I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

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Matus
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#21

Post by Matus »

Araignee wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:55 pm
FRN having an inferior grip to G10 is also my experience, but not for the exact same reason.

On FRN my fingers are gliding because, due to the inter-spaced spots, there's not enough surface to provide adherence (except on the central logo since it's plain). Whilst with G10, the entire surface is uniform, hence provide an opportunity for the moisture on the skin to act as a glue between the fingers and the scales.
I would rather see it as a interesting difference between the two materials. The FRN can be (depending on the structure) offering considerable amount of grip when needed (I found the P3 LW not lacking in surface structure), or being more decent and smooth like say on the Urban (I must admit that I did not expect to like the FRN on the Urban as much as I actually do).

If someone would come up with 3D shaped G10 while retaining non-polished / non-smoothed structure it would be definitely very interesting on more serious use oriented knives. I have not seen such handles/scales yet.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#22

Post by Araignee »

Matus wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:43 pm
If someone would come up with 3D shaped G10 while retaining non-polished / non-smoothed structure it would be definitely very interesting on more serious use oriented knives. I have not seen such handles/scales yet.
By "3D shaped" you mean motifs as on the FRN scales, or rather something tamer like the Chaparral's G10/CF scales ?
If that's the latter, I could see how grippier such scales would be with an unpolished material.

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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#23

Post by Matus »

Araignee wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:02 pm

By "3D shaped" you mean motifs as on the FRN scales, or rather something tamer like the Chaparral's G10/CF scales ?
If that's the latter, I could see how grippier such scales would be with an unpolished material.

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3D shaped for me means handle scales that are not 90% flat, but actually contoured in some fashion to fit human hand. Some custom scales offer that. It would be rather easily doable with FRN as it is molded to shape, it is much harded to do with other materials as one needs to use CNC to shape the scales (what of course is expensive). Outside the world of the pocket knives, most knives actually don't have flat scales ...
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#24

Post by Xformer »

Matus wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:13 pm
Araignee wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:02 pm

By "3D shaped" you mean motifs as on the FRN scales, or rather something tamer like the Chaparral's G10/CF scales ?
If that's the latter, I could see how grippier such scales would be with an unpolished material.

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Photo credit : KnivesShipFree
3D shaped for me means handle scales that are not 90% flat, but actually contoured in some fashion to fit human hand. Some custom scales offer that. It would be rather easily doable with FRN as it is molded to shape, it is much harded to do with other materials as one needs to use CNC to shape the scales (what of course is expensive). Outside the world of the pocket knives, most knives actually don't have flat scales ...
Benchmade G10 is like that. My 940 is very well contoured. It's not as grippy as Spyderco G10 though, it's almost smooth to a dangerous level.

Spyderco FRN is that good. Kudos to them, they manage to make plastic feels very good.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#25

Post by Matus »

That would be one weird slogan …”we have been making plastics feel good since 1978” … :winking-tongue
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#26

Post by Wartstein »

Chapp wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:36 am
Wartstein wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:28 am
Sorry to say, but I really hope they WILL make a PM2 LW linerless... I mean, being light is the main point of "lightweight".

I have a Para 3 LW to try it out right now.
And yes, the FRN somehow feels a bit more "plasticy" than on my Seki and even other Golden FRNs indeed. Does not bother me though, and putting liners beneath that FRN would not change much imho...

Perhaps you could try and chamfer the handle of a G10 PM2 diy? Just a thought..
From what I understand, there are two brands of those Spyderco models when it comes to those FRN variations :

- The FRN models, like the Chaparral FRN. The handles are FRN, but it keeps it liners.
- The Lightweight (LW) models, where the main purpose is being as lightweight as possible, thus losing the liners, like the Native 5 FRN or the PM3 LW.

In short, I hope that upcoming PM2 is a PM2 FRN and not a PM2 LW.

About the diy chamfering, I'd butcher it 100% and that would only solve one problem I have with the current model. :-||
You are right of course!

Though in my view:

- With the Chaparral FRN they did not have the main goal to make it "lightweight", but to display just another scale material - like the Chap was intended to do as a model (showcase various handle materials)
- The Seki FRN "lightweight" models are actually not lightweight versions of already existing "heavier" (G10...) models, but designed from the get go to be pretty lightweight, despite having liners. So the "main" versions of Seki models (Endura, Delica..) come in FRN, as much as the "main" versions of many Golden models come in G10 (PM2, Millie...)
The "lightweight" versions of the Seki models are catually the Seki Salts (exceptions possible, see DFly)

I am sorry for you (honestly!) but I think being FRN (chamfered) AND clearly lighter than the current PM2 cause it is linerless will make a PM2 LW attractive to more people than "just" FRN (plus liners) and an only minimal weight savings would be (for me this is the case for sure)

Again: Your say that you don´t like the feeling of the Para 3 FRN in hand ("cheap...") - do you think this would change just because there would be liners beneath that (for you) "cheap" feeling FRN?

As said: I can understand what you mean: The Para 3 LW somehow does feel a bit more "plasticy", "brittle" than the Seki FRN to me too. This does not bother me at all though cause it has no functional implication.
Actually I would find the Para 3 pretty cool.... if it was larger :beaming-face - as it is, the ergos are not too great for bigger hands and I just can´t really warm up to the comp.lock, but a PM2 LW would/will be really nice imho...
Last edited by Wartstein on Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#27

Post by kennethsime »

Evil D wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:39 am
I'm betting it'll have only enough liner for the lock itself and nothing more.
This is what I'm hoping, just like the P3LW.
Simplify, and add lightness.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.

Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#28

Post by kobold »

I played with the ZDP Stretch 2 today and I like the robustness provided by the steel liners.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#29

Post by Chuck James »

Chapp wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:20 am
Like many of you here, I've read that Spyderco (and Eric in particular) is working hard on a FRN/Lightweight version of the PM2.

I've always liked the PM2, it's the knife I take to work daily, but I still have my gripes with it :

- The handle isn't chamfered, which makes it blockier than the Military or the Delica.
- The G10 scratches a lot.
- The clip is shiny and bulky.

All those gripes could potentially be solved with a FRN/Lightweight model.

I'll say it straight : Spyderco FRN is the best in the market. Usually I tend to avoid plastic in my life as much as I can, but Spyderco FRN is clearly in a league of its own and one of the exception I make. The texture is grippy, the material is bulletproof and the molding is close to perfect, which allows for great ergos. Kudos to Spyderco on that particular point. Add to that a potential wire-clip and most of my gripes with the current PM2 would be solved.

There's just one problem : I fear the upcoming PM2 would lose the liners and just be a bigger PM3, which to me would be a big disappointment...

I've always thought going the linerless route was for the best... up until I bought a PM3 Lightweight. I really thought it would be a knife for me, correcting all my gripes with the PM2. The PM3 LW had everything : FRN handles that are perfectly molded, a wire-clip, it's linerless, it's more compact... Unfortunately, I had to resell it because of my disappointment with it. It being linerless made it feel "cheap" to me, something I've rarely felt from a Spyderco knife. I couldn't shake the feeling even after weeks of daily use. It felt hollows and just... wrong. It's the same feeling I got from the Salt 2, which is basically a linerless Delica.

While I'm waiting for that upcoming model very hard, I also fear it will lose the liners and give me that same feeling of cheapness and that wrong feeling that made me sell both my PM3 LW and my Salt 2.

It's a way of drawing Sal and Spyderco attention on this. I'm just one voice among many, but I hope that I'll be heard. I really, really hope that the PM2 Eric is working on is a FRN model (with liners) and not a linerless LW model.

Edit : I forgot to mention one other point : the linerless compression lock "sounds" less satisfying than the compression lock with liners. Something to do with acoustic, but it's noticeable to me.
So...with out the steel liners...FRN is just another cheap plastic handle....Right???
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#30

Post by zuludelta »

I'm a big fan of certain Lightweight models such as the Native 5 Lightweight, the Sage 5 Lightweight, and the Salt 2 (which is basically a rustproof Delica 4 Lightweight) & I really thought I would like the Para 3 Lightweight (I like the G10 version, though not as much as the PM2). However, the P3LW just didn't click for me, not for any single reason I can pinpoint, but the overall package just didn't feel right in my hand.

I've tried to give it a chance to grow on me, too... I re-bought the knife after gifting away my first P3LW but I ended up gifting away the second one as well after several months. I think some vague sensory quality having to do with texture, balance & heft is lost in the translation of the Para 3 to the Lightweight format, but I also think that partially explains why the P3LW seems to appeal to people who aren't particularly fans of the G10 model. I wonder if this will turn out to be the case with the PM2LW. (I have similar feelings regarding the Manix 2 in G10 vis à vis the Manix 2 Lightweight—I just prefer how the former feels and handles).

All that said, a PM2LW will be more affordable than the original, and that can only be a good thing as it makes the basic design more accessible to a wider range of users.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#31

Post by Wartstein »

zuludelta wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:26 pm
....
All that said, a PM2LW will be more affordable than the original, and that can only be a good thing as it makes the basic design more accessible to a wider range of users.
Very true!

As soon as the design work is done and the molds are made (and the knife sells well of course) FRN Spydies are just more affordable than their G10 versions.
Being inerless should make them even more cost efficient in production (and one still gets the normally more advanced ergos of FRN).

And "real" lighweight is just nice to have sometimes. Be it in "floppier", lighter garment pockets while being active, be it when shaving weight for mountaineering or multiday-hiking and so on.

Now if I go by the Para 3, a linerless FRN PM2 will still not be extremely light anyway (The Para 3 LW - linerless - is still a tad heavier than the similarly sized LINERED Delica).
I think in order to really distinguish a PM2 LW from the G10 version it just has to be linerless.

And having already done the brainwork on how to design an (almost) linerless comp.lock knife, it would be weird if Spyderco did not make further use of that "technology" (which, as far as I know, prooves to be perfect and very durable in the Para 3 LW).

Only con I personally see with linerless FRN: Much more difficult to get/make functionally decent custom scales.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#32

Post by Wartstein »

Added to my post above:

Thinking of my Tenacious "lightweight" (featuring full liners):
The FRN does make it lighter than the G10 version, but not by very much.
If this thing came as an almost "linerless linerlock" (see here also viewtopic.php?t=90301#p1544679) - just as much liner as technically necessary, see Millie- and by that came down to lets say Manix 2 LW weight: It would be my most carried EDC folder for sure.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#33

Post by araneae »

Skip the liners, but please make the smooth area at the edge less smooth. It's been brought up before, but the smooth parts of the Para 3 FRN are noticeably smoother than other models. A little orange peel texture would fix that or playing with the FRN composition.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#34

Post by GarageBoy »

Para 3 LW is definitely lightweight, but boy is it kinda slippery when opening and closing.

I don't care about it not feeling expensive, but those nicely rounded corners don't make it easy to manipulate. Much prefer the Seki/native and manix LW feel
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#35

Post by Xformer »

Wartstein wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:31 pm
Chapp wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:36 am
Wartstein wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:28 am
Sorry to say, but I really hope they WILL make a PM2 LW linerless... I mean, being light is the main point of "lightweight".

I have a Para 3 LW to try it out right now.
And yes, the FRN somehow feels a bit more "plasticy" than on my Seki and even other Golden FRNs indeed. Does not bother me though, and putting liners beneath that FRN would not change much imho...

Perhaps you could try and chamfer the handle of a G10 PM2 diy? Just a thought..
From what I understand, there are two brands of those Spyderco models when it comes to those FRN variations :

- The FRN models, like the Chaparral FRN. The handles are FRN, but it keeps it liners.
- The Lightweight (LW) models, where the main purpose is being as lightweight as possible, thus losing the liners, like the Native 5 FRN or the PM3 LW.

In short, I hope that upcoming PM2 is a PM2 FRN and not a PM2 LW.

About the diy chamfering, I'd butcher it 100% and that would only solve one problem I have with the current model. :-||
Again: Your say that you don´t like the feeling of the Para 3 FRN in hand ("cheap...") - do you think this would change just because there would be liners beneath that (for you) "cheap" feeling FRN?
Yes, I don't have any problems with the Delica. It's an FRN knife, but the liners go a long way in making it feels substantial.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#36

Post by anycal »

I too hope the liners stay. Or at least partial liners. I have no interest in a FRN PM2 based on the Para 3 LW. The potential weight saving doesn't do anything for me on this knife.

My requirements,
- at least partial liners. The pivot and stop pin both have to be in a liner
- PB washers on both sides
- chamfering like that of the Para 3 LW, not the Manix LW or Native LW

I honestly don't see myself getting one without these things. And I am a huge fan of the PM2.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#37

Post by nerdlock »

Liners please.

If the Sage 5 LW can have liners, so can all the possible future LW variants from Golden.

The Para3 LW would have been the perfect LW EDC knife for me if only it had liners on both sides and full washers. The centering on all of my 5 (edit: 6 including the BHQ M4 mint green) Sprints and Exclusives are quite horrible and it's actually affecting the smoothness of the deployment of one already (the Para3 LW Spy27)
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#38

Post by twinboysdad »

Liners or pass for me. Delica has liners and otherwise in FFG it would be delicate. The liners make that knife. Please keep liners and simply add sculpted FRN to the existing PM2
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#39

Post by Wright.88 »

Please no liners. The Para 3 LW is so appealing to me because of how lightweight it is. I've owned several and while none have had perfect centering, none have affected functionality, so it hasn't bothered me at all. A Para 2 FRN just doesn't really appeal to me if it has liners. It won't be much lighter than the G10 version.

I honestly don't see the benefit of liners for an FRN PM2 that's main appeal to most people is to be lighter than the G10 version. Unless you're prying with your knife it should be plenty strong for any cutting job you would attempt with a folder.
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Re: I really hope Spyderco is keeping the liners for the upcoming FRN/LW PM2.

#40

Post by Wartstein »

twinboysdad wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:31 pm
Liners or pass for me. Delica has liners and otherwise in FFG it would be delicate. The liners make that knife. Please keep liners and simply add sculpted FRN to the existing PM2
The Delica has liners indeed and WITH this liners is still a tad lighter than the (practically linerless) Para 3.
That means: The Para - series features a bit heavier knives - in order to get in the same ballpark as the linered Endura family knives concerning weight, the Para knives have to be linerless...

I really think the PM2 LW should be at least somewhat lightweight. Just as the Para 3 is just somewhat, but not really lightweight, and this is only possible when giving it and a PM2 LW a linerless construction...
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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