What does it take to make full SE?

[bjz]

Bits and pieces of this have been discussed in the past…I’ve lurked around enough to see them, but I’m wondering what it REALLY takes for the folks making the decisions to get to where they feel it’s worth while tooling up to provide SE options of existing knives? Especially when combo edges are already an option.

Yep, I was definitely looking forward to the early mentioned SE resilience LW, but understand if the maker can’t make it happen.

What I’m wondering is why couldn’t the rest of the value line and Byrd knives be offered in full SE when they pretty much all have a combo edge option currently and all shorter than the tenacious SE? Is it really that much more expensive and difficult to manufacture to be worth while?

Lately I’ve been thinking that my efficient and Byrd harrier 2 would both be phenomenal blades in SE, especially the rounded shallow Byrd teeth! Heck, let’s add the astute to that list, and the polestar…full teeth would put me over the edge toward acquiring both!

If this has already been beat to death and I somehow missed it, I apologize for digging up the past.

[Wartstein]

Since it fits this thread title so well, I may add my question one last time:

- Why did it "take too much" in the end to bring out the already announced Tenacious S35VN in full SE?

I get that there never was a full SE Resilience and so the maker perhaps does not have a grinding wheel large enough or whatever.

But the Tenacious DOES come in full SE already (in 8CR..) so the equipment for that full SE must be there..
and the maker CAN grind teeth in S35VN, since this is done on the S35VN comboedge Tenacious..

I am really generally interested in the "why".. and yes, a full SE S35VN Tenacious LW would come close to my perfect EDC folder.

[zhyla]

I don’t think it’s a physical limitation. I think it’s just about price point.

[sal]

Mostly it has to do with what the maker thinks they can successfully do.

sal

[bjz]

Mostly it has to do with what the maker thinks they can successfully do.

sal

Well, I’d say they did a dang good job with the tenacious! Thank you, and them.

[yablanowitz]

Grinding serrations is not something that is done one by one, they are done all at once on a shaped wheel. Combo edges are normally a short section on a straight portion of the blade edge. I'd bet a single shaped wheel could be used to produce combo edges on several different blades. Keeping the blade perfectly aligned while a short section by the ricasso is ground is easier than holding that same blade while the entire length of the edge is ground.

There is also the matter of how easy it is to machine the steel. They may balk at making a full SE version of the Tenacious in S35VN just because it wears the tooling faster than 8Cr13MoV, meaning they would have to dress the wheel more often, which in turn impacts the consistency of the final product. Give them a few more years of working with these higher end steels and they may come around.

[bjz]

Give them a few more years of working with these higher end steels and they may come around.

I didn’t really think about the “straight section” of the combo edge too much, mainly because they seem to do a pretty good job with both the Byrd hawkbill and SE tenacious.

And frankly, I’m one of those guys who likes 8cr, especially with teeth! I also really enjoy the design factor of most of the Byrd/Value line offerings. ****, if spyderco chose to do a 180 and only use 8cr, vg-10, and bd1n, and focus on the Byrd/value/rockjumper/stretch lines, including full SE versions, I’d be a happy camper! Shoot, a tenacious LW with color scale options and and SE sheepsfoot blade (like the Caribbean) could be the only knife I ever need, even in 8cr (but bd1n would be rad, or I suppose s35vn).

[S-3 ranch]

Since it fits this thread title so well, I may add my question one last time:

- Why did it "take too much" in the end to bring out the already announced Tenacious S35VN in full SE?

I get that there never was a full SE Resilience and so the maker perhaps does not have a grinding wheel large enough or whatever.

But the Tenacious DOES come in full SE already (in 8CR..) so the equipment for that full SE must be there..
and the maker CAN grind teeth in S35VN, since this is done on the S35VN comboedge Tenacious..

I am really generally interested in the "why".. and yes, a full SE S35VN Tenacious LW would come close to my perfect EDC folder.

100% want this to be my next EDC knives
But might just have to buy a Pac salt 2

[zhyla]

Grinding serrations is not something that is done one by one, they are done all at once on a shaped wheel.

Are you sure about that? All the serration wheels I’ve seen are narrow. Looking at my Stretch it’s pretty clear it was not ground in one shot.

[yablanowitz]

Am I certain? I'm just going by what Sal has posted in the past. He could be wrong, I suppose.

[Pancake]

Just for perspective, this is how diamond coated wheel for serration looks like
But as you can see, you can only make a straight line with it.
How Spyderco is doing curves (belly, recurve) is black magic to me.
Edit: what do I know, maybe you can somehow make a serration on belly portion with it.

[Wartstein]

Grinding serrations is not something that is done one by one, they are done all at once on a shaped wheel. Combo edges are normally a short section on a straight portion of the blade edge. I'd bet a single shaped wheel could be used to produce combo edges on several different blades. Keeping the blade perfectly aligned while a short section by the ricasso is ground is easier than holding that same blade while the entire length of the edge is ground.

There is also the matter of how easy it is to machine the steel. They may balk at making a full SE version of the Tenacious in S35VN just because it wears the tooling faster than 8Cr13MoV, meaning they would have to dress the wheel more often, which in turn impacts the consistency of the final product. Give them a few more years of working with these higher end steels and they may come around.

Thanks a lot, I´ve asked my question about why they did not bring out that already announced full SE S35VN Tenacious in the end in several threads already.
You´re actually the first one with a real good reply and possible explanation, as far as I can recall.

[JD Spydo]

I continue to long for the days when just about every Spyderco folder made was also offered in SE. It was about 2005 it seems when that was no longer an option. Because from about 1995 to 2005 you could get almost any of Spyderco's mainline folders in full SE.

At some point I look for many of those past SE models that are now lesser known to most forum members to soon become serious collector pieces in full SE.

Most people presently here on the forum will never know how great that the Catcherman, Viele, JD Smith and RENEGADE models were in full SE.
Especially the original full SE Catcherman model in full SE. Spyderco's great serrated folder models are the ones that paved the way for Spyderco to be the success that they have become.

[yablanowitz]

Just for perspective, this is how diamond coated wheel for serration looks like
But as you can see, you can only make a straight line with it.
How Spyderco is doing curves (belly, recurve) is black magic to me.
Edit: what do I know, maybe you can somehow make a serration on belly portion with it.

Picture that same wheel being three times as wide, and instead of each peak being the same height (wheel diameter), picture them getting taller and taller as you go from the right side to the left. Or shorter, then taller, so the overall shape of the wheel matches the shape of the blade, so when the edge of the blade is in contact with the wheel, it makes a shape like this:



Now imagine holding that blade dead straight and level in all three planes while it contacts the wheel at the exact height to produce that precise shape and the desired angle, every time, even as the wheel wears down changing the diameter.

Serrations are not as simple as people think.

[Pancake]

Serrations are not as simple as people think.

Yes, the way you described it makes sense.

[zhyla]

Picture that same wheel being three times as wide, and instead of each peak being the same height (wheel diameter), picture them getting taller and taller as you go from the right side to the left. Or shorter, then taller, so the overall shape of the wheel matches the shape of the blade,

I understand what you’re describing. But I doubt that is how it’s done. For one thing you would need custom profile grinding wheels for each model. And you’d see imperfections in the serration depths due to variations in blade geometry from unit to unit. Also you wouldn’t see the differences in serration geometry that we see from one end to the other.

My assumption is they use the narrower wheel shown above and use the standard trick for cutting serrations of overlapping the stone with the previously cut serration. This lets you follow the curve of the belly on an arbitrarily long knife.

Tricky business no doubt, but simpler than having wheels designed custom per model.

[yablanowitz]

Picture that same wheel being three times as wide, and instead of each peak being the same height (wheel diameter), picture them getting taller and taller as you go from the right side to the left. Or shorter, then taller, so the overall shape of the wheel matches the shape of the blade,

I understand what you’re describing. But I doubt that is how it’s done. For one thing you would need custom profile grinding wheels for each model. And you’d see imperfections in the serration depths due to variations in blade geometry from unit to unit. Also you wouldn’t see the differences in serration geometry that we see from one end to the other.

My assumption is they use the narrower wheel shown above and use the standard trick for cutting serrations of overlapping the stone with the previously cut serration. This lets you follow the curve of the belly on an arbitrarily long knife.

Tricky business no doubt, but simpler than having wheels designed custom per model.

Your way makes sense for one-off customs. I'm talking about mass production, doing hundreds or thousands of pieces at a time. Which makes more sense, cutting 3 or 6 scallops at a time, repeating 3 or 4 times to do one blade, then repeating a thousand times for one production run, or making a single shaped wheel for each model? How much variation from piece to piece would you get each way, how many QC rejects would each be likely to generate?

As far as following the curve of the blade, they don't. The centerlines of the scallops are parallel for the length of the blade, regardless of the curvature.

[Ramonade]

Considering how Sal or other representatives have talked about this like they talk about the investment for a FRN mould, I would say custom wheel made for each model.
This means totally different budget in that case.
Then the steel enters into account, and that must be a whole other problem lol

[yablanowitz]

Yup. The harder the steel is to machine, the faster it's going to wear that custom-made wheel. They are familiar with working 8Cr13MoV, they know how fast they can grind it without warping or burning the steel, and they have a good idea how fast the abrasives they are using are going to wear as well. There is a learning curve with every new steel and at the risk of sounding political, the Chinese makers have always seemed more interested in producing volume than blazing new trails. They have their 8Cr13MoV processes dialed in, and I'm old and set in my ways enough that I can't really fault them for wanting to take their time getting their processes dialed in for other steels.