I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

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Zive
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#21

Post by Zive »

This thread has me rethinking my approach to PE H1 sharpening as well as SE H1 sharpening. I’m sure in the annals of this forum there are threads on the topic, but will SE H1 benefit from coarser finishes to the same extent?

I generally round off the ridges of the serrations on my SE H1 with the medium rods but finish with fine and UF. Seems I may have been going about it the wrong way after reading Vivi’s posts.
vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#22

Post by vivi »

Zive wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:57 pm
This thread has me rethinking my approach to PE H1 sharpening as well as SE H1 sharpening. I’m sure in the annals of this forum there are threads on the topic, but will SE H1 benefit from coarser finishes to the same extent?

I generally round off the ridges of the serrations on my SE H1 with the medium rods but finish with fine and UF. Seems I may have been going about it the wrong way after reading Vivi’s posts.
I've tried everything from 80 grit to 8,000 grit on SE H1.

Image

The lower grits do show higher edge retention, just like with PE.

However, something to keep in mind....

The coarse edge on a plain edge knife has the added benefit of bridging the gap between PE and SE. The edge will grab materials and slice more aggressively than polished PE.

Giving a serrated edge an extra coarse edge will enhance edge retention, but since a serrated edge is already such an aggressive slicer, I think putting a higher polish on them to balance out push cutting ability is something to consider.

Personally I use the medium rods for my SE knives, except for two. Diamond rods for my Tasman Salt beater, and fine rods for my z-cut.

Image

Another option is a hybrid coarse / polished edge. This Pacific Salt was sharpened at 15 degrees on diamond rods until the apex was refreshed, then I did one or two strokes per side on the fine rods at 20 degrees.

This polished up the apex enough that it can pop hairs, but the microserrations aren't completely ground off.

I used this same method on the PE Pacific in my pocket when I touched it up after the cardboard cutting. 200 grit stone to refresh the apex, then did one stroke per side freshly cleaned fine rods at 20 degrees. Aggressive slicer with clean shaving ability.
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araneae
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#23

Post by araneae »

Very interested in this. I am a bit of an LC200N holdout at present, based on Larrin's performance reporting, and my personal experience with H1, I have had a really hard time personally justifying the added expense it creates in the Seki made Salt models. I do prefer FFG, but I'm not sure it matters enough to me to pay $20 extra for. I have used PE H1 for work extensively and while it is no S30V, it does the job and is very easy to return to sharp. I was going to grab an LC Pac Salt using a recently posted coupon, alas it had already sold out...

I just picked up a used Salt 2 in PE H1. It was pretty dull so I sharpened at 18 degrees/ 320 grit with a light stropping to finish. I also re-profiled the blade to a pointy Delica 3 tip. It shaves effortlessly and I will be carrying it a bit now.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#24

Post by FK »

vivi,
It would be very interesting to compare the H1 experiment with your PE Salt with LC200N sharpened to 20-24 included with the DMT XC 220 grit stone for comparison. In addition, a VG-10 or S30V with same included angle at 220 grit.
The subject H1 steel is an austenitic stainless with cold rolling to obtain work hardening to Rc 55-57 approx. Advantages/disadvantages obtained for slicing with very low included angle and coarse finish should translate to other steels as well.

Regards,
FK
Zive
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#25

Post by Zive »

vivi wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:36 pm
Zive wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:57 pm
This thread has me rethinking my approach to PE H1 sharpening as well as SE H1 sharpening. I’m sure in the annals of this forum there are threads on the topic, but will SE H1 benefit from coarser finishes to the same extent?

I generally round off the ridges of the serrations on my SE H1 with the medium rods but finish with fine and UF. Seems I may have been going about it the wrong way after reading Vivi’s posts.
I've tried everything from 80 grit to 8,000 grit on SE H1.

Image

The lower grits do show higher edge retention, just like with PE.

However, something to keep in mind....

The coarse edge on a plain edge knife has the added benefit of bridging the gap between PE and SE. The edge will grab materials and slice more aggressively than polished PE.

Giving a serrated edge an extra coarse edge will enhance edge retention, but since a serrated edge is already such an aggressive slicer, I think putting a higher polish on them to balance out push cutting ability is something to consider.

Personally I use the medium rods for my SE knives, except for two. Diamond rods for my Tasman Salt beater, and fine rods for my z-cut.

Image

Another option is a hybrid coarse / polished edge. This Pacific Salt was sharpened at 15 degrees on diamond rods until the apex was refreshed, then I did one or two strokes per side on the fine rods at 20 degrees.

This polished up the apex enough that it can pop hairs, but the microserrations aren't completely ground off.

I used this same method on the PE Pacific in my pocket when I touched it up after the cardboard cutting. 200 grit stone to refresh the apex, then did one stroke per side freshly cleaned fine rods at 20 degrees. Aggressive slicer with clean shaving ability.
That’s an interesting way of looking at it; coarse finish acting as microserrations. I’ll sharpen just with brown rods the next time I touch up my SE DF2 or Enuff. I’ll see if it’s too grabby/snaggy for my use.

I might also try the hybrid approach recently discussed with sharpening the scalloped side with a coarse grit and the opposite side with a fine grit.
metaphoricalsimile
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#26

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

vivi wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:17 pm
Lumpy wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:42 pm
The internet hive mind of “plain H1 is garbage” had kept me from ever getting one. Which at this point seems silly to me. I may just have to snag a cheap used H1 pac salt myself and do a similar challenge. Cool stuff Vivi.
It even got to me to a degree, and I've been using PE H1 for a long time.

The past few years I've been of the mindset that I should only bother with SE H1 when it comes to my EDC folder.

Granted when I started carrying H1, I was sharpening it on the fine or ultrafine stones.

When I started doing my low grit experiments with H1, I only took it to the medium rods, and tried tried a DMT X coarse finish on the Aqua Salt once IIRC.

My testing with various grits has shown for my uses I can get 3-4x the edge holding by sharpening in the 200-400 grit range instead of using the fine sharpmaker rods.

H1 PE is an amazing steel aside from edge holding. Extremely tough, rust proof and among the easiest steels to sharpen.

By dropping the grit to 200 I've compensated for its weakest area. This has been my first time using PE H1 extensively with such a coarse edge, and so far the results are exceptional.

After carrying the knife for a while I'm kicking myself for overlooking PE H1 as much as I have. It's holding up perfectly well to my EDC uses, and it's a pleasure to sharpen.

I touched it up last night after the cardboard cutting and it only took about 4 passes per side on the 200 grit stone, then stropped once per side. Even at this low grit I'm able to get it catching hairs above the skin.

I'll post a video of some cutting soon.
I'd like to see some side-by-side cut testing with a low grit and high grit edge on a standardized medium tbh.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#27

Post by vivi »

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:29 pm
I'd like to see some side-by-side cut testing with a low grit and high grit edge on a standardized medium tbh.
Once I get another Pacific Salt in the mail later this week I could try to repeat my cardboard cut test. I'll set the edge to a similar angle but go up to an ultrafine finish and we can see if it struggles any more or less.

I'd also like to do a rope cutting comparison with my aqua salt. 100' of 1/2" nylon rope is about $20, wonder if that would be enough to do a meaningful comparison between 200 grit and ultrafine finish?

I have the video from the first cardboard test edited and ready to go. I'll have it uploaded tomorrow. The results are interesting.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#28

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

vivi wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:43 pm
metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:29 pm
I'd like to see some side-by-side cut testing with a low grit and high grit edge on a standardized medium tbh.
Once I get another Pacific Salt in the mail later this week I could try to repeat my cardboard cut test. I'll set the edge to a similar angle but go up to an ultrafine finish and we can see if it struggles any more or less.

I'd also like to do a rope cutting comparison with my aqua salt. 100' of 1/2" nylon rope is about $20, wonder if that would be enough to do a meaningful comparison between 200 grit and ultrafine finish?

I have the video from the first cardboard test edited and ready to go, I'll have it uploaded tomorrow.
I think the real challenge is finding an end-point to the test that is reasonably objective. Pete at Cedric and Ada using paper slicing ability, but IMO it's still a little subjective, and I think he could probably continue cutting rope with his knives after their paper-slicing ability is gone.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#29

Post by vivi »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=s4igtwiBK1o.

Here's a cutting demo with the 200 grit edge on PE H1.

I think it does a good job of showing how these coarse edges continue to show excellent cutting abilities even after being dulled to the point shaving ability is gone

It also shows what I've been experiencing day to day - PE H1 holds an edge pretty well with this sortof edge.

Here's a video showing how the sharpness can be restored in 90 seconds.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=p1vzDnHZI-M

Considering I should be able to go 3-4 weeks between sharpenings, that comes out to around 22 minutes per year to maintain the edge on this knife.

Eventually I'll repeat this test with a PE LC200N Pacific Salt.
Last edited by vivi on Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#30

Post by Igi964 »

You are a mad genius. In the best way. Making one "soft" steel, performe like some top tier stuff. Unbeliveble. You are the part of what makes this forum such a great place. Thank you. Now I have to get me some plain edge H1 😁

BTW nice watch. Hamilton?
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#31

Post by vivi »

Igi964 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:06 am
You are a mad genius. In the best way. Making one "soft" steel, performe like some top tier stuff. Unbeliveble. You are the part of what makes this forum such a great place. Thank you. Now I have to get me some plain edge H1 😁

Being a sharpening nerd has its perks :D
BTW nice watch. Hamilton?
Thanks! It's a szanto....1100 series I believe.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#32

Post by u.w. »

Wow. Very impressive vivi, and thank you very much for taking the time to not only experiment, but share it with us. You are one of the ones, of the few, who have influenced how I sharpen the knives I carry. Cliff Stamp and Joe Calton being the other two (both praise the lower grit finishes in a lot of applications). And thanks for turning me on to the sharpening "stones" you use too. I've been rocking them for maybe a year now? and love'm!

I've been happy and satisfied rocking low grit edges (400 grit and lower) for years now. Heck, my most used kitchen knife (a Cold Steel Roach Belly ((of which the Bow River is an almost identical twin - the Bow River being thicker, heavier & more expensive..)) that I've thinned down 'till the hollow is almost gone), is fully apexed / sharpened on my yellow 260 grit plate - and I love it. Talk about "Grabby!")
What you're doing is great vivi, and I hope you keep doing it.

u.w.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#33

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

Are y'all watching the same video as me where the blade had obvious dead spots after cutting all the cardboard?
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#34

Post by tonijedi »

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:37 pm
Are y'all watching the same video as me where the blade had obvious dead spots after cutting all the cardboard?
Yes.
From my understanding, it's being pointed out that the edge degrades for cutting the thin paper but it's still ok for the cardboard.

Furthermore, the edge is brought back easily.

I don't think Vivi was hiding anything.
metaphoricalsimile
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#35

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

tonijedi wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:54 pm
metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:37 pm
Are y'all watching the same video as me where the blade had obvious dead spots after cutting all the cardboard?
Yes.
From my understanding, it's being pointed out that the edge degrades for cutting the thin paper but it's still ok for the cardboard.

Furthermore, the edge is brought back easily.

I don't think Vivi was hiding anything.
I mean a 10 degree bevel is going to cut cardboard forever regardless of the steel. If all I ever cut was cardboard that would solve my problem right there, but I also might just carry around a box cutter.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#36

Post by vivi »

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:37 pm
Are y'all watching the same video as me where the blade had obvious dead spots after cutting all the cardboard?
Not sure what you mean by dead spots? I think I tried four slices on the thin paper after cutting cardboard, and it sliced through every time.

One of the cuts snagged for a bit, but I think that was more due to my technique than the edge being dead. The last paper cut I made sure to use the full cutting edge, and no part of it hung up.

I thought the video showed that even though the edge lost shaving ability, it was no where close to losing general cutting ability. What did you think?
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vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#37

Post by vivi »

u.w. wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:13 am
Wow. Very impressive vivi, and thank you very much for taking the time to not only experiment, but share it with us. You are one of the ones, of the few, who have influenced how I sharpen the knives I carry. Cliff Stamp and Joe Calton being the other two (both praise the lower grit finishes in a lot of applications). And thanks for turning me on to the sharpening "stones" you use too. I've been rocking them for maybe a year now? and love'm!
I recall hearing Cliff discuss this in depth when I first got into knives, but I never gave it a shot until years later. I wish I tried it sooner - it's such a time saver!
I've been happy and satisfied rocking low grit edges (400 grit and lower) for years now. Heck, my most used kitchen knife (a Cold Steel Roach Belly ((of which the Bow River is an almost identical twin - the Bow River being thicker, heavier & more expensive..)) that I've thinned down 'till the hollow is almost gone), is fully apexed / sharpened on my yellow 260 grit plate - and I love it. Talk about "Grabby!")
What you're doing is great vivi, and I hope you keep doing it.

u.w.
That's the thing I really like about these edges - the way they grab materials they're cutting.

I've got a fresh set of these diamond plates I've been meaning to use for sharpening, and I'll use the old rusty one for reprofiling. I'm surprised I still get such good edges off the old one. Not bad for $12. Still have three other sides to wear out too.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#38

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

vivi wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:14 pm
metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:37 pm
Are y'all watching the same video as me where the blade had obvious dead spots after cutting all the cardboard?
Not sure what you mean by dead spots? I think I tried four slices on the thin paper after cutting cardboard, and it sliced through every time.

One of the cuts snagged for a bit, but I think that was more due to my technique than the edge being dead. The last paper cut I made sure to use the full cutting edge, and no part of it hung up.

I thought the video showed that even though the edge lost shaving ability, it was no where close to losing general cutting ability. What did you think?
When you were cutting the tracing paper at the end there were several instances where your slow, deliberate slices got held up on the belly of the blade, which seemed to me to be where you were doing most of the cardboard cutting, and you also started the slices either with the tip or the heel of the blade, the areas of the blade that were relatively unworn by cardboard. I just am not convinced by this test that doing a course edge actually helps H1 edge retention, I *am* convinced that a 10 DPS primary bevel angle will keep a knife cutting cardboard forever though.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#39

Post by cabfrank »

I think that was a whole lot of cardboard, more than most of us cut without touching up any steel. I thought it performed well, and obviously the resharpening was a breeze. I know I would be very happy with that combination of edge retention and ease of bringing back the edge. I don't know if it is a function of the angle, but whatever works, works.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

#40

Post by 40mm »

Thanks for this Vivi! You’ve definitely helped give plain H1 some respect. I know I always avoided it just from what I’d read online, but setup and sharpened the way you’ve done I see it would easily do everything I could need. Side note, (since you’re kinda the pac salt dude around these parts) have the PAC Salt 2s that you’ve purchased felt as solid as the older models? I read some posts about excessive play and lock rock.
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