(Thought I'd post this here as well as at Bladeforums)--
I have not really considered knives as practical defensive weapons until now (I normally walk 'unarmed' with my Calypso Jr).
I recently decided to investigate knife fighting, in order to inform my kungfu training (ie. know the threat).
It occurs to me that while learning about it is my primary goal, training would be a useful secondary goal, in case I ever encounter a personal threat that makes violating the law to go armed a serious option. I have no intention of breaking the law at this point, but if the law ever fails in its duty to protect myself or a loved one, I will feel no compunction in taking up that duty myself.
Both the Temperance and Ronin look like good options and I would be grateful if you would educate me on their relative merits and drawbacks in a purely MBC role.
Here are a couple of thoughts of my own:
Given that I would be breaking the law to carry either, blade length and other legal considerations are moot. For the same reason, concealment is important, which is why I have shortlisted these knives.
The availablilty of a Trainer for the Temperance is a plus, will there be a Ronin trainer?
I would also be happy to hear other suggestions (including non Spyderco) with reasons.
Finally, are there any upcoming MBC Seminars in UK/Europe (or how can I find out)?
Thanks
Dom
Ronin vs. Temperance for SD
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Little claw
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vampyrewolf
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If you want excellent concealment, check out Eric "Normark"s work. I have my fb05 out right now, he went hunting, and is about 2 weeks behind when he left, so it'll probably be another 2 weeks before I get mine back.
He specializes in concealment rigs... and is cheap to boot! This rig is running me 45cdn. G-clip and the factory tek-lock as attatchment options. Getting the factory rig back too, so I can give a real comparison on them.
I got a rig for the fb03 that I got back in march, and it spoiled me by the time I got the temp fixed. KNife and sheath were great, but tension on factory rig was loose. Other ppl could pull it out. The fb03 rig has to be pressed along the spine as you pull or it takes a lot of tugging. Also have it on the left side, which messes up ppl anyways.
The FB05(even with factory rig) excells in the Pikal grip/style(reverse/edge in), with the thumb dent. Set the rig for vertical edge back/tip down, and it pulls no problem. Great tip control, ultra-thin vg-10(I used mine for over a month before shipping, and other than a quick strop, it didn't get touched at all... still shaved after use at work and home every day), multi-position handle(fits like a glove)...
I have a couple reviews posted from right when I got the knife(june 16th to 18th).
I've looked at the Ronin(fb09) and it'd work great as a horizontal or neck carry. When I have cash to blow, I'll buy either a moran or ronin for horizontal carry, left/front of belt handle to right, edge down. Fb03 is too long for me to carry like that. I can see where it'd be useful: thin strong tip, full tip control, choil for choking up, mbc divots for grip change, pancake rig for easy IWB after you get a g or j-clip... But that handle could get slippery, whereas the temp handle can have chicken guts on it and still be secure.
<img src="http://www.members.shaw.ca/pjharyett/sp ... pyder5.gif">
Mei Fides, Mei Victus
<a href=http://www.members.shaw.ca/pjharyett>My Homepage </a>
He specializes in concealment rigs... and is cheap to boot! This rig is running me 45cdn. G-clip and the factory tek-lock as attatchment options. Getting the factory rig back too, so I can give a real comparison on them.
I got a rig for the fb03 that I got back in march, and it spoiled me by the time I got the temp fixed. KNife and sheath were great, but tension on factory rig was loose. Other ppl could pull it out. The fb03 rig has to be pressed along the spine as you pull or it takes a lot of tugging. Also have it on the left side, which messes up ppl anyways.
The FB05(even with factory rig) excells in the Pikal grip/style(reverse/edge in), with the thumb dent. Set the rig for vertical edge back/tip down, and it pulls no problem. Great tip control, ultra-thin vg-10(I used mine for over a month before shipping, and other than a quick strop, it didn't get touched at all... still shaved after use at work and home every day), multi-position handle(fits like a glove)...
I have a couple reviews posted from right when I got the knife(june 16th to 18th).
I've looked at the Ronin(fb09) and it'd work great as a horizontal or neck carry. When I have cash to blow, I'll buy either a moran or ronin for horizontal carry, left/front of belt handle to right, edge down. Fb03 is too long for me to carry like that. I can see where it'd be useful: thin strong tip, full tip control, choil for choking up, mbc divots for grip change, pancake rig for easy IWB after you get a g or j-clip... But that handle could get slippery, whereas the temp handle can have chicken guts on it and still be secure.
<img src="http://www.members.shaw.ca/pjharyett/sp ... pyder5.gif">
Mei Fides, Mei Victus
<a href=http://www.members.shaw.ca/pjharyett>My Homepage </a>
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jim_l_clifton
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Little claw
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Justin,
Any knife carried as a weapon is illegal, which is why I don't. What I am looking for here are options by which I can escalate my readiness, if a general or specific personal threat arises.
Any folding knife with a blade less than 3" is legal to carry without 'good reason', however the onus is on the carrier to prove good reason. 'Self defence' could be interpreted as 'intent', thereby reclassifying a legal object to 'weapon'.
Any item designed or modified to cause harm is illegal regardless of blade length, etc. This is where the Gunting might fall foul of the law. Carrying for self defence might be read as intent, and attending training, owning a trainer could affect the legality of my carrying the knife -- ironic the fact that having a less lethal option could make it less legal.
My thinking in knives is around two sets of options -- DefCon 4 and DefCon 3, if you like. Defcon 4 is to carry a legally deniable weapon, 3" folder such as Gunting, Lil Temp or Yojimbo.
Defcon 3 would include more purposeful fixed blades such as we are discussing, perhaps even up to larger classic 'fighter' styles. It might also include concealable impact weapons, etc. So legality is not an issue (except for the need to avoid undue scrutiny- hence concealment) at this readiness level.
I haven't given much thought to what defcons 2 & 1 would constitute, but maybe I should.
I live at Defcon 5, unarmed, able and aware. My goal in asking these questions is to be ready to adapt to any change in threat level as quickly as possible. Secondary objective is to be able to arm a loved one with minimal training, should they so need. Better to weigh my options and the risks that I'll be willing to take now, in the cool, calm light of day.
Thanks, Jim, for the suggestion. I was going to post a separate question re: Gunting vs. Lil Temperance, In this country, carrying a Gunting could land me that same punishment as a Commando knife, so better a sheep than a lamb, yes?! However, if the Gunting affords a tactical advantage (not legal) because of its design, then I am interested. Do you have any idea who the instructors in my area are, when Bram will be in the UK again -- or how to find this out?
Thanks
Dom
Any knife carried as a weapon is illegal, which is why I don't. What I am looking for here are options by which I can escalate my readiness, if a general or specific personal threat arises.
Any folding knife with a blade less than 3" is legal to carry without 'good reason', however the onus is on the carrier to prove good reason. 'Self defence' could be interpreted as 'intent', thereby reclassifying a legal object to 'weapon'.
Any item designed or modified to cause harm is illegal regardless of blade length, etc. This is where the Gunting might fall foul of the law. Carrying for self defence might be read as intent, and attending training, owning a trainer could affect the legality of my carrying the knife -- ironic the fact that having a less lethal option could make it less legal.
My thinking in knives is around two sets of options -- DefCon 4 and DefCon 3, if you like. Defcon 4 is to carry a legally deniable weapon, 3" folder such as Gunting, Lil Temp or Yojimbo.
Defcon 3 would include more purposeful fixed blades such as we are discussing, perhaps even up to larger classic 'fighter' styles. It might also include concealable impact weapons, etc. So legality is not an issue (except for the need to avoid undue scrutiny- hence concealment) at this readiness level.
I haven't given much thought to what defcons 2 & 1 would constitute, but maybe I should.
I live at Defcon 5, unarmed, able and aware. My goal in asking these questions is to be ready to adapt to any change in threat level as quickly as possible. Secondary objective is to be able to arm a loved one with minimal training, should they so need. Better to weigh my options and the risks that I'll be willing to take now, in the cool, calm light of day.
Thanks, Jim, for the suggestion. I was going to post a separate question re: Gunting vs. Lil Temperance, In this country, carrying a Gunting could land me that same punishment as a Commando knife, so better a sheep than a lamb, yes?! However, if the Gunting affords a tactical advantage (not legal) because of its design, then I am interested. Do you have any idea who the instructors in my area are, when Bram will be in the UK again -- or how to find this out?
Thanks
Dom
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Michael Janich
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Dear Little Claw:
Thanks for your post. I sympathize with your plight regarding the carry of knives in the UK and applaud your mature approach to the problem.
In answer to your question, I have done a lot of ballistic cutting with both the Ronin and the Temperance and found that both cut extremely well. In thrusting tests, the point of the Ronin penetrates better and with less effort than just about any knife I've ever used.
The availablility of a trainer for the Temperance is a definite plus. Although I have designed a trainer for the Ronin, there are no immediate plans to produce it. However, with a little skill and a few hours of work, it is possible to make a very good Ronin trainer out of aluminum, plastic or wood that would allow you to train safely.
The real difference between these two designs, in my opinion, is ease of concealment. I carry my Ronin concealed every day in a variety of modes of dress and have never had a problem. I cannot, however, effectively conceal a Temperance without a substantial cover garment.
I hope this helps. Thanks again for the question.
Stay safe,
mike j
Thanks for your post. I sympathize with your plight regarding the carry of knives in the UK and applaud your mature approach to the problem.
In answer to your question, I have done a lot of ballistic cutting with both the Ronin and the Temperance and found that both cut extremely well. In thrusting tests, the point of the Ronin penetrates better and with less effort than just about any knife I've ever used.
The availablility of a trainer for the Temperance is a definite plus. Although I have designed a trainer for the Ronin, there are no immediate plans to produce it. However, with a little skill and a few hours of work, it is possible to make a very good Ronin trainer out of aluminum, plastic or wood that would allow you to train safely.
The real difference between these two designs, in my opinion, is ease of concealment. I carry my Ronin concealed every day in a variety of modes of dress and have never had a problem. I cannot, however, effectively conceal a Temperance without a substantial cover garment.
I hope this helps. Thanks again for the question.
Stay safe,
mike j
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jim_l_clifton
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glockman99
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Little claw,
Although I have not yet had a chance to handle a Ronin, I do own a Temperance, and I think that it would make an excellent "defense" FB knife...That VG-10 steel is WICKED sharp, and the handle feels GREAT, with perfect balance.
Dann Fassnacht Aberdeen, WA glockman99@hotmail.com ICQ: 53675663
Although I have not yet had a chance to handle a Ronin, I do own a Temperance, and I think that it would make an excellent "defense" FB knife...That VG-10 steel is WICKED sharp, and the handle feels GREAT, with perfect balance.
Dann Fassnacht Aberdeen, WA glockman99@hotmail.com ICQ: 53675663
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Little claw
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Mike, thanks for the kind words, and also your take on my question.
I guess I realise that any decision, like any design, is going to involve some sort of compromise. What I'm looking for is opinions on tangible criteria - performance, portability, concealablilty, ease of deployment, safety - to help me make a practical decision. To that end, all of the input so far has been informative and helpful.
FWIW I'll probably end up buying both anyway, but these responses will still inform my decision as to what to carry and train with primarily.
Jim, in the UK, if I were to carry the drone it would be seen as a weapon (which it is - carrying it as a training tool, to and from training, would not be an excuse for having it clipped in my pocket). On the other hand, the Lil Temperance, for example, is excluded (in law) from being defined as a weapon, even though it is undoubtedly more destructive than the drone. I'd find this amusing if it wasn't so ridiculous. I don't understand the mentality that dictates that, even if you have a right to self defence (doubtful anyway) that you may not equip yourself for that purpose.
Obviously, people in the UK are only ever attacked by people with equal or lesser strength, skill, size numbers and aggression or else the law is an a$$(american definition of a$$ here).
Thanks for your offer, I am intrigued by the Gunting's potential, so I will be sure to take you up on it when I have managed to distill my questions.
Dom
Edited by - Little claw on 8/26/2003 6:04:55 PM
I guess I realise that any decision, like any design, is going to involve some sort of compromise. What I'm looking for is opinions on tangible criteria - performance, portability, concealablilty, ease of deployment, safety - to help me make a practical decision. To that end, all of the input so far has been informative and helpful.
FWIW I'll probably end up buying both anyway, but these responses will still inform my decision as to what to carry and train with primarily.
Jim, in the UK, if I were to carry the drone it would be seen as a weapon (which it is - carrying it as a training tool, to and from training, would not be an excuse for having it clipped in my pocket). On the other hand, the Lil Temperance, for example, is excluded (in law) from being defined as a weapon, even though it is undoubtedly more destructive than the drone. I'd find this amusing if it wasn't so ridiculous. I don't understand the mentality that dictates that, even if you have a right to self defence (doubtful anyway) that you may not equip yourself for that purpose.
Obviously, people in the UK are only ever attacked by people with equal or lesser strength, skill, size numbers and aggression or else the law is an a$$(american definition of a$$ here).
Thanks for your offer, I am intrigued by the Gunting's potential, so I will be sure to take you up on it when I have managed to distill my questions.
Dom
Edited by - Little claw on 8/26/2003 6:04:55 PM