endura, Endela, Delica: Very good and stable when choking up on the ricasso, and when not choking up the hand is still very close to the edge anyway.

- There is a certain knife size category where I don´t like choils purely practically speaking, and this is exactly the Para 3, Native 5... size range.
If a knife is even smaller (Chaparral) for my hand a choil is mandatory in order to get a good for finger grip at all
If a knife is larger (PM2, Stretch..) a choil is ok, since there´ll still be enough space on the actual handle to get a second good four finger grip behind the choil
In the Para 3 / Native 5 size range though: The overall length of the FRN/G10 handle would be long enough for a good four finger grip. But since the handle part of the choil eats up space there, I almost have to choke up. So if a knife in that particular size range had NO choil: The handle itself would offer a good four finger grip, the hand would be close to the edge anyway (just like when using a choil), and: One would gain a lot of cutting edge!
This is purely practically speaking though. I still like my old style Native FRN, though it would be even better without choil and instead more cutting edge.

[Wartstein]

As I sit here comparing them in hand, I do see what you mean, choked up the N5 feels notably more secure than the P3.

I´d honestly be very interested in how this feels in real, "harder" work for you!!

As I said in my previous post: For me the Native 5 is a bit "strange" in that regard: When just "sitting and comparing in hand" it feels very good and extremely "secure". In harder cutting though this changes with the Native 5. When held choked up, for me it starts to get a bit unstable in hand and it seems I can´t apply pressure very good.
This is different with the Para 3 (better in "real work" when held with a finger in the choil)

Also: I personally always feel that that "very secure feeling" a deep choil certainly offers, does not translate at all in "real life use". Shallower choils are just as secure or at least way secure enough and tend to work better for me in harder tasks.

Could be 100% differently for you, but that´s exactly what I am curious about...

[ladybug93]

from the pictures, it looks like the thumb ramp might be more of a factor in the angle than the choil. since your thumb is pushing against the ramp, it forces the handle further up in your palm and changes the angle of the blade. on the native, there is no ramp and the knife lies lower in your grip with a straighter angle. maybe i'm wrong and my eyes are playing tricks on me, but it looks like that might be part of what's going on.

[Wartstein]

from the pictures, it looks like the thumb ramp might be more of a factor in the angle than the choil. since your thumb is pushing against the ramp, it forces the handle further up in your palm and changes the angle of the blade. on the native, there is no ramp and the knife lies lower in your grip with a straighter angle. maybe i'm wrong and my eyes are playing tricks on me, but it looks like that might be part of what's going on.

Good point!!

[aicolainen]

As I sit here comparing them in hand, I do see what you mean, choked up the N5 feels notably more secure than the P3.

I´d honestly be very interested in how this feels in real, "harder" work for you!!

As I said in my previous post: For me the Native 5 is a bit "strange" in that regard: When just "sitting and comparing in hand" it feels very good and extremely "secure". In harder cutting though this changes with the Native 5. When held choked up, for me it starts to get a bit unstable in hand and it seems I can´t apply pressure very good.
This is different with the Para 3 (better in "real work" when held with a finger in the choil)

Also: I personally always feel that that "very secure feeling" a deep choil certainly offers, does not translate at all in "real life use". Shallower choils are just as secure or at least way secure enough and tend to work better for me in harder tasks.

Could be 100% differently for you, but that´s exactly what I am curious about...

I think that sentence you're highlighting only makes sense in the context of my first sentence:
Having all of the blades mentioned except the PM2, which I used to have, I can’t say I’ve given this much thought.


As you also point out, this is a quite noticeable difference when you're just holding it in your hand and not actually using it.
The fact is that if a knife works, I don't really pay attention to how I'm using it/holding it, it's only when I get hot spots or run into problems that I pay attention to what's actually going on as far as my grip on the knife is concerned.

I suspect you're onto something though. I use the two knives quite differently, so it's kind of an apples vs pears comparison, but I use my P3 for hobby-/home level carpenter/construction/electrical work, which implies a multitude of tasks, grips and type of cuts and it has never felt unsafe. I actually like it very much in this role, and it has kind of turned my impression on the knife overall, which wasn't too good to begin with.
The N5 Salt is primarily a generic outdoor folder for me. It's not particularly a favorite for any specific task, but it's a great option if I want to carry a single just in case knife that can take on most tasks. It's light weight, but still plenty robust.
As a consequence, I haven't used it in a similarly diverse fashion as the P3.

[vivi]

I can use shallow or deep choils just fine, but I have a strong preference for the deeper choils on my Native Chief VS my Military with its shallow choil.

It doesn't make a big difference to me either way. What does is the thumb ramp. Certain knives like the UKPK, Dragonfly, Delica etc. are difficult for me to use with my thumb on the ramp. Long thumbs I guess....it just feels cramped on those models.

The first picture in this thread is a great example. That looks painful to me. Compare it to the Chief, Yojumbo and Manix XL, all of which let me extend my thumb to a more comfortable position.

[Netherend]

A few thoughts / points:

- For one I can´t recall that the PM2 "has a deeper choil" than the Para 3, as you say? I could be wrong though.


I think that the pm2 has an overall advantage with handle size. There is more leverage with the handle as a whole.

The thumb ramp on the para 3 as well as many other spyderco knives really do help make the knife feel more secure.

As far as “harder work” I am not sure if I want to use a 3 inch blade for anything harder than cutting cables , Velcro , boxes , food etc. I have used my para 3 to cut young tree branches and copper washing machine cables. The thumb ramp is helpful.

I have not experienced any hand fatigue using both knives. I do not use them for long periods of time but I do use them often. (Not counting the hundred thousands of times that I flick them lol) When sharpening them on the sharp maker the N5 and P3 are both among the most comfortable knives to hold for long periods of time(though that could be said about all of my spyderco knives).

Like I said before; I am no expert in cutting and my experience is anecdotal. IMO the native 5 has incredibly good ergonomics. I really want to try out the g10 version of it because I love the feel of g10 in hand. The M2 is probably the best ergonomics in a knife that I have experienced. The M2 really fills my hand and locks into place. I really want to try a shaman soon .

Choils on backlocks/lockbacks also help protect my hands from spyder-bites. My Atlantic salt cut me a few times when I tried closing it like I do on my N5. Conversely; the Delica did not bite me. The delica has just enough space to keep my finger clear of the blade which was surprising to me at first glance .

[Wartstein]

I think that sentence you're highlighting only makes sense in the context of my first sentence:
Having all of the blades mentioned except the PM2, which I used to have, I can’t say I’ve given this much thought.


As you also point out, this is a quite noticeable difference when you're just holding it in your hand and not actually using it.
The fact is that if a knife works, I don't really pay attention to how I'm using it/holding it, it's only when I get hot spots or run into problems that I pay attention to what's actually going on as far as my grip on the knife is concerned.

I suspect you're onto something though. I use the two knives quite differently, so it's kind of an apples vs pears comparison, but I use my P3 for hobby-/home level carpenter/construction/electrical work, which implies a multitude of tasks, grips and type of cuts and it has never felt unsafe. I actually like it very much in this role, and it has kind of turned my impression on the knife overall, which wasn't too good to begin with.
The N5 Salt is primarily a generic outdoor folder for me. It's not particularly a favorite for any specific task, but it's a great option if I want to carry a single just in case knife that can take on most tasks. It's light weight, but still plenty robust.
As a consequence, I haven't used it in a similarly diverse fashion as the P3.

Thanks for the reply (and my apologies - of course I did not mean to make your post look as if it had less sense by "snipping" it too much)!

No, actually I am not really onto something.
I just find it very interesting:

a) How very differently folders sometimes feel in the hands of people who actually use them in various tasks (which you and I (and many others here of course) obviously do) ... and
b) yes, how very little (in my experience) a knife actually "tells" how it will feel in real use, when just being held (and not actually used) (this is also why it makes me smile sometimes when in those first impression vids youtube guys just hold a knife and then seem to be able to talk about its "great (or not so great) ergos" already).

The Native 5 is just a good example for the above:

a) So many obviously like its ergos (also) in real use, while for me as soon as the edge meets real resistance (like when whittling harder wood) the finger-in-the-choil-grip is not actually "bad", but just feels "unstable" - the knife starts to "roll" a little bit, and when I apply pressure there seems to be not ideal support under my index finger.
This is not the case with PM2, Para 2, Manix - all work great choked up for me!
The Stretch 1 is even better -. its shallow choil gives me great control
b) When I just hold the Native 5 (and also the old FRN Native) with index finger in the choil or just make "cuts in the air" this feels perfect for me! Like the best ergos ever. But as described above: This does not translate into real, "harder" use.

To be clear: I really like the Native 5 and even more so the old FRN Native. Not only for their extremely cool looks. I think in many typical EDC tasks what I describe above is not relevant at all.
But, differently to you: For my personal hand it could not be an ideal outdoor folder. Just cause in the outdoors I tend to do more of stuff like whittling wood and the like, and for that it is just not ideal for me.

[Wartstein]

I think that the pm2 has an overall advantage with handle size. There is more leverage with the handle as a whole.

The thumb ramp on the para 3 as well as many other spyderco knives really do help make the knife feel more secure.

As far as “harder work” I am not sure if I want to use a 3 inch blade for anything harder than cutting cables , Velcro , boxes , food etc. I have used my para 3 to cut young tree branches and copper washing machine cables. The thumb ramp is helpful.

I have not experienced any hand fatigue using both knives. I do not use them for long periods of time but I do use them often. (Not counting the hundred thousands of times that I flick them lol) When sharpening them on the sharp maker the N5 and P3 are both among the most comfortable knives to hold for long periods of time(though that could be said about all of my spyderco knives).

Like I said before; I am no expert in cutting and my experience is anecdotal. IMO the native 5 has incredibly good ergonomics. I really want to try out the g10 version of it because I love the feel of g10 in hand. The M2 is probably the best ergonomics in a knife that I have experienced. The M2 really fills my hand and locks into place. I really want to try a shaman soon .

Choils on backlocks/lockbacks also help protect my hands from spyder-bites. My Atlantic salt cut me a few times when I tried closing it like I do on my N5. Conversely; the Delica did not bite me. The delica has just enough space to keep my finger clear of the blade which was surprising to me at first glance .

- Sure, the PM2 does have an advantage in handle size (concerning leverage).
But you said the PM2 would have a "deeper choil than the Para 3", and that is not what I recall, so I was curious

- Funnily enough, I almost never use the thumb ramp on Spydies, but rather put my finger on the side of the blade (like on the opening hole). - I am certainly in the minority here.
I DO put my thumb on the spine a lot though when there is NO thumb ramp (like on the Native)

- In my experience for many "hard use" tasks actually small to medium knives are very well suited, while on the other hand "lighter" slicing tasks profit from a longer blade. This is very subjective of course!

- On backlocks: I know that many people use that "drop the choil on the finger" method.
For me personally this is one of the not really convenient one.
I may share a few vids (below) where I try to show different approaches (first time slow, then two times regular speed), perhaps you like one of those (and use it on choil-less backlocks)

https://streamable.com/j7fjd

https://streamable.com/bhhzs

https://streamable.com/myzlt

[Ramonade]

I have these two knives on my desk right beside me what a coinkidink!
(Well, the Para3 is not coated but eh...)
I like both models but I've really fallen in love with the Native 5 LW and the Salt is really put to use.

Choils are IMHO a prolongation of the handle wich means the same rules do apply. A knife handle fits some hands and not others, the choil follows the same principle.


@Warstein : The first link is a method that I use, but only on the Seki-made backlocks. On the Native 5 since you have to depress the lock entirely, it's not safe for me to do it (I tried, and when I saw it wasn't working, I didn't push more). There's certainly Golden backlocks that can do this, not the N5 for me tho

[anycal]

...

- I generally much prefer the Native 5 over the Para 3

...

Just curious, and I ask because I don't recall you posting about it. Am I correct to assume you don't own a Para 3? If you did at some point, how long did you use it for? G10 or LW? Honestly, I am just trying to understand where your perspective is coming from.

I guess the same question about the PM2, which makes it into bulk of your comments. And the Native 5?

Thanks.

[Wartstein]

...

- I generally much prefer the Native 5 over the Para 3

...

Just curious, and I ask because I don't recall you posting about it. Am I correct to assume you don't own a Para 3? If you did at some point, how long did you use it for? G10 or LW? Honestly, I am just trying to understand where your perspective is coming from.

I guess the same question about the PM2, which makes it into bulk of your comments. And the Native 5?

Thanks.

No offense (really), but despite what you say in your post it sometimes seems to me you still have the impression I´d be forming an opinion or making posts about something without really knowing what I am talking about?
Honestly (and this is just MY impression and I could be wrong!) I rather feel that I point out close to annoyingly often on what a post or input is based on - so in my posts you´ĺl read tons of from "just from what I´ve read", to "from my extensive experience", and with lots of "just from handling a knife" ; "to be clear, I am not an expert on this"; "this is very subjective though" and so on and so on in between.
I also often point out from where I take specs: From the Spyderco site, or from what I measured myself (for example I seem to recall (not entirely sure though!!) that we had a discussion about if the Delica had an a bit longer cutting edge than the Native 5 - I was of the opinion that this is the case (based on the specs on the Spyderco site and my measurements), and you that rather not)
Anyway: This is really NOT by any means to start an argument (!!), just my perspective on this! And no one can really read through all of my too much and too lengthy posts... except myself , and so I certainly have the impression that I always point out on what my opinion is based on, while others might actually miss the posts where I do this again and again.

Now to your question:

Native 5: I had a Native LW for about a year. I actually post quite often about it, mostly in the context of how its S35VN steel worked for me, but also, as here, about the ergos.
I also have an old Native FRN for a short time now (I prefer the handle on that one a bit over the Native 5s ) - like it a lot, and posted quite a bit about it especially in the "what Spyderco is in my pocket" thread.

PM2: Actually one of the first knives I got very soon after joining this forum (of course I had Spydies before that) - it was a very generous gift by forum brother Zatx, I made a long post about this in the "kindness of your hearts" thread. And some dedicated threads, for example I used the PM2 for the (not totally serious...) thread (and the pic there) where I measured if a comp.lock or backlock can be closed faster one handed.
Currently (or actually already for close to a year or so) I lend it to a friend, so don´t have it at hand.

Para 3: For some time I pointed out, that I just could try a Para 3, but did not own one, and my opinion on its ergos and cutting performance were based on that.
Then, actually because I wanted to give a model that does not really connect with me another fair chance, I got a Para 3 LW (in SE of course, to increase its chances ): Made some posts about how I actually liked it more than I thought, could still not really warm up the comp.lock though, and sold it again like I actually had planned from the beginning.
Also used it for some comparison pics (blade stock thickness Salt 2 vs Para 3....)

[anycal]

Fair enough.

My visits here are sporadic and usually don't go past the first page. And even then, I only check on subjects of interest. Sometimes I check in daily, other times I can be MIA for weeks. But when I do, a Gernot post is a guarantee

No offense meant, no offence taken. Just trying to gauge your experience with knives you reference frequently. For me, I don't follow or comment on knives I don't use, or have no interest in, or never owned. A life rule in general.

[Wartstein]

.....

@Warstein : The first link is a method that I use, but only on the Seki-made backlocks. On the Native 5 since you have to depress the lock entirely, it's not safe for me to do it (I tried, and when I saw it wasn't working, I didn't push more). There's certainly Golden backlocks that can do this, not the N5 for me tho

A bit off topic, but just so I understand (I actually think I do not )

- You are referring to the link where I close the Stretch (backlock knife) with the "fingers all the time out of the blade path" method? By depressing the lock with the index finger? (so this one https://streamable.com/j7fjd)

Why should this not work with the Native and why is it not safe?
Honest question, I don´t have my Native 5 anymore, but just tried with my FRN Native (lock also depressed entirely) - no problem.. so I think I might be missing what you actually mean..