P'KAL vs ELVIA reverse edge edc review and comparison

[ZrowsN1s]

As the title says this thread will be an EDC review of the Spyderco/Shivworks P'kal, as well as a comparison to the Emerson/Ed Calderon Elvia. Two knives that are very similar in design and purpose but have some subtle design differences I think are worth exploring.

I'll be adding to this thread over the next few weeks/months as I get to know these knives.

The first thing I'll start with is why.

Why EDC reverse edge or any self defense knife for that matter? In short, to make you better at self defense by deepening your familiarity with the knife, training muscle memory, and ensuring you're actually carrying the knife when you need it.

I've owned and carried a P'kal off and on for a long time. But it was always a 'dedicated' SD knife, in other words not used for EDC so the edge would always be at its sharpest. I even have a P'kal trainer. But despite my familiarity with the knife, I'd never actually done any real EDC cutting with a reverse edge. What I found when I started was despite SD practice, breaking down a cardboard box was awkward. After a few weeks of EDC, it is no longer awkward. And I'm starting to see advantages to reverse edge as EDC beyond self defense applications. If you've ever cut thick material that binds the blade and you end up having to 'muscle' through the cut, you've encountered a situation where reverse edge would be an advantage. Reverse edge cuts let you use your biceps instead of your triceps. It makes it much easier to muscle through tough material.


I think that's enough to start the thread. If you carry a P'kal or reverse edge knife, or have questions about them, please share your questions and experiences.

[ZrowsN1s]

First comparison, positive blade angle/blade position. I tried to hold my hand in the same position for both shots, though I think I cocked my wrist in a little more in the P'kal shot. Regardless you can see the points of the two knives differ in where they end up by an inch and a half or more.

The blade angle at the tip seems to be the same on both knives, but the Elvia takes a more dramatic curve to get there.

Which do you prefer? I'm leaning towards the Elvia, but need to use the P'Kal a little more before I have a definitive preference.

[VashHash]

Just looking at them I feel the pkal would pierce easier. The elvia has more of a hawkbill curvature to it. I had a pkal for some time but eventually sold it because I preferred the versatility of the yo2. I would suggest maybe doing a point on target comparison. Showing your natural stab and where each point is.

[ZrowsN1s]

Just looking at them I feel the pkal would pierce easier. The elvia has more of a hawkbill curvature to it. I had a pkal for some time but eventually sold it because I preferred the versatility of the yo2. I would suggest maybe doing a point on target comparison. Showing your natural stab and where each point is.

That's a good idea. I've done some penetration testing with rolls of paper towels. It's always interesting to me what knives will go through and which will bind up. I've had knives like the Yo2 that I was sure would have a easy time bind up. And knives I didn't think would do well like the Delica sail through.

In regards to the P'kal and Elvia both are top of the class for any knives I've tested. The Elvia penetrates slightly better than the P'kal in my testing. I think this is because the blade is not as tall(wide) as the P'kal. That seems to make a bigger difference than the distal taper and full flat grind of the P'kal vs the saber grind of the Elvia.

I'll post some pics of the point on target test tomorrow. And some blade comparison shots too.

[twinboysdad]

I’ll pass on the liner lock…

[TomH]

Thanks for doing this comparison.

I used to own the P'kal and the trainer. Everything about that knife was good except that it opened to easily for me. Still, I plan on getting the upcoming mini version.

[ZrowsN1s]

I’ll pass on the liner lock…

That is the biggest reason to carry the P'kal over the Elvia for me too. I've never been a fan of liner locks, and for strength and reliability the CBBL is as good as it gets. That said each design has it's strengths and weaknesses. My ideal knife probably lies somewhere in between both of them.

[Blue72]

The piercing ability is what made me fall in love with the P’kal

During cut tests for self defense applications, I was surprised how many knives did shallow cuts or dulled quickly after a few cuts

But with the P’kal just stab and rrrrriiiiiiippppppp!!! Every single time

I love the sewing machine action too

I hope I never use it for self defense in my life time. Because I never want to witness the brutality of this thing

[ZrowsN1s]

I would suggest maybe doing a point on target comparison. Showing your natural stab and where each point is.

So I set this up to take some comparison pics. The idea was a fixed height target, and me keeping my arm at a 90° angle with my elbow/triceps flat against the dresser for a starting position. About 3 inches away from target. Hopefully this will illustrate where the point ends up on target within the natural arc of an extending forearm. Right off the bat it is worth again noting how easily both knives penetrate a paper towel roll with minimal force and only a 3-4 inch wind up, many knives in my collection bind up and fail to cleanly penetrate even at full force.


Here's a shot of the blades on top of eachother. They are about the same stock thickness, though the P'kal has a full distal taper and flat grind. The Elvia with its saber grind only tapers at the very tip.


This is where the point lands on the target with my arm at 90° resting flat on the dresser.
(Perpendicular to target)


(Parallel to target)



Here is parallel to the target after about three inches of forward movement along the arc of my forearm extension. You can kind of get an idea of what path the blade will take as it enters the target.



Here is the result of the perpendicular to the target stabs. Starting point again was 3-4 inches away from target, elbow flat on table, arm at 90°.




It was interesting to see the angle of the handle afterwards. I think the curve of the Elvias blade and the path the blade took inside the paper towel material caused the handle to stick up like that at the end. Meaning the blade likely moves downward slightly as it enters the target.

Thoughts?

[sal]

Hi Zrows,

Thanx for the thoughts, effort and for sharing. Good stuff.

sal

[mark greenman]

I think one of the biggest advantages of the P'kal is that it opens as quickly and with nearly the reliability of a fixed blade due to its large wave + ball lock. Setup in the front pocket of a pair of jeans you'd almost have to work at it to draw without deploying the blade.

https://youtu.be/e-p4YmUJ4PA

Whereas from the looks of it the Elvia, at least this model, does not have a wave feature at all. Which is odd given that its supposed to be deployed into a reverse grip in a self defense situation and the knife is made by the inventor of the wave...

While a normal knife does not need a wave, one being deployed in reverse grip really does - otherwise you have to essentially deploy it in forward grip then shift to reverse. Or I guess pinch the knife and wrist flick it downwards. Neither of which seem intuitive or reliable to due in a SD scenario.

[JD Spydo]

Well first off let me say that I do have a lot of respect for Ernest Emerson's blades. I've met and chatted with the guy once a few years back at one of the BLADE Shows and this guy knows cutlery I can assure you.

But I tend to agree with Mark Greenman that Spyderco's P'Kal model is just a bit more sturdy built>> at least that's been my overall experience putting Spyderco blades and Emerson blades for a side by side comparison. But in all fairness Mr. Emerson seems to specialize in the SD market and I do think he ranks well in that category.

I've never had this Emerson ELVIA model in my hand before>> but If I were to buy either knife it would be the Spyderco P'Kal and I wouldn't have to think much about it either.

[VashHash]

I would suggest maybe doing a point on target comparison. Showing your natural stab and where each point is.

Thoughts?

I think I'd need to hold an elvia to see how it works. The curvature just looks a little over done. Probably why the blade goes back so far to bring the point up. Nice to see these 2 compared though. Thanks.

[PeaceInOurTime]

I've not been super interested in SD knives, but this has caught my attention. Thanks for the time and effort put into this thread!

[twinboysdad]

I think one of the biggest advantages of the P'kal is that it opens as quickly and with nearly the reliability of a fixed blade due to its large wave + ball lock. Setup in the front pocket of a pair of jeans you'd almost have to work at it to draw without deploying the blade.

https://youtu.be/e-p4YmUJ4PA

Whereas from the looks of it the Elvia, at least this model, does not have a wave feature at all. Which is odd given that its supposed to be deployed into a reverse grip in a self defense situation and the knife is made by the inventor of the wave...

While a normal knife does not need a wave, one being deployed in reverse grip really does - otherwise you have to essentially deploy it in forward grip then shift to reverse. Or I guess pinch the knife and wrist flick it downwards. Neither of which seem intuitive or reliable to due in a SD scenario.

I saw this test and was reminded of your LBHB yoga mat test. I bought a LBHB shortly after, albeit the Salt

[ZrowsN1s]

Hi Zrows,

Thanx for the thoughts, effort and for sharing. Good stuff.

sal

Thanks Sal

........
Whereas from the looks of it the Elvia, at least this model, does not have a wave feature at all. Which is odd given that its supposed to be deployed into a reverse grip in a self defense situation and the knife is made by the inventor of the wave...
........

It is interesting. I can only speculate this was a conscious design decision by Ed Calderon. The knife is set up for right hand tip up carry. There are no clip holes on the other side, so not only is there no wave, there is no reverse draw either. I have seen it stated on Instagram by Ernie's daughter that Emerson Knives has no plans to ever make a waved version of the Elvia. There are only a few of his hand ground customs that have it.

Again total speculation here, but if I had to guess why they would make this design choice, two things come to mind. First off is, this knife is based on a knife Ed's Mother (Elvia) carried, a utility/peeling blade that also worked well for defense if needed. That blade obviously had no wave, perhaps they left it off to remain more true to the original.

Second reason may be that in a few knife systems like one associated with Ed, the idea of a preemptive covert draw is a thing. In other words, you see the telltale signs of an eminent threat and you discreetly draw your knife and conceal it at the ready under folded arms or at your side etc. With a little practice it's pretty easy to draw and orient into RGEI grip doing this.

These knife systems also have techniques for reverse edge held in forward grip as well. Which is how you'd end up if you had to draw the knife quickly.

Strictly for self defense applications.... The Wave, ability to reverse draw, and the CBBL are the reasons I would choose the P'kal over the Elvia. I would probably pick the handle and blade shape of the Elvia over the P'kal though. For SD I'd take a saber grind, with no distal taper, in a steel like 154cm heat treated on the softer side like Emerson does. Less chance of a broken blade or tip. By making the blade half as tall as the P'kal it penetrates just as well if not better. For SD if I could get the Elvia with a wave, reverse draw, and a CBBL, my search for the perfect SD knife would be over.

Now for EDC, I think the P'kal is going to come out way ahead with the S30V, taller blade, full distal taper, and flat grind. Add in the Spyderhole, CBBL, and wave, for a knife that has to wear both hats edc and sd, I think the P'kal is probably the better choice.

But we'll see.