Combo Comp/Linerlock

[JakeXman]

How about an engineering challenge? (Dead serious, this is light hearted but not a joke)

Inspired by Warty’s comment in another thread, I think you could actually have a combination comp lock and liner lock that sacrifices ergonomics for options.

Here’s what I’m thinking:
Take a para 3 lightweight LEFTY (or a completely new design, I don’t mind). First of all, make the comp lock tab and lock interface have a secondary tab extending to the finger-choil-area to make a liner lock tab (this would have to be a lefty-comp-lock righty-liner-lock). Doing this obviously removes the metal connecting to the pivot, but that’s fine—unlinered FRN works fantastically! Put a full liner on the non lock liner so not all structural integrity is lost. Extend the frn on the lockside to form a proper frn pivot in the absence of liner. Retool the molds completely and boom! Options!

In my late night mind this makes sense; what do y’all think? If not practical or realistic, it’s fun to think about!

[Wartstein]

I feel honored that you think about my "idea" (which of course was 110 % meant as a joke..)

But now I have to think about it too before I can reply seriously... at the moment I don´t think this would make any sense tbh, but to see if it would technically be possible is interesting indeed !!

[Evil D]

I really think the button version of the compression lock is a natural evolution of the design and should be used on all CL knives going forward. This would fix my biggest problem with the CL (hot spots from the lock cutout) and I would be much more interested in buying models with this lock in the future.

[SpyderLine]

I really think the button version of the compression lock is a natural evolution of the design and should be used on all CL knives going forward. This would fix my biggest problem with the CL (hot spots from the lock cutout) and I would be much more interested in buying models with this lock in the future.

I'll second him on the button version of compression locks! It makes for a much more enjoyable experience and is a lot more lefty friendly.

[FK]

A button/comp lock is something I could get seriously into.
Tempted to sell off all of my PM2 & Para 3 comp lock collection,,,, just do no enjoy using them.

Regards,
FK

[Mushroom]

I've mentioned this on here in the past. A compression lock, in theory, could be accessed through both the top and bottom of the knife. So a compression lock could technically be designed to use in the same way as a liner lock (under the handle) but still function as a compression lock. (downward pressure) This would essentially disguise a compression lock as a liner lock. As you noted, this would also allow both locks to be fitted onto the same liner of one knife. Or just one lock with two separate unlocking tabs.

In my opinion, one of the biggest benefits of the compression lock is the safety mechanism built into the lock. The compression lock allows the user to move their fingers away from the path of the closing blade, removing the risk of the blade closing on their fingers. This is innately impossible with a liner lock and I cant think a reason to re-introduce that risk to a compression lock.

So having two tabs for a combo lock is technically possible but I have a hard time thinking of a practical reason for having both in one knife. Technically we could have a separate lock on each liner too but in my opinion, two locks that need to be separately actuated could lead to some unnecessary complications.

[Sharp Guy]

I don't see the need for two options. There's so many options out there already. Buy a knife with the lock you prefer and go on with life. I have no issue with the compression lock as it is. I know everyone's hands are different but I have no ergo issues with it either. Personally I see no need for a change

The button style comp lock is pretty cool and have no issue with it as long as you can't squeeze the button enough during use to unlock the knife.

[Wartstein]

I really think the button version of the compression lock is a natural evolution of the design and should be used on all CL knives going forward. This would fix my biggest problem with the CL (hot spots from the lock cutout) and I would be much more interested in buying models with this lock in the future.

True!

This would give those who need this the "fingers out of the blade path" thing, but would also be better to operate and yes, not be prone to potentially create that hotspot.
It would most likely be a comp.lock that I would prefer over the linerlock, differently to the current comp.lock version

[Wartstein]

.....

In my opinion, one of the biggest benefits of the compression lock is the safety mechanism built into the lock. The compression lock allows the user to move their fingers away from the path of the closing blade, removing the risk of the blade closing on their fingers. This is innately impossible with a liner lock and I cant think a reason to re-introduce that risk to a compression lock.
...

It is true that the comp.lock allows one method that keeps the fingers all the time out of the blade path, just as backlock and CBBL do.
I respect that many see the "fingers in the blade path" as a safety risk. I personally never could experience that.

See this two short clips I made recently about closing a choil-less (!) linerlock: Even there the edge does not hit my finger, when I let the blade drop onto there (which I normally don´t do anyway).
If the knife has a choil (Millie) the risk is even less...

https://streamable.com/nygr5m

https://streamable.com/8z3798

The comp.lock imho "pays" for that "safety mechanism" by being a bit LESS safe in other closing techniques than a linerlock and also in other ways (safety in hand while operation for example)

[kodai78]

If you haven’t handled a Smock with the button comp lock yet you might not get it. It’s the best implementation of the comp lock I have tried. (Off hand I think I have 3 others). I carry and use multiple lock types but the CBBL, and button comp lock are my preference. Not to say my favorite knives, that of course is another discussion. I have never had a lock of any kind fail while using a knife so I’m not moved by the “safety” arguments for or against lock types. I do prefer being able to close the open knife one handed and comp locks and CBBL’s work better for me in that situation. I have had a frame lock open in my pocket which was unnerving to say the least.

[JacksonKnives]

.....
The compression lock allows the user to move their fingers away from the path of the closing blade, removing the risk of the blade closing on their fingers. This is innately impossible with a liner lock and I cant think a reason to re-introduce that risk to a compression lock.
...

I respect that many see the "fingers in the blade path" as a safety risk. I personally never could experience that.
See this two short clips I made recently about closing a choil-less (!) linerlock...

The comp.lock imho "pays" for that "safety mechanism" by being a bit LESS safe in other closing techniques than a linerlock and also in other ways (safety in hand while operation for example)

...the CBBL, and button comp lock are my preference.

There are as many ergonomic preferences as there are hands, it seems.

We all need to be careful (like kodai) not to express our preferences as "safety facts." Spyderco does a good job, IMO, providing a wide array of locks with different designs that suit different preferences without taking cheap shots at any other designs for promotional purposes. Spyderco has an internal standard for what they consider safe, and the locks that have risen to the top of the pile are all truly excellent.

I prefer the Compression Lock on the PM2 as-is, and don't get enough benefit from the button to consider it worth the risk (however minimal) of accidental release with side pressure. I also feel the PM2 setup is the best for my thumb/finger length/grip position, though I haven't spent extensive time with a Smock to see if I could adjust to the rotation of the thumb position. (I also find the position of the BBL/CBBL awkward, YMMV.)

Likewise I think the Compression Lock is better for my hands/uses than the Walker or Reeve locks.

I don't feel any hotspots from the cutout when I'm using the PM2. So I'm quite satisfied with the current state of things.

If you could add the bottom tab to the PM2 in a way that really makes it just as functional as a Walker liner lock with that type of thumb motion, I wouldn't kick and scream, but I'd consider it a small liability with no benefit for my uses. I'm skeptical that you could make the liner stiff enough to release the lock as it's currently designed, though. The button on the Smock/patent design Compression Lock is close enough to the lockface that there's minimal flex across the lock leaf, moving the force to the other side of a full-width liner probably wouldn't work. Maybe you could use a rocker or something, but it seems to me it gets more and more sketchy as you try to fix the problems that arise.

[JacksonKnives]

(double post)

[Mushroom]

.....

In my opinion, one of the biggest benefits of the compression lock is the safety mechanism built into the lock. The compression lock allows the user to move their fingers away from the path of the closing blade, removing the risk of the blade closing on their fingers. This is innately impossible with a liner lock and I cant think a reason to re-introduce that risk to a compression lock.
...

It is true that the comp.lock allows one method that keeps the fingers all the time out of the blade path, just as backlock and CBBL do.
I respect that many see the "fingers in the blade path" as a safety risk.I personally never could experience that.

See this two short clips I made recently about closing a choil-less (!) linerlock: Even there the edge does not hit my finger, when I let the blade drop onto there (which I normally don´t do anyway).
If the knife has a choil (Millie) the risk is even less...

https://streamable.com/nygr5m

https://streamable.com/8z3798

The comp.lock imho "pays" for that "safety mechanism" by being a bit LESS safe in other closing techniques than a linerlock and also in other ways (safety in hand while operation for example)

It is literally impossible to operate a liner lock without that risk being present. Whether you consider it one or not, you experience that risk every time you unlock a liner lock.

Both .gifs you linked show your fingers in the path of the closing blade. Until you can show me how to operate a liner lock without putting my finger in the path of the closing blade, the compression lock is an improvement in safety because it removes the need for that action entirely and further protects your fingers from accidentally being cut by the closing blade.

That's not to say a compression lock makes the user prone from accidents but the risks are significantly decreased simply by having your fingers out of the blade path at all times.
 

If you haven’t handled a Smock with the button comp lock yet you might not get it. It’s the best implementation of the comp lock I have tried. (Off hand I think I have 3 others). I carry and use multiple lock types but the CBBL, and button comp lock are my preference. Not to say my favorite knives, that of course is another discussion. I have never had a lock of any kind fail while using a knife so I’m not moved by the “safety” arguments for or against lock types. I do prefer being able to close the open knife one handed and comp locks and CBBL’s work better for me in that situation. I have had a frame lock open in my pocket which was unnerving to say the least.

What I was saying has nothing to do with lock failure during use or lock strength. Quite the opposite actually.

Also, I'm not arguing for or against either lock. They're both perfectly safe to use and operate. One just has less inherent risk involved to operate, it's a fact.

---

I've been trying to think of a practical reason for having (a combo lock) two tabs in both positions to unlock the knife. One reason I keep coming back to is the one the OP presented and it is that it would offer a comfortable lock type for right hand users and left hand users. The intention being that the added "liner lock" tab could function well for left hand users. (or vise versa) It would kind of be like an asymmetrical ambidextrous lock type.

[Wartstein]

It is true that the comp.lock allows one method that keeps the fingers all the time out of the blade path, just as backlock and CBBL do.
I respect that many see the "fingers in the blade path" as a safety risk.I personally never could experience that.

See this two short clips I made recently about closing a choil-less (!) linerlock: Even there the edge does not hit my finger, when I let the blade drop onto there (which I normally don´t do anyway).
If the knife has a choil (Millie) the risk is even less...

https://streamable.com/nygr5m

https://streamable.com/8z3798

The comp.lock imho "pays" for that "safety mechanism" by being a bit LESS safe in other closing techniques than a linerlock and also in other ways (safety in hand while operation for example)

It is literally impossible to operate a liner lock without that risk being present. Whether you consider it one or not, you experience that risk every time you unlock a liner lock.

Both .gifs you linked show your fingers in the path of the closing blade. Until you can show me how to operate a liner lock without putting my finger in the path of the closing blade, the compression lock is an improvement in safety because it removes the need for that action entirely and further protects your fingers from accidentally being cut by the closing blade.

That's not to say a compression lock makes the user prone from accidents but the risks are significantly decreased simply by having your fingers out of the blade path at all times.
 

Yes, the fingers ARE in the path of the blade [EDIT: Actually just one single finger if one chooses so]- but that does not matter as long as the EDGE does not hit the fingers, and that never, ever happened to me personally. Not with choil-less linerlock folders like the Tenacious (see the clips), let alone with "choiled" ones like the Millie.

The ONE method a comp.lock (as well as backlock and CBBL) offers where the fingers can stay out of the bladepath happens to be the one that in my opinion contains a clearly greater safety risk than if the fingers WERE in the path: That is dropping the knife. Also not very likely, but more likely than hitting the finger with the edge when using another method imho.
Several accounts here where dropping the knife happened while using this comp.lock method (said it before: Lance Clinton even said that one of the reasons why the Siren has no comp.lock IS exactly that risk ).
The typical pinch grip that comes with this method is really not the most natural and safe way to hold a knife imho, and sometimes people even give it a little flick which is very similar to an almost "throwing" motion with this grip.
The risk gets greater of course with greasy, wet, cold... fingers or/and a narrower, more slick handle and smaller comp.lock tab.

Now: With all other methods the comp.lock is a bit less safe and natural than a linerlock in my experience.
With a linerlock no finger has to move to the top of the handle and "find" a clearly smaller cutout and tab (like it would be with a comp.lock) and with a linerlock, regardless if disengaged with thumb or index finger, the finger one uses automatically is at the front of the handle where choil or ricasso would hit it.

To be clear: I am NOT saying that the comp.lock would be "unsafe" or that the differences are immense here.
I am just saying that overall, considering all factors of "safety", the linerlock is not less safe than the comp.lock, in my experience even a bit safer.

/ Perhaps it is really time for a dedicated thread on this, with vids and all, since the topic pops up again and again and is actually an interesting one.

[Mushroom]

I don't know how else to say it but I really do not care about your personal circumstances while operating each lock. That's not what I'm talking about, please stop trying to make it personal.

I do not want to continue this conversation, even in it's own dedicated thread. I find it more annoying than interesting to be honest. Sorry.

[Wartstein]

I don't know how else to say it but I really do not care about your personal circumstances while operating each lock. That's not what I'm talking about, please stop trying to make it personal.

I do not want to continue this conversation, even in it's own dedicated thread. I find it more annoying than interesting to be honest. Sorry.

I'm perfectly fine with not continuing it, but I honestly can't see the difference between the way you and I discuss this???
Which "personal circumstances"??

YOU have your ("personal") experience and opinion - 100% similar to like I have mine..

You value the "fingers out of the blade path " aspect of safety a lot, I value more the aspect how firm a knife sits in the hand while operation. Both fine.

I am honestly a bit puzzled and curious: Where's the difference here?

If I use terms like "personally" or "in my opinion" a lot, then just cause I don't like the "this IS objectively safer, better...period" - guys, cause most things are of course subjective, and certainly which lock type one considers to be safer.

/ That being said: Though I am curious, I am still perfectly fine with if you don't want to reply. All good and not that important.

[Mushroom]

Nearly your whole post was explaining your personal preferences and circumstances regarding each lock. Which is fine, you're welcome to have those opinions and I'm not saying they're wrong, it's just not exactly what I was talking about.

The difference is, I'm talking about each lock and the objective differences between the two. They both present their own unique safety risks but the compression lock offers the user the ability to protect themselves from one risk that is unavoidable when operating a liner lock. Basically the definition of safety.

When I expressed my opinion in my initial post, it was in context to adding a tab to the bottom of a compression lock to create a "combo lock."

[Wartstein]

Nearly your whole post was explaining your personal preferences and circumstances regarding each lock. Which is fine, you're welcome to have those opinions and I'm not saying they're wrong, it's just not exactly what I was talking about.

The difference is, I'm talking about each lock and the objective differences between the two. They both present their own unique safety risks but the compression lock offers the user the ability to protect themselves from one risk that is unavoidable when operating a liner lock. Basically the definition of safety.

When I expressed my opinion in my initial post, it was in context to adding a tab to the bottom of a compression lock to create a "combo lock."

Thanks for taking the time to reply and explain, I really appreciate it!
I see now I took your initial comment in the wrong context, my apologies!

Just so you understand where I come from and why I find this topic "interesting":
Not in the first place "interesting" how different people operate these two different lock types and how "safe" they feel.
"Interesting" is, that the "safety advance" a comp.lock Military allegedly should have over a (!good, Spyderco-linerlock!) Military often is proposed as fact, when it is just opinion and very subjective. And that it gets so over-emphasized in my book.
(To be clear: We are NOT talking about some gas station linerlock here, but ab out a good, Spyderco linerlock on a knife WITH a choil!)

- Actually the Millie linerlock has a built in safety feature (too), at least as good as the comp,lock: In order to being even able to press the Millie linerlock tab with lets say the thumb, this thumb has to be in a position where it practically can´t be hit by the edge, but just by the choil, and by that all fingers are completely safe (what is important here: NOT that the fingers are not in the "blade" path, but not in the "edge" path!).
Additionally, while activating the linerlock, the knife remains in hand very secure
Sure, there is a very slight chance of user error, if one somehow akwardly puts the thumb very far back when activating the lock. Almost impossible though.

- Now go comp.lock: The built in safety feature here is to grip the knife in a pinch grip and move the fingers out of the edge path. Also very safe. A user error is very unlikely too, but perhaps (?) a bit more likely than with a linerlock: One could accidently not move all fingers out of the way, but leave one or more partly at the downside of the blade where the edge hits (while one almost can´t press the Millie linerlock tab without automatically having the thumb in the right place to NOT get hit by the edge).
Additionally, with this method the comp.lock (Millie) sits less safe in the hand than a linerlock Millie and is more likely to get dropped.

So: Both really safe, unless one makes a severe error... can´t see the huge difference here, can´t see why a comp.lock Millie should be objectively safer than a linerlock Millie (THIS is subjective again of course, but I think I gave proper reasonig above)

Just anecdotal, but I´ve read several post here where people dropped their comp.lock knives while using the pinch grip method, but none where one would have cut themselves with a Millie while closing it one handed..

Now lets leave it here! Shouldn´t have posted even this I guess, but I just wanted you to know: I am not just "talking", but think I do have to some more or less "objective" or at least objectively checkable points too.

Thanks again for the discussion!

[Doc Dan]

I can't see a need. I understand the desire, but it brings problems and complexity that do not currently exist.

[JakeXman]

To be honest I can’t imagine a need for a combo lock or even a practical implementation of it. However, I think it’s fun to imagine all the engineering that would go into it. Maybe it’s completely impractical and expensive, but is it theoretically possible?