Mid-sized Native?

[kennethsime]

I'm open to loving this, because I do really like the Native. However, I think I'm more excited by a LW Shaman - the contoured scales and spear point blade do it for me.

[kobold]

The Native 5 is the mid-sized Native. :)

At what point does adding half an inch to a model get redundant? In my unpopular opinion, I do not think the Native needs a variant in every size range from 2.5" up to 4".

I would rather see Spyderco invest their time and money into something else than yet another size variation of the Native. Spyderco offers plenty of alternatives as is.

The Delica to Police line (Delica 2.87, Endela 3,41, Endura 3.75, Police 4.39 inches) shows there is demand in all sizes.

The Native line could do well with the same progression.

I am not sure how many alternatives are offered among the current production models for a no hump, backlock folder, but perhaps not too many and not as popular as the Natives?

[waylander]

I joined the forum partly to discuss this also. I love my Native 5, but my hands are average width and the handle is barely long enough for me. I think people are missing out. I’ve seen a YouTuber not recommend it due to the shorter size. Then people in the comments immediately swear it off before even trying it. SMH

I love the Native Chief but it’s just too large for some people. Either for preference or legal issues with the blade length. A model right between the Native Chief and Native 5 would be the perfect gateway knife to pull people in. The Goldilocks knife as it were.

As far as Spyderco offering several alternatives, one could argue the point. Plenty of ambidextrous and lefties have fewer options. Some people also love the back lock and don’t much care for the compression lock. Who doesn’t love more options? Especially Spyderco options!

My Manix 2 is great but there’s the width issue with some pockets. While we’re at it, can we also discuss a slimmer Manix 2?

[Mushroom]

The Native 5 is the mid-sized Native. :)

At what point does adding half an inch to a model get redundant? In my unpopular opinion, I do not think the Native needs a variant in every size range from 2.5" up to 4".

I would rather see Spyderco invest their time and money into something else than yet another size variation of the Native. Spyderco offers plenty of alternatives as is.

The Delica to Police line (Delica 2.87, Endela 3,41, Endura 3.75, Police 4.39 inches) shows there is demand in all sizes.

The Native line could do well with the same progression.

I am not sure how many alternatives are offered among the current production models for a no hump, backlock folder, but perhaps not too many and not as popular as the Natives?

The Police is not part of the Delica family and I never said there wasn't demand for a knife in the size the OP requested. When considering a model like the PM2, I think there is a lot of demand for knives that size. I just think adding a Native in that size is redundant with what else is currently available in their catalog. I'm not sure how many alternatives Spyderco offers exactly but there are many. They don't all have a backlock and no hump but we can't always get exactly what we want.

Before I got seriously into collecting Spyderco knives, I wanted a 2.5 inch knife to carry in Boston legally. The Native 5 was released, and I knew I wanted it but it was 3" and I couldn't carry it legally. Since I wanted a Spyderco, I looked into their alternative 2.5" options and found the Cat. It was far from exactly what I wanted but I bought it anyway, carried it extensively, and the Cat is now one of my favorite models of all time!

The Endura has a 3.75" blade. That would slot it in between the Chief and this proposed model. The Endura is a popular model, so there must be demand for knives that size. So after this 3.5 inch Native, should Spyderco make a 3.75" Native model too because the Endura is popular? At what point does this get redundant?

Now I'm actually kind of curious what "tasks" the Chief is a little too long for? Is half an inch less blade really going to make a difference during those "tasks?"

[Wartstein]

.....

The Delica to Police line (Delica 2.87, Endela 3,41, Endura 3.75, Police 4.39 inches) shows there is demand in all sizes.

The Native line could do well with the same progression.

I am not sure how many alternatives are offered among the current production models for a no hump, backlock folder, but perhaps not too many and not as popular as the Natives?

The Police is not part of the Delica family and I never said there wasn't demand for a knife in the size the OP requested. When considering a model like the PM2, I think there is a lot of demand for knives that size. I just think adding a Native in that size is redundant with what else is currently available in their catalog. I'm not sure how many alternatives Spyderco offers exactly but there are many. They don't all have a backlock and no hump but we can't always get exactly what we want.

Before I got seriously into collecting Spyderco knives, I wanted a 2.5 inch knife to carry in Boston legally. The Native 5 was released, and I knew I wanted it but it was 3" and I couldn't carry it legally. Since I wanted a Spyderco, I looked into their alternative 2.5" options and found the Cat. It was far from exactly what I wanted but I bought it anyway, carried it extensively, and the Cat is now one of my favorite models of all time!

The Endura has a 3.75" blade. That would slot it in between the Chief and this proposed model. The Endura is a popular model, so there must be demand for knives that size. So after this 3.5 inch Native, should Spyderco make a 3.75" Native model too because the Endura is popular? At what point does this get redundant?

Now I'm actually kind of curious what "tasks" the Chief is a little too long for? Is half an inch less blade really going to make a difference during those "tasks?"

Well, this is actually an interesting discussion that touches more points than just "should there be a mid sized Native":

One being what you mentioned yourself: "At what point does this get redundant"?
Taking an Endela/PM2/Manix (not Endura!) sized "Native XL" as an example - would it be redundant in the context of this "nerdy" forum? Would it be more redundant than lets say creating a Para 3 when there already is the whole Sage line (including a comp.lock version), the Delica, the Native 5, the Salts, the Chap and so on? Couldn´t one say about the PM2 what you said about the Chief "what tasks is the PM2 too long for? Is half an inch blade really going to make a difference"? So, in other words: Why a Para 3? I personally would have predicted this model has to fail, since it is nice, but for me just no match for those Delicas, Natives, Chaps, since it carries over to many features that work in the PM2 but not in the Para 3 - And BOY, would I have been wrong! I personally don´t fully get it, but the Para 3 is a mega-huge success obviously and so many are glad it exists.

Next being "which more or less tiny details count and which do not? And who decides this?" -
Sure, I certainly can make a both a Native 5 and a Chief work for probably any task a "mid sized Native " can do... but if we start to think like this, this whole forum looses most of its "sense"... because the same is true for Delica and Endura vs Endela; for Millie and Para 3 vs PM2; or, if we go beyond size: Why does someone want a knife in lets say XHP and not "boring" S30V, when the latter can do the job perfectly well? Why even want a Manix when a PM2 can do the job realistically speaking pretty much in the same way?
Heck, one could even say "why a Native 5 when there is a Lil Native, just half an inch shorter in blade length"

Don´t get me wrong, you have valid points that I somehow even share to some degree and there is no right or wrong here!

I still think the Native differs enough in design (one of the coolest looking Spydies imho), function (special, refined backlock for example) and ergos (no ramp on the spine makes a real difference, no matter if people perceive this a s pro or con, not only for the slimmer carry') that a Native model in the perhaps most popular size category (perhaps! I don´t know) would make sense and many really happy.

[kobold]

The Native 5 is the mid-sized Native. :)

At what point does adding half an inch to a model get redundant? In my unpopular opinion, I do not think the Native needs a variant in every size range from 2.5" up to 4".

I would rather see Spyderco invest their time and money into something else than yet another size variation of the Native. Spyderco offers plenty of alternatives as is.

The Delica to Police line (Delica 2.87, Endela 3,41, Endura 3.75, Police 4.39 inches) shows there is demand in all sizes.

The Native line could do well with the same progression.

I am not sure how many alternatives are offered among the current production models for a no hump, backlock folder, but perhaps not too many and not as popular as the Natives?

The Police is not part of the Delica family and I never said there wasn't demand for a knife in the size the OP requested. When considering a model like the PM2, I think there is a lot of demand for knives that size. I just think adding a Native in that size is redundant with what else is currently available in their catalog. I'm not sure how many alternatives Spyderco offers exactly but there are many. They don't all have a backlock and no hump but we can't always get exactly what we want.

Before I got seriously into collecting Spyderco knives, I wanted a 2.5 inch knife to carry in Boston legally. The Native 5 was released, and I knew I wanted it but it was 3" and I couldn't carry it legally. Since I wanted a Spyderco, I looked into their alternative 2.5" options and found the Cat. It was far from exactly what I wanted but I bought it anyway, carried it extensively, and the Cat is now one of my favorite models of all time!

The Endura has a 3.75" blade. That would slot it in between the Chief and this proposed model. The Endura is a popular model, so there must be demand for knives that size. So after this 3.5 inch Native, should Spyderco make a 3.75" Native model too because the Endura is popular? At what point does this get redundant?

Now I'm actually kind of curious what "tasks" the Chief is a little too long for? Is half an inch less blade really going to make a difference during those "tasks?"

The point is, since there are no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size, the requested Native variant is clearly not redundant.

[Mushroom]

.....

The Delica to Police line (Delica 2.87, Endela 3,41, Endura 3.75, Police 4.39 inches) shows there is demand in all sizes.

The Native line could do well with the same progression.

I am not sure how many alternatives are offered among the current production models for a no hump, backlock folder, but perhaps not too many and not as popular as the Natives?

The Police is not part of the Delica family and I never said there wasn't demand for a knife in the size the OP requested. When considering a model like the PM2, I think there is a lot of demand for knives that size. I just think adding a Native in that size is redundant with what else is currently available in their catalog. I'm not sure how many alternatives Spyderco offers exactly but there are many. They don't all have a backlock and no hump but we can't always get exactly what we want.

Before I got seriously into collecting Spyderco knives, I wanted a 2.5 inch knife to carry in Boston legally. The Native 5 was released, and I knew I wanted it but it was 3" and I couldn't carry it legally. Since I wanted a Spyderco, I looked into their alternative 2.5" options and found the Cat. It was far from exactly what I wanted but I bought it anyway, carried it extensively, and the Cat is now one of my favorite models of all time!

The Endura has a 3.75" blade. That would slot it in between the Chief and this proposed model. The Endura is a popular model, so there must be demand for knives that size. So after this 3.5 inch Native, should Spyderco make a 3.75" Native model too because the Endura is popular? At what point does this get redundant?

Now I'm actually kind of curious what "tasks" the Chief is a little too long for? Is half an inch less blade really going to make a difference during those "tasks?"

Well, this is actually an interesting discussion that touches more points than just "should there be a mid sized Native":

One being what you mentioned yourself: "At what point does this get redundant"?
Taking an Endela/PM2/Manix (not Endura!) sized "Native XL" as an example - would it be redundant in the context of this "nerdy" forum? Would it be more redundant than lets say creating a Para 3 when there already is the whole Sage line (including a comp.lock version), the Delica, the Native 5, the Salts, the Chap and so on? Couldn´t one say about the PM2 what you said about the Chief "what tasks is the PM2 too long for? Is half an inch blade really going to make a difference"? So, in other words: Why a Para 3? I personally would have predicted this model has to fail, since it is nice, but for me just no match for those Delicas, Natives, Chaps, since it carries over to many features that work in the PM2 but not in the Para 3 - And BOY, would I have been wrong! I personally don´t fully get it, but the Para 3 is a mega-huge success obviously and so many are glad it exists.

Next being "which more or less tiny details count and which do not? And who decides this?" -
Sure, I certainly can make a both a Native 5 and a Chief work for probably any task a "mid sized Native " can do... but if we start to think like this, this whole forum looses most of its "sense"... because the same is true for Delica and Endura vs Endela; for Millie and Para 3 vs PM2; or, if we go beyond size: Why does someone want a knife in lets say XHP and not "boring" S30V, when the latter can do the job perfectly well? Why even want a Manix when a PM2 can do the job realistically speaking pretty much in the same way?
Heck, one could even say "why a Native 5 when there is a Lil Native, just half an inch shorter in blade length"

Don´t get me wrong, you have valid points that I somehow even share to some degree and there is no right or wrong here!

I still think the Native differs enough in design (one of the coolest looking Spydies imho), function (special, refined backlock for example) and ergos (no ramp on the spine makes a real difference, no matter if people perceive this a s pro or con, not only for the slimmer carry') that a Native model in the perhaps most popular size category (perhaps! I don´t know) would make sense and many really happy.

I guess a 3.5" Native would not be redundant in the context of this forum. I understand the points your making and in all honesty I could see the model actually existing in the future given the popularity of the 3.5" size range.

The OP claimed the Chief is a "little long for many tasks" and wants this 3.5" Native for that reason, which is why I posed those questions.

Also, I agree that the Native is one of the coolest looking Spydies!

[Mushroom]

The Native 5 is the mid-sized Native. :)

At what point does adding half an inch to a model get redundant? In my unpopular opinion, I do not think the Native needs a variant in every size range from 2.5" up to 4".

I would rather see Spyderco invest their time and money into something else than yet another size variation of the Native. Spyderco offers plenty of alternatives as is.

The Delica to Police line (Delica 2.87, Endela 3,41, Endura 3.75, Police 4.39 inches) shows there is demand in all sizes.

The Native line could do well with the same progression.

I am not sure how many alternatives are offered among the current production models for a no hump, backlock folder, but perhaps not too many and not as popular as the Natives?

The Police is not part of the Delica family and I never said there wasn't demand for a knife in the size the OP requested. When considering a model like the PM2, I think there is a lot of demand for knives that size. I just think adding a Native in that size is redundant with what else is currently available in their catalog. I'm not sure how many alternatives Spyderco offers exactly but there are many. They don't all have a backlock and no hump but we can't always get exactly what we want.

Before I got seriously into collecting Spyderco knives, I wanted a 2.5 inch knife to carry in Boston legally. The Native 5 was released, and I knew I wanted it but it was 3" and I couldn't carry it legally. Since I wanted a Spyderco, I looked into their alternative 2.5" options and found the Cat. It was far from exactly what I wanted but I bought it anyway, carried it extensively, and the Cat is now one of my favorite models of all time!

The Endura has a 3.75" blade. That would slot it in between the Chief and this proposed model. The Endura is a popular model, so there must be demand for knives that size. So after this 3.5 inch Native, should Spyderco make a 3.75" Native model too because the Endura is popular? At what point does this get redundant?

Now I'm actually kind of curious what "tasks" the Chief is a little too long for? Is half an inch less blade really going to make a difference during those "tasks?"

The point is, since there are no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size, the requested Native variant is clearly not redundant.

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

[kobold]

The Delica to Police line (Delica 2.87, Endela 3,41, Endura 3.75, Police 4.39 inches) shows there is demand in all sizes.

The Native line could do well with the same progression.

I am not sure how many alternatives are offered among the current production models for a no hump, backlock folder, but perhaps not too many and not as popular as the Natives?

The Endura is a popular model, so there must be demand for knives that size. So after this 3.5 inch Native, should Spyderco make a 3.75" Native model too because the Endura is popular? At what point does this get redundant?

The point is, since there are no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size, the requested Native variant is clearly not redundant.

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

Close, but sadly, no choil.

[ugaarguy]

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

With a tiny grip area for the size of the handle, and a huge finger guard that keeps your hand far back from the edge.

[Mushroom]

The Endura is a popular model, so there must be demand for knives that size. So after this 3.5 inch Native, should Spyderco make a 3.75" Native model too because the Endura is popular? At what point does this get redundant?

The point is, since there are no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size, the requested Native variant is clearly not redundant.

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

Close, but sadly, no choil.

Right... I had a feeling you'd say that.

Like I said before, it's an alternative option, it's not going to be exactly like a Native.
 
 

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

With a tiny grip area for the size of the handle, and a huge finger guard that keeps your hand far back from the edge.

Ok... ? Your point?

He said there were "no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size." Well, contrary to that statement, the Siren is exactly that.

[ChrisinHove]

I love the Native & the Chief, so see no reason why I wouldn’t love something in between, as well. Lil’ Chief in Magnacut? Yes, please!

The Lil Native seems too small for my hands, with the comp lock, at least.

[bearfacedkiller]

The point is, since there are no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size, the requested Native variant is clearly not redundant.

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

Close, but sadly, no choil.

Right... I had a feeling you'd say that.

Like I said before, it's an alternative option, it's not going to be exactly like a Native.
 
 

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

With a tiny grip area for the size of the handle, and a huge finger guard that keeps your hand far back from the edge.

Ok... ? Your point?

He said there were "no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size." Well, contrary to that statement, the Siren is exactly that.

No company seems to understand market saturation like Spyderco. For many many years I have tried to figure out how they do it. They try to make something for everybody which seems like a recipe for disaster in regards to market saturation as well as a confusing product line. Yet here they are with many overlapping models as well as bazillion variations of their popular models in the form of sprints and exclusives and they still cannot keep up with demand. I’ll leave these kinds of business decisions up to them, they seem to have it figured out.

If someone doesn’t want to buy a 3.5 inch native then they shouldn’t buy one. With a product line as massive as Spyderco’s we all have to pick and choose because we cannot buy them all. I’m still baffled that we “need” a Lil’ Native at all, let alone one in three different locks. Up till now I have kept that opinion to myself however.

Spyderco clearly intended to make a 3.5 inch Native. That is how we got the Shaman. In the process it morphed into a knife that deviated from a true native so I think a true 3.5 inch Native is long over due. Like 20+ years over due.

[kobold]

Quantity, quality and variety. Many knife companies can do one or two of these only.
But Spyderco seems to be good at balancing all three.
In order to maintain variety, introducing new models is inevitable and not many product lines have the provenance of the Native.
A mid sized Native, priced accordingly (between the Native and the Chief, and so less than the Shaman) should be a hit.

[Mushroom]

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

Close, but sadly, no choil.

Right... I had a feeling you'd say that.

Like I said before, it's an alternative option, it's not going to be exactly like a Native.
 
 

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

With a tiny grip area for the size of the handle, and a huge finger guard that keeps your hand far back from the edge.

Ok... ? Your point?

He said there were "no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size." Well, contrary to that statement, the Siren is exactly that.

No company seems to understand market saturation like Spyderco. For many many years I have tried to figure out how they do it. They try to make something for everybody which seems like a recipe for disaster in regards to market saturation as well as a confusing product line. Yet here they are with many overlapping models as well as bazillion variations of their popular models in the form of sprints and exclusives and they still cannot keep up with demand. I’ll leave these kinds of business decisions up to them, they seem to have it figured out.

If someone doesn’t want to buy a 3.5 inch native then they shouldn’t buy one. With a product line as massive as Spyderco’s we all have to pick and choose because we cannot buy them all. I’m still baffled that we “need” a Lil’ Native at all, let alone one in three different locks. Up till now I have kept that opinion to myself however.

When considering the diversity of their catalog and variety they offer, I really shouldn't call anything new redundant. That is my mistake. They understand their own market far better than I could ever hope to.

There has to be some give and take somewhere though. Discontinued models are inevitable but they're typically being replaced with something new. I would personally rather see something thats really new instead of another rehash of an established model.

Just to play devils advocate little bit, I would pose the question: Is part of having trouble keeping up with demand because of their extensive catalog? Could having a bazillion variations of their popular models be a contributing factor to not being able to keep up with demand? (This is probably impossible to gauge right now given the current global "situation")

Also, I understand your point when comparing it to a Lil Native. We never really "needed" the Lil Native but I sure am glad they offer it now! Although, I have a feeling I would agree with your opinion regarding three lock types.



Should I take this as my green light to request a Lil Para? (2.5" Blade)

[kobold]

The point is, since there are no humpless, back-locks in this (PM2-ish) size, the requested Native variant is clearly not redundant.

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

Close, but sadly, no choil.

Right... I had a feeling you'd say that.

Like I said before, it's an alternative option, it's not going to be exactly like a Native.

True, there is the Siren, which is not a lot and which is too specialized to be a real popular EDC worthy option comparable to the Native or the PM2, which is what we are after here. It is not known how long the Siren will even stay in production.

[bearfacedkiller]

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

Close, but sadly, no choil.

Right... I had a feeling you'd say that.

Like I said before, it's an alternative option, it's not going to be exactly like a Native.

True, there is the Siren, which is not a lot and which is too specialized to be a real popular EDC worthy option comparable to the Native or the PM2, which is what we are after here. It is not known how long the Siren will even stay in production.

The siren isn’t an overly specialized knife and would be great for general edc. The problem is that many have serious lock issues which we are still waiting to hear more about. It is very high on my list but I have to wait until I know I will get a good one. I hope we see more.

[Mushroom]

The Siren is a backlock with no hump in the PM2-ish size.

Close, but sadly, no choil.

Right... I had a feeling you'd say that.

Like I said before, it's an alternative option, it's not going to be exactly like a Native.

True, there is the Siren, which is not a lot and which is too specialized to be a real popular EDC worthy option comparable to the Native or the PM2, which is what we are after here. It is not known how long the Siren will even stay in production.

The Siren is only one of multiple similar alternatives from Spyderco. As I said though, they won't be exact matches and there will differences between them and a Native. I'm not sure how you determined the Siren to be too specialized as a "real popular EDC worthy option" but thats entirely subjective.

I would suggest the Emphasis but I have a feeling I already know the reasons why that won't work either.

[kobold]

Close, but sadly, no choil.

Right... I had a feeling you'd say that.

Like I said before, it's an alternative option, it's not going to be exactly like a Native.

True, there is the Siren, which is not a lot and which is too specialized to be a real popular EDC worthy option comparable to the Native or the PM2, which is what we are after here. It is not known how long the Siren will even stay in production.

The Siren is only one of multiple similar alternatives from Spyderco. As I said though, they won't be exact matches and there will differences between them and a Native. I'm not sure how you determined the Siren to be too specialized as a "real popular EDC worthy option" but thats entirely subjective.

I would suggest the Emphasis but I have a feeling I already know the reasons why that won't work either.

Well yeah, the Emphasis is a chinese made 8cr liner lock. It's not even in the same category, IOW, it 's NOT a Native redundancy. If anything, it highlights the need for a true mid size Native.

[Mushroom]

Yep, you're right!