I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

[vivi]

For the past month and a half, I've just been carrying my Pacific Salts.

I love my M4 Chief, K390 Police etc., but nothing beats this model for practical summer time carry.

The past week I've been carrying this one in particular:




I have every Pacific Salt. PE, SE, H1, LC200N. Why PE H1 out of all my choices available?



I had been carrying this Pacific Salt, a PE LC200N full flat ground model.

I love full flat grinds and I've enjoyed using LC200N over the years.

But the edge retention on this knife left me unimpressed to be honest. Same story with my Siren, as much as I like that knife.

So I decided I wanted to get a fresh H1 PE Pacific Salt and compare the edge retention to the LC200N Pacific.

Common knowledge is LC200N holds an edge much better, but to be completely honest I'm not so sure I've seen it.

First thing I did was reprofile the H1 PE:



I brought it down to the 10-12 degrees per side ballpark with a 200 grit diamond plate. Refined the apex on the 200 grit stone until it would cleanly shave. Then stropped on 40 micron about 5 times per side and the edge caught hairs above the skin despite how toothy it felt when I ran my nail down the apex.

That was a few days ago. Carried this folder every day since. The knife still cleanly shaves.

I knew this edge configuration would work to H1's strengths and weaknesses.

I used a PE Aqua Salt for edge retention experiments years ago.

At the time I sharpened every knife with the fine or ultrafine rods.

Tried the medium rods on the Aqua Salt and saw better edge retention. Same thing when I stepped down to a DMT X coarse edge.

Superior edge retention was found each time I sharpened to a lower grit with H1.



You can read more about the benefits of low grit sharpening here - https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=85096

H1 in PE loses a fine apex very easily due to how soft it is. Coarse edges are like a cheat code for this steel. While a fine apex loses cutting ability very fast as the apex deforms, the effect is not as drastic on a toothy, microserrated edge.

So I take the geometry thin because H1's toughness allows for acute angles to remain stable. I keep the apex coarse to keep slicing aggression high day after day, week after week.

In fact I will go as far to say that based on casual observations, this knife appears to be capable of outcutting my M4 and Rex45 Chiefs if I sharpen the Chiefs on the fine sharpmaker rods.

Of course, all three knives sharpened the same, the Rex45 will easily outcut H1 PE.

But this apples to oranges comparison is important, because it illustrates how sharpening technique can trump steel chemistry when it comes to edge performance.

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EDIT: Updating the original post with some videos

https://youtube.com/watch?v=s4igtwiBK1o

https://youtube.com/watch?v=p1vzDnHZI-M

There's a cutting demo followed by a sharpening demonstration.

Here is a rope cutting video:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VbDHhIx-ZO4

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[ladybug93]

i've been curious about this myself, but haven't had a chance to try pe h1 yet. i've heard it's about on par with aus8, which is actually fine for my typical use, even though i prefer better steels.

i also found the pe lc200n to just be okay. at first, i thought it was close to my s30v, but i think it's a bit softer.

i don't mind the softer steels though. i prioritize corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening over long edge holding.

watching this thread for when that 4" leaf enuff is released. :)

[vivi]

i've been curious about this myself, but haven't had a chance to try pe h1 yet. i've heard it's about on par with aus8, which is actually fine for my typical use, even though i prefer better steels.

i also found the pe lc200n to just be okay. at first, i thought it was close to my s30v, but i think it's a bit softer.

i don't mind the softer steels though. i prioritize corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening over long edge holding.

watching this thread for when that 4" leaf enuff is released. :)

I have similar priorities for steels.

LC and H1 are two of my favorites. I'm just a little surprised at my own edge holding observations.

PE edge holding is just a bit better than H1 PE. I'd say it's in between H1 PE and VG10, and those two are close already.

In serrated edges H1 has held a better edge for me. I'm reprofiling the LC200N SE Pacific in hopes that helps the edge retention. It had been sharpened a few times but was still the factory angle.

The consensus I read online seems to be LC is clearly a step above H1 in either edge type and I haven't really seen it.

So first order of business is carrying PE H1 for a while as an EDC. Been a few years since I have, and I want to re-examine its edge holding.

Next is putting the same edge on both the H1 PE and the LC200N PE and doing a more controlled edge retention comparison.

Regardless of the results, I'm a big fan of both steels.

[Evil D]

I'm pretty sure Sal said something along the lines of LC being just a bit below VG10, and really what would he know about any of this stuff right? :rolleyes:


For my uses, which are strictly with serrations and really don't apply here, I haven't seen enough difference between the two steels to deliberately choose one over the other. From what I've seen they're similar enough in performance that I'd likely choose LC just because it can be full flat grind and because H1 seems to be limited to Japanese models accept for a couple very rare exceptions so LC has and probably will continue coming in models that I like more than the models offered in H1.

[skeeg11]

I have no experience with H1 PE. Only H1 SE so I'm really looking forward to your comparison between H1 PE and LC200N PE with similar DPS. Overall, I've been very pleased with the balance of properties in PE LC200N. Push cut or toothy coarse, your choice. The fine grain structure and small carbides allow for a glass polished smooth push cut edge in no time at all. I generally start out with a polished push cut edge on my Siren. It doesn't last as long as CPM steels, but decent. I suppose edge retention is somewhat dependent upon the material you cut. I cut mostly flesh with my LC200N PE knives not cardboard. I have box cutters for that. Sacrilegious, I know. :o As the bloom begins to fade on the polished edge of my Siren, I'll do a couple passes on each side on the DMT's for around a 20 degree microbevel and a couple slow light swipes on my smooth steel and I'm very much back in the game . If I have time to strop, so much the better. All this takes less than a minute, literally. I do keep my SpydieChef on the toothy side, tho.

As I've said, I'm really looking forward to your H1/LC200N PE comparison as my approach to PE LC200N may be different than others. After all, when in the field I do carry a Sheffield/Victorinox? pocket steel in my breast pocket. (you might be a knife geek if.........)

[Zive]

This edge on this steel gets a bad rap. Hope you’re able to change some minds and show what it’s capable of.

Thank you for your service, Vivi.

[ladybug93]

i like both steels as well, but i prefer h1 for se. i can't compare pe because i don't have any pe h1.

[ZrowsN1s]

A polished PE H-1 edge may not last long, but man is it a joy to sharpen and polish up. Easy to mirror polish, and easy to get a screaming sharp initial edge. Doesn't last, but if you don't mind hitting it with a pasted strop everyday, polished edges on H-1 are fun. A good steel to learn to sharpen and strop on.

[vivi]

This edge on this steel gets a bad rap. Hope you’re able to change some minds and show what it’s capable of.

Thank you for your service, Vivi.

It will be interesting seeing how it fares. I use my Aqua Salt as a camp knife but it has been around 5 years since I carried PE H1 as any EDC.

I remember the edge retention not being great, but good enough for me to EDC. That was back when I sharpened on the fine rods too. I think it'll work just fine for me with the toothier edge.

A polished PE H-1 edge may not last long, but man is it a joy to sharpen and polish up. Easy to mirror polish, and easy to get a screaming sharp initial edge. Doesn't last, but if you don't mind hitting it with a pasted strop everyday, polished edges on H-1 are fun. A good steel to learn to sharpen and strop on.

This is true. Doesn't hold it long, but bringing it back it a piece of cake.

[ladybug93]

i have been planning on buying a pe h1 knife, but was holding out for a blacked out df2 salt. i may die before that happens though.

[Christian Noble]

Hi vivi,

I can concur with majority of your assessments as I have EDC'd a Salt and then Salt 2 PE in H1 for many years. In the Salt 2's, I have both the 'regular' blade shape and Wharncliffe. I've also got both blade types in LC200N now too and have rotated since LC200N became available. I can only say qualitatively I do notice an improvement in edge retention on the LC200N, but not a tremendous amount, especially when H1 is left somewhat course as you said. I usually sharpen at home on automative sandpaper, 1000 to 1500 unless very dull, and in the field with a Fallkniven DC3. Starting to use the Sharpmaker more now with LC200N however.

Interestingly, and I've noticed this on more than one DF2 PE in H1, as I have a couple as well as the wife who carries one daily -- the edge retention on the DF2 is better than the Salt 2, Ladybug, Aqua Salt and even a G. Sakai Sabi 1 I have in H1 PE. Don't know why, just another qualitative observation. Will be watching this thread as I am a fan of H1 in PE for it's ultimate in practicality. Thanks! Chris

[vivi]

Just ordered a yellow PE Pacific Salt 2. Plan to use the dark green dye I used on my M4 Chief. Might swap my black blade into the handle afterwards so it matches the Chief!

[vivi]

I've also got both blade types in LC200N now too and have rotated since LC200N became available. I can only say qualitatively I do notice an improvement in edge retention on the LC200N, but not a tremendous amount, especially when H1 is left somewhat course as you said.

Interestingly, and I've noticed this on more than one DF2 PE in H1, as I have a couple as well as the wife who carries one daily -- the edge retention on the DF2 is better than the Salt 2, Ladybug, Aqua Salt and even a G. Sakai Sabi 1 I have in H1 PE. Don't know why, just another qualitative observation. Will be watching this thread as I am a fan of H1 in PE for it's ultimate in practicality. Thanks! Chris

LC200N definitely feels harder to me when I sharpen it, which is one reason I expected the edge holding difference to be wider.

That's interesting your DF holds an edge longer. I wonder if it came out a little harder than your others?

[vivi]

Put this edge on it the 26th and have EDC'd it since, using it for all my cutting outside the kitchen.

Still able to scrape shave. Bit surprised to be honest. I figured shaving sharpness would drop off quick and it'd hold a utility edge for a few weeks.

[Hopsbreath]

I took a drive out to Hood River, Oregon a few years ago and met with Ben Dale, investor of the Edge Pro, so I could get a personal workshop on how to use his machine. He was very friendly and accommodating; the conversation went from knives, to his military service, coffee, and even yoga. I got to chatting with one of the other guys at the shop that day, only to see Ben pull a PE Salt 1 out of his pocket and open some mail. My intention was to pick his brain for a moment about H1 and the Salt 1 in general, but before I could he was off and talking about a yoga retreat in North Carolina. As a result I bought a PE Pacific Salt after moving to Florida with the mentality being, if it’s good enough for Ben, it’ll be good enough for me on beach day.

[vivi]

Well the edge still shaves.

I'm getting impatient with how long its taking to dull. Not a problem I expected to have.

Tonight I'm going to slice up a bunch of cardboard, then try cutting some misc materials afterwards and seeing how it does.



When I'm done it'll give me an excuse to sharpen it up again. Probably going with the same sharpening process. 200 grit until the apex is refreshed, refine until it shaves, then stropped on 40 micron. Maybe one stroke per side on the fine rods instead of the strop, I get good results that way too.

I took a drive out to Hood River, Oregon a few years ago and met with Ben Dale, investor of the Edge Pro, so I could get a personal workshop on how to use his machine. He was very friendly and accommodating; the conversation went from knives, to his military service, coffee, and even yoga. I got to chatting with one of the other guys at the shop that day, only to see Ben pull a PE Salt 1 out of his pocket and open some mail. My intention was to pick his brain for a moment about H1 and the Salt 1 in general, but before I could he was off and talking about a yoga retreat in North Carolina. As a result I bought a PE Pacific Salt after moving to Florida with the mentality being, if it’s good enough for Ben, it’ll be good enough for me on beach day.

That's pretty cool! It's always interesting to see what folks in the industry EDC. I know one of the knifemakers I've purchased fixed blades from, Landi, EDC's a Native.

[Doc Dan]

Vivi, I think you have answered a mystery that has plagued forums for a long while and that is, "Why do people have such varied edge retention experiences with some steels, particularly H1?" It think the answer is how these steels are sharpened and to what grit.

I think your observation that H1 at low grit holds an edge well is highly provocative. I have noticed that H1 PE holds and edge like AUS-8 for me, but I only use medium stones and never fine. Yours is doing better than that at lower grits. Also, I use only 30* inclusive and you are using 24* inclusive, it seems. That thin coarse edge makes sense now that you say it.

[Lumpy]

I’m following for the updates, this is a neat experiment. As time has gone on steels in everyday use have become less and less important to me. I still like to nerd out about all the steels and their chemical makeups and attributes, that stuff is very interesting to me, but in real life the actual knife design and ergos seem far more important than if the knife is vg10 or Rex 45. Every steel I’ve used has got the job done.

The internet hive mind of “plain H1 is garbage” had kept me from ever getting one. Which at this point seems silly to me. I may just have to snag a cheap used H1 pac salt myself and do a similar challenge. Cool stuff Vivi.

[JRinFL]

This quote from Larrin seems apropos:

“Thin edges sharpened to acute angles cut much better than thick edges. This is called “cutting ability” which is the energy required to cut through something. This is different than sharpness. An axe can be sharpened to very high sharpness but the energy required for cutting remains relatively high. A knife with high cutting ability, even while dull, will keep on cutting depending on the material being cut”
(from https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/03/04/all-about-aeb-l/)

[vivi]

The internet hive mind of “plain H1 is garbage” had kept me from ever getting one. Which at this point seems silly to me. I may just have to snag a cheap used H1 pac salt myself and do a similar challenge. Cool stuff Vivi.

It even got to me to a degree, and I've been using PE H1 for a long time.

The past few years I've been of the mindset that I should only bother with SE H1 when it comes to my EDC folder.

Granted when I started carrying H1, I was sharpening it on the fine or ultrafine stones.

When I started doing my low grit experiments with H1, I only took it to the medium rods, and tried tried a DMT X coarse finish on the Aqua Salt once IIRC.

My testing with various grits has shown for my uses I can get 3-4x the edge holding by sharpening in the 200-400 grit range instead of using the fine sharpmaker rods.

H1 PE is an amazing steel aside from edge holding. Extremely tough, rust proof and among the easiest steels to sharpen.

By dropping the grit to 200 I've compensated for its weakest area. This has been my first time using PE H1 extensively with such a coarse edge, and so far the results are exceptional.

After carrying the knife for a while I'm kicking myself for overlooking PE H1 as much as I have. It's holding up perfectly well to my EDC uses, and it's a pleasure to sharpen.

I touched it up last night after the cardboard cutting and it only took about 4 passes per side on the 200 grit stone, then stropped once per side. Even at this low grit I'm able to get it catching hairs above the skin.

I'll post a video of some cutting soon.