Backpacking knife ?

[Tucson Tom]

The fact that a capable locking folder is being dismissed and mocked in the same thread as a single edged razor blade is justified as enough knife says a lot.

I neither dismissed nor mocked a "capable folder".

I have on several week long backpack trips carried a single edged razor blade as my "knife" and found it entirely capable for every cutting task that presented itself.

It is often worth breaking out of entrenched habits of thinking, i.e. "I gotta have a knife when I am backpacking". I have been with people who were shocked that I didn't intend to build a fire while camping. "What the heck for?" was my response. There is nothing wrong with fires on occasion, but they are by no means necessary. Be flexible.

Consider also that a single edge razor blade is about 3 grams, compared to 70 (2.5 ounces) for a Native 5.

The saying among the ultralight backpacking crowd is that ounces add up to pounds and pounds add up to pain.

[Blnd]

A DF2 has been my backpacking and hiking companion for many years and many miles.

[Josh1973]

I always find this "survival tool" mentality amusing. Most survival scenarios boil down to operator error.

Your best survival tool is between your two ears, or ought to be. It is hard to imagine any scenario where a knife will be a critical asset, or where the same weight could not be exchanged for something else of far greater value. But people love this "man versus the wilderness" mindset and load their packs down with "what if" type items.

the tool between your ears isn't going to cut something for you. it's going to tell you to bring something adequate when you head into a situation where you might encounter the need to cut something. personally, i carry edc knives that can at least be pushed to survival tools. when i'm purposely heading into the wilderness, i usually carry something a little more specialized and/or durable. people have always relied on sharpened tools for survival. and the wilderness isn't necessarily against us, but that doesn't mean it's all rainbows and singing either. i'm not sure why it's amusing to want to be prepared.

You are smart. I like your thinking and logic. Very refreshing.

[Josh1973]

Double posted. Happens if you edit. My apologies.

[Josh1973]

???

[Josh1973]

Double posted by accident.

[Josh1973]

I neither dismissed nor mocked a "capable folder".

I have on several week long backpack trips carried a single edged razor blade as my "knife" and found it entirely capable for every cutting task that presented itself.

It is often worth breaking out of entrenched habits of thinking, i.e. "I gotta have a knife when I am backpacking". I have been with people who were shocked that I didn't intend to build a fire while camping. "What the heck for?" was my response. There is nothing wrong with fires on occasion, but they are by no means necessary. Be flexible.

Consider also that a single edge razor blade is about 3 grams, compared to 70 (2.5 ounces) for a Native 5.

The saying among the ultralight backpacking crowd is that ounces add up to pounds and pounds add up to pain.

I get that there is such a thing as too much weight. I won't argue that. If I was concerned about weight. I would just carry a 2.5 to 4 ounce knife and ditch an extra pair of jeans or something else to equal out the weight difference. I am 48 and nowhere near the strength of Brock Lesnar or even a young athletic man/woman. And I can carry 20 to 40 lbs of gear for 12 to 20 miles depending on environment.

Lemme ask you. Can you take a razor blade and make a spear by lashing it to a stick? Chop limbs, baton, Or carve out traps without risking breaking or dulling the edge? Go ahead and break the razor by accident and lob open your thumb. Now you got a potential life or death emergency in the middle of the wilderness. Even a SAK would outperform a razor blade in all areas. Including safety. Oh you dropped the razor blade and can't find it? Well I can easily find my orange handled Moraknife Companion on the ground.
I am a decent survivalist. But I am not deluded enough to think I can carry a razor blade and fire steel and conquer Siberia or any rugged remote terrain. People die when they let stupidity and ego take over their brain

There are very few people. Including survivalists themselves who are on or beyond the skill level of Matt Graham, Cody Lundin, or any professional survivalist. And even Cody Lundin. Who is so hard core that he don't wear shoes. Carries a Mora over a razor blade as his primary knife. Seems awful odd that not one professional survivalist recommends carrying a razor blade over a small knife. Even African and Malaysian tribes who look at survival as every day life carry more than a razor blade.
So yes you in effect are dismissing and mocking both common sense, professional and amateur survivalists, and a capable folder. You would never hike with me or be welcome at my camp trying to teach people methods that lead to injury and death. I don't like to be harsh in my words. But you telling people to not carry a small knife. And fire is not a necessity. Is hogwash.

[Tucson Tom]

So yes you in effect are dismissing and mocking both common sense, professional and amateur survivalists, and a capable folder. You would never hike with me or be welcome at my camp trying to teach people methods that lead to injury and death. I don't like to be harsh in my words. But you telling people to not carry a small knife. And fire is not a necessity. Is hogwash.

We are really talking about two different things. Backpacking and this "survivalist" skill stuff are worlds apart.

I tend to think all of this survivalist business is fantasy world stuff and Hollywood, but that's just me.

[Doc Dan]

If you hike along the well marked trails around town, maybe you don't need a knife...but it couldn't hurt to be prepared. If you hike in some of the places I used to hike you had better have a knife, with a backup, and a gun too, for that matter. It is the price of survival. I've seen too many shivering people who could not even build a simple shelter when the weather unexpected turned bad, or got out there and it was further than they realized (map distances are not ground distances, as a rule). You should have a good knife, all of the time when outdoors. If you carry one in town for EDC you much more need one out there.

[James Y]

Valuing having a knife and being at least minimally prepared for unexpected circumstances in itself is not a Hollywood-inspired "Rambo" mentality, so I don't get that.

If ultralight backpackers want to go completely minimal, why carry anything at all? There are day hikers who don't even carry water (and end up in trouble because of it).

I know many people who go their whole lives never carrying any knife at all, period. So are those of us who EDC a pocketknife in daily life fantasists for doing so? Most don't need a tool, such as a pocketknife, until they do. That's kind of the whole point of having a pocketknife, especially lightweight ones.

Anyway, I don't care enough to argue about it, I just find it a little curious. Everybody's different. Personally, I'll accept the sacrifice and carry a couple ounces of at least one knife (whichever it is). I'll happily do so, knowing that there are some people out there who consider those who do to be self-deluded, laughable figures.

Jim

[Tucson Tom]

I was just reading a book about times in the old west and ran across this:

"We carried pistols because everyone else did, not because we needed them particularly, but because of the sense of security and almost companionship."

As I have said, I often carry my Native 5 while backpacking. Sometimes I carry nothing at all. Next time, and in honor of this thread, I may carry my Ankerson/Sanders Bowie, not that I expect to need it particularly, but it will certainly make a nice companion, especially on a weekend trip.

[Matus]

I like to carry a knife - simply because I do :)

However I tend to be a little more relaxed about it - simply because the spectrum of types of hikes or trips (starting with an half an hour walk in local city park all the way to a multi-week wilderness expeditions) is large. When I look back at the little hickups or unexpected events that I have experienced where I had to solve a certain situation - I need to be honest - most of the time it was not the knife that was essential for the given situation, but it was having proper clothing, charged phone, enough water, flashlight a piece of paracord, map and a first aid kit (plaster can be SUPER important). I never had to spend unplanned night in mountains - in what case ability to make fire and maybe even build some shelter (I would probably fail spectacularly) would likely be relevant.

[aicolainen]

The fact that a capable locking folder is being dismissed and mocked in the same thread as a single edged razor blade is justified as enough knife says a lot.

I neither dismissed nor mocked a "capable folder".

I have on several week long backpack trips carried a single edged razor blade as my "knife" and found it entirely capable for every cutting task that presented itself.

It is often worth breaking out of entrenched habits of thinking, i.e. "I gotta have a knife when I am backpacking". I have been with people who were shocked that I didn't intend to build a fire while camping. "What the heck for?" was my response. There is nothing wrong with fires on occasion, but they are by no means necessary. Be flexible.

Consider also that a single edge razor blade is about 3 grams, compared to 70 (2.5 ounces) for a Native 5.

The saying among the ultralight backpacking crowd is that ounces add up to pounds and pounds add up to pain.

I wasn't referring to you and I'm sorry if I came across that way. And it really doesn't matter who said it or who's right, the point I was making is that people's opinions on this topic is widely different and surprisingly determined.

I enjoy many flavors of backpacking so I'm very open minded with regards to this topic and has been so throughout the thread. In my opinion everything from no knife at all and up to a machete could be the best choice for a specific backpacking trip. Experienced hikers who make extreme trade offs usually know what their doing. Beginners OTOH are probably wise to avoid the extreme ends of the gear spectrum.

As a more general reply to the thread and the tangent it's on;

There are several factors that determine the utility of a knife, some of which seems slightly overlooked in this thread; the availability of substance that benefits from cutting and reasons you may want to do so varies a lot depending on circumstance (distance from shelter/support, altitude, length/duration of hike, purpose/nature of the hike, season, experience, fitness, knowledge of the area etc.). Depending on circumstance there are often alternative solutions to cutting something that will equally or better serve your well being. And also, the benefit of cutting anything varies a lot with personal skill set.

I.e. picking the right cutting tool (or any tool, really) is a balancing act based on the nature of the hike/backpacking trip and your ability to utilize the tool. In simplified form one could say that the utility of a knife diminishes with altitude, unless your climbing. As you go higher there is just less and less stuff around you that gain added value from being processed with a knife.

Backpacking in a group, on popular trails and/or close to civilization reduces the risk of needing to stay self sustained in the case of an unexpected incident.

A knife is a very generic tool and can serve you in lots of ways, but it isn't always the best tool. Anecdotally I came to think of when Mike Horn's tent caught fire in the arctic and he barely managed to save him self and his satellite phone. The phone was only good at one single thing, but as he was standing there in his underwear, alone on the ice, I'm quite certain he was very happy with his choice of what piece of equipment to save from the flames.
To pack effectively one has to take a hard look at the different scenarios that are likely to unfold and pack somewhat specifically for those. It is somewhat of a gamble, but the risk is manageable. As with most things in life. Packing lots of generic equipment as to be prepared for any scenario that might emerge poses its own set of risks and drawbacks.

This last section segues nicely into skill set. An aspiring backpacker should pack a bit more generic and just in case equipment. In the early days of a backpacking career that's basically the antidote to lack of experience. Still the weight of the pack should be kept reasonable to compensate for lack of (backpacking)fitness and poor decision making that aren't all too uncommon in the beginning.
As one gain experience more and more gear can be removed from the pack, some gear is replaced with better/lighter/more suitable gear, and you also save weight by packing more and more specifically for the trip ahead.
The caveat to this antidote is to keep in mind that most tools are of little use if you haven't invested the time to use them skillfully. If you've never used a map and compass, it will only be extra weight in your pack. The same could be somewhat true for knives, the idea of using a knife for survival in some of the ways suggested is very far out, not only for the occasional weekend warrior, but even for most experienced backpackers. Making spears, setting up traps and that sort of thing usually pays off very poorly versus the calories invested, and that's even if you happen to be skilled at it. For most people it would be counter productive.

It's OK to favor the knife, this is a knife forum, so we are inherently biased. If you really like your hammer, you look for nails everywhere. As much as we feel absolutely naked without a knife, and often feel that bigger and fixed'er is better, that shouldn't prevent us from viewing other peoples priorities through an objective lens.

[aicolainen]

I never had to spend unplanned night in mountains - in what case ability to make fire and maybe even build some shelter (I would probably fail spectacularly) would likely be relevant.

I love your self reflection and honesty.
I think many backpackers and hikers can identify with this line of thought.

[ladybug93]

i don't get to do much real backpacking. i have a large family and i'm typically carrying a kid in a carrier on short day hikes when i get to get out. when you have to carry a kid instead of a backpack, you have to really evaluate what you bring. usually, i'll carry a space blanket tarp (which is absolutely not big enough for my whole family, but you can only do what you can do and it can provide a little cover and/or warmth) rolled up around a few lightweight stakes and some cordage, some kind of water filter or metal container for boiling, a very small fire kit (mini bic, small ferro rod, some vaseline cotton balls in straws, charred lamp wick, and weatherproof matches) that fits in a uco match case, and the knives i previously mentioned. basically, i try to have at least the 5 c's (from dave canterbury) on me when i go hiking. and i can't let the fact that i can't carry a backpack be the excuse for not being prepared to take care of my family if things go bad suddenly. there's too much at stake to not be at least a little prepared.

i love being out in nature. i find it very refreshing and necessary. i totally understand the romanticism of being out there with nothing, or next to nothing. i've gone out to practice fire making after a rain with nothing by my knife, a piece of charred lamp wick, and a piece of steel. i even had to find and process a rock to strike my steel with. it was awesome when i got that fire going, but even then, i was never more than 200 yards away from my car and leaving. all that to say, i get it, but i don't think it's responsible to go out with nothing. your knowledge can take you a long way, but if you don't have certain tools at your disposal, it can take longer than you have (or be outside of your diminished capabilities resulting from an emergency situation) to recreate them naturally. a good knife is one of those tools.

[aicolainen]

i don't get to do much real backpacking. i have a large family and i'm typically carrying a kid in a carrier on short day hikes when i get to get out. when you have to carry a kid instead of a backpack, you have to really evaluate what you bring. usually, i'll carry a space blanket tarp (which is absolutely not big enough for my whole family, but you can only do what you can do and it can provide a little cover and/or warmth) rolled up around a few lightweight stakes and some cordage, some kind of water filter or metal container for boiling, a very small fire kit (mini bic, small ferro rod, some vaseline cotton balls in straws, charred lamp wick, and weatherproof matches) that fits in a uco match case, and the knives i previously mentioned. basically, i try to have at least the 5 c's (from dave canterbury) on me when i go hiking. and i can't let the fact that i can't carry a backpack be the excuse for not being prepared to take care of my family if things go bad suddenly. there's too much at stake to not be at least a little prepared.

i love being out in nature. i find it very refreshing and necessary. i totally understand the romanticism of being out there with nothing, or next to nothing. i've gone out to practice fire making after a rain with nothing by my knife, a piece of charred lamp wick, and a piece of steel. i even had to find and process a rock to strike my steel with. it was awesome when i got that fire going, but even then, i was never more than 200 yards away from my car and leaving. all that to say, i get it, but i don't think it's responsible to go out with nothing. your knowledge can take you a long way, but if you don't have certain tools at your disposal, it can take longer than you have (or be outside of your diminished capabilities resulting from an emergency situation) to recreate them naturally. a good knife is one of those tools.

I think this is where the core of the dissonance is buried.
It's not about taking the whole kitchen sink or nothing at all.
It's about balance.
Dave Canterbury is at one end of the spectrum, most backpackers would suffer tremendously if left with only his set of tools and no training in advance. But there are also other safety barriers at our disposal, more aligned with the needs of most modern backpackers. Neither approach is right or wrong, just different.
Again, it's about purpose and balance.
Going backpacking in the winter where even a single critical fault can be fatal I dial up on safety and redundancy, bringing my kids I dial it up further.
But it's not irresponsible to dial down on safety when the conditions you must endure are humane and predictable. This extends to everything we do.

I think the low bar backpacking/outdoor "expeditions" you're doing with your family is really great.
There are so many directions the outdoor interest of our little ones can take (or not take at all), so being introduced early to the outdoors and taking a down to earth simple and safe approach that is paced right for the needs of the kids, and not necessarily for the parents, is the best start they can get.
Before I had kids my outdoor adventures had pretty much evolved to be all about highest, fastest, longest or furthest. By being out in nature with my kids I have re-learned to appreciate the whole spectrum of outdoor life again. Taking it slow, observing nature, making fires, food and practicing simple bush craft skills. Another benefit of having kids and setting the bar lower, is that I actually spend more time outside than I did before.

[Bolster]

But I am always a bit confused by the BLADE to weight comparisons... I think more important would be CUTTING EDGE to weight...? (Again, despite the Bugout "wins" there over the Salt, the latter is still the better ultralight option by far for me).

Blade length for penetration considerations. I have the edge length comparison graphic also, but it'll have to wait until work this evening.

[bearfacedkiller]

I have backpacked in the backcountry where a sprained ankle meant at least a night in the woods and I have backpacked on trails that were basically highways and a sprained ankle meant waiting 15 minutes for the next group to come along. Clearly there are different requirements for different places. On one trail a razor blade is great, on a another a Delica is a better idea and on yet another you probably want a fixed blade. Arguing about what is the best tool is silly.

Also, we are knife geeks. Of course we are gonna carry more knife than we need. Most backpackers justify one luxury item. For me it is a knife. I don’t drink coffee so right there I make up for the weight since most people I know need to bring coffee with them which I consider to be one of those said luxury items.

[Bolster]

I don’t drink coffee so right there I make up for the weight since most people I know need to bring coffee with them which I consider to be one of those said luxury items.

There ya go! Same story here. I will splurge an entire extra ounce or two on a knife that's a lil more than I need, just because it's important to me. My custom lightened mule is just 2.4 oz (sheath +0.4), and that gives me 3.5" of blade on a fixie, that's a decent amount of knife. The Bradley Air is but 1.2 oz, so the mule is an outrageous 1.6 oz splurge for me (Bradley Air being the minimum I'd pack with).

Regards the requested weight-to-edge ratios, I thought I had them. I do not. I need to make a new spreadsheet for that.

[vivi]

honestly I feel like ya'll are over thinking this. carry a knife that will cut the stuff you expect to need to cut, it ain't that complicated.