Would anyone else like to see the Delica get a forward finger choir?

[wrdwrght]

Interestingly, my one complaint about the Military is its "non-committal" choil.

Touche :D I thought I might get a response about that. I think I'd like it either with or without a choil. The blade is so long it's hard to imagine doing much fine work with it without choking up on the blade.

“Compromise”? “Non-committal”? These terms beg the question, what is an unequivocal choil, do they not?

I'd rather the choil on the Military be more like, say, the PM2 choil. Just shaped better, for me. The Millie choil has that weird hump that just kind of takes up space for me.

To each his own, of course.

Choils do rob an edge of its length. Sal’s handle-forward designs interest me more and more.

The Millie’s is just right for me, but then, making do with a Spyderco design I’m given is part of the fun for me. I get no joy second-guessing Spyderco’s designers or modding their designs.

Not to say, I’ll take any design. Some are just a bridge too far for me.

[wrdwrght]

Interestingly, my one complaint about the Military is its "non-committal" choil.

Touche :D I thought I might get a response about that. I think I'd like it either with or without a choil. The blade is so long it's hard to imagine doing much fine work with it without choking up on the blade.

“Compromise”? “Non-committal”? These terms beg the question, what is an unequivocal choil, do they not?

I guess you could say, any modification to a ricasso or blade edge next to the handle to accommodate finger placement, and that they could be made to any desired shape or size. Or you could ..er.. hone down the definition to specify length, depth, jimping, etc.

By the way, I meant that I'd like the Millie both with and without a choil, not that I thought it ought to be more definitely one or the other. I should have said "both with or without."

I always feel guilty when I ask for a new model or modification since Spyderco must already make a hundred more models than anybody else. I haven't done a survey, so correct me if I'm wrong. I think their flexibility and openness to that is one of the secrets of their success.

But I never ask them to stop making models without choils or substitute choiled models for them.

An actual choil definition really isn’t needed here. Like porn, we’ll know it when we see it.

And I took your meaning “both with or without”.

And, no question, Spyderco listens and succeeds partly because it does.

But sitting in the cheap seats, as I do, I wish they’d listen a little less to the cash cows behind all the exclusives of late. These exclusives seem to have suffocated production of models supposedly in the catalog, and new model, too. Fortunately, Sal has acknowledged the problem, as you would expect.

Where you and I might differ is in asking for tweaks to existing models even if the original isn’t to be disco’d.

Out here in the cheap seats, I see such requests as diverting our favorite designers from offering truly new stuff (think of all the protos no one can photographs at Blade, and the Rock Jumper that likely came from the bunch).

Tweaks take a lot of time and resources. I’d rather Sal and Eric make tweaks not because they’re begged, but because their own perfectionist impulses are driving them.

[DougC-3]

And, no question, Spyderco listens and succeeds partly because it does.

But sitting in the cheap seats, as I do, I wish they’d listen a little less to the cash cows behind all the exclusives of late. These exclusives seem to have suffocated production of models supposedly in the catalog, and new model, too. Fortunately, Sal has acknowledged the problem, as you would expect.

Where you and I might differ is in asking for tweaks to existing models even if the original isn’t to be disco’d.

Out here in the cheap seats, I see such requests as diverting our favorite designers from offering truly new stuff (think of all the protos no one can photographs at Blade, and the Rock Jumper that likely came from the bunch).

Tweaks take a lot of time and resources. I’d rather Sal and Eric make tweaks not because they’re begged, but because their own perfectionist impulses are driving them.

I think the pandemic has also caused some of the slowdown, especially with the models from Japan. They were really hit hard and are still only 23% fully vaccinated. I pre-ordered the K390 Stretch in January and just got it about a week ago.

Quibbling about minor design changes, I do feel sort of like the kid sitting at the back of the classroom shooting spitballs. But I think Sal understands. I think it was the wooden prototype of the handle for the D'Allara that he said he carried around in his jacket pocket for a couple of years trying to perfect and getting input from Mrs. Glesser.

[tangent]

Would anyone else like to see the Delica get a forward finger choir?

No

The Delica and Salts are really good and functional the way they are...plenty of other models with choils.

[wrdwrght]

Quibbling about minor design changes, I do feel sort of like the kid sitting at the back of the classroom shooting spitballs. But I think Sal understands. I think it was the wooden prototype of the handle for the D'Allara that he said he carried around in his jacket pocket for a couple of years trying to perfect and getting input from Mrs. Glesser.

No question, Sal takes his time to get it right.

Then, once his design is produced, he sometimes second-guesses himself on having gotten it right and gives us new iterations of a model.

I’m really glad to have a Police4, Stretch2, D’Allara3, etc. These three, at least, Sal has said he arrived at to suit himself.

When Sal says he listens to the “back of the classroom”, I don’t doubt him (I suspect the Goldilocks’d Endela was mob-influenced) but neither do I doubt he’s an inner/family-directed dude whose long string of successes tells him he’s doing it right.

All to say, I shall remain disinclined to push for an extra length here or a sharper turn there as long as I know Sal’s got other designs in the dark. Time’s a’wasting.

[The Deacon]

Rather than having Spyderco risk messing with one of its most consistent sellers, I'd rather Sal "update" the Calypso Jr. design. Make the handle just enough taller to allow for screw construction and perhaps round off the transition between the thumb ramp and the spine. Given Moki's spotty record of late, it would then be best to manufacture them either in Golden or Taichung.

[lilshaver]

NO

Original is good for me.

[chronovore]

As it is, I don't love the Delica. The ones I've handled were not a good fit for my hand and did not flick out well. It's not so much the size as it is the shape. For instance, the little Dragonfly feels decent in my large hand and I think the choil has a lot to do with that. A finger choil might help the ergonomics of the Delica for me but probably wouldn't help the action.

I've since picked up a Rockjumper. The ergonomics are good without a choil. It also flicks out very well for a back lock. So that and the Dragonfly have become my favorite VG-10 Spydercos.

[Wartstein]

As it is, I don't love the Delica. The ones I've handled were not a good fit for my hand and did not flick out well. It's not so much the size as it is the shape. For instance, the little Dragonfly feels decent in my large hand and I think the choil has a lot to do with that. A finger choil might help the ergonomics of the Delica for me but probably wouldn't help the action.

I've since picked up a Rockjumper. The ergonomics are good without a choil. It also flicks out very well for a back lock. So that and the Dragonfly have become my favorite VG-10 Spydercos.

Valid points.

But keep in mind:
- The DFly absolutely needs a choil in order to offer a four finger grip, cause the handle (FRN part of the knife) alone would be too short for that for even small hands
- With the Delica it is a bit the opposite: Its handle (FRN part of the knife) allows for a good four finger grip exactly BECAUSE it has no choil. It is long enough for that, but if it had a choil, this would eat up so much of the handle space that larger hands would be almost forced to use the choil in order to get a good four finger grip. There would not be enough space left behind the choil (depending a bit of course on how much blade-. and how much handle part the choil would exactly have).
So for me the Delica offers the best of both worlds for a small knife: Good four finger grip on the handle plus a ricasso that I can use for choking up on no problem

[Bolster]

I agree about the radius for the leading bottom area of the scales. I just finished trimming and sanding out the area behind the choil on my micarta scales for my new K390 Stretch, so my index finger wouldn't be mashed or forced aftward on the handle. I've done the same on aftermarket scales for the PM2 and Shaman (not much need on original scales).

Wow, Doug, I've been contemplating a Stretch mod like yours for years. Can you show us the result?

[Lonehunter]

Lonehunter, do you own a Caribbean or a Rockjumper?

I'm with you on sharpening choils. They seem like a useless vanity to me, and one that gets in the way of function. A good knife should wear it's years (and sharpenings) as a badge of honor.

No I don’t even know what those are . I currently own perhaps 20, or so Spydercos. Mostly Delicas ,enduras ,one native a glow in the dark one ,a few Matriarchs , some old plane edge Spyderhawks , one Salt something ,a Yojimbo , and two Drangon Flys , for places with blade restrictions.

Now a days I carry Delicas at the gym , and the Yojimbo most days if I don’t feel like toting my XM18 .

[DougC-3]

I agree about the radius for the leading bottom area of the scales. I just finished trimming and sanding out the area behind the choil on my micarta scales for my new K390 Stretch, so my index finger wouldn't be mashed or forced aftward on the handle. I've done the same on aftermarket scales for the PM2 and Shaman (not much need on original scales).

Wow, Doug, I've been contemplating a Stretch mod like yours for years. Can you show us the result?

I'll try to post a pic or two later Wednesday. The change in the micarta behind the choil area on the Stretch doesn't look a lot different from the original FRN. I think it extended a hair more beyond the liners than the FRN to start with. I removed more material on the aftermarket PM2 & Shaman scales. (I was spoiled by the grip of the Manix at an early age and want everything to have that secure, comfortable feeling :D )

Also, about the Delica, because of its size I tend to agree with Wartstein. When I have my thumb on the blade ramp, it pushes the knife forward enough that my index finger is comfortable and the curved under-area serves as a handguard. Also the Delica has the best "available choil" (ricasso & scale front) even compared to the Endura.

And TomAiello is right about a choiled Endela being a lot like a Straight Stretch, but I still wouldn't mind having both :D

[DougC-3]

I agree about the radius for the leading bottom area of the scales. I just finished trimming and sanding out the area behind the choil on my micarta scales for my new K390 Stretch, so my index finger wouldn't be mashed or forced aftward on the handle. I've done the same on aftermarket scales for the PM2 and Shaman (not much need on original scales).

Wow, Doug, I've been contemplating a Stretch mod like yours for years. Can you show us the result?

I'll try to post a pic or two later Wednesday. The change in the micarta behind the choil area on the Stretch doesn't look a lot different from the original FRN. I think it extended a hair more beyond the liners than the FRN to start with. I removed more material on the aftermarket PM2 & Shaman scales. (I was spoiled by the grip of the Manix at an early age and want everything to have that secure, comfortable feeling :D )

Also, about the Delica, because of its size I tend to agree with Wartstein. When I have my thumb on the blade ramp, it pushes the knife forward enough that my index finger is comfortable and the curved under-area serves as a handguard. Also the Delica has the best "available choil" (ricasso & scale front) even compared to the Endura.

And TomAiello is right about a choiled Endela being a lot like a Straight Stretch, but I still wouldn't mind having both :D

Sorry I didn't have time to get a better exposed, clearer shot and from a better angle. But I'll try to explain using this one. The arrows indicate where scale material was removed.

I just included the Endela for size comparison to the Stretch. You can see from the blue original Stretch scale that the FRN is so close to the liner that it can't be significantly modified, but, with the micarta scales, if you're very careful, you can remove at least a mm of the micarta behind the choil without risking exposing the metal liner. I deliberately stopped before I had to and may go back for another quarter of a mm, but enough was removed to tell a difference in handling.

On the Shaman, I was able to remove enough of the FRN on the original scales to make a noticeable difference, and much more on the micarta scales. You can't see it in this shot, but the FRN is now only about 0.25mm thick in one area, but seems strong. On the micarta Shaman scales I decided to sand all the way down to the steel liners in a small area just to see what it would be like, and it wasn't the end of the world (after all, the Manix has bare steel all the way around). But I wouldn't do this to original scales... I hope this helps a little.

[Bolster]

The arrows indicate where scale material was removed.

Oh yes! Excellent. Yes, that's exactly what I'm working up the nerve to do to my Stretch 1 CF. It has liners to the edge, under the CF.

To modify "slack" choils, I use a grinding stone in a drill press, around 3/4-7/8 in diameter, and just grind a bit off at a time. I'm working on how to match the radius of the side of the CF scales just now, so it'll look "stock" but with the tighter choil. Thanks for the inspiration.

[Josh1973]

I honestly don't know. The only thing I can say is either people will like it or people will not like it.

[Doc Dan]

The trend is away from choils and moving the handle out to where the choil was and increasing the cutting edge. Adding choils is going backwards in design thought.