Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

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Fireman
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Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#1

Post by Fireman »

https://youtu.be/zhjU2pWO0Ns
https://en.rahven.store/
https://youtu.be/VwlGme6AUtI

See what you think!
Hopefully this will be a mule and more!

From the elastic ceramic thread…

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=89401

“We're testing samples now. We'll put in on the CATRA tomorrow. Thinking about a Mule Team.

sal“
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#2

Post by Matus »

The tough part will be the fact, that you can't sharpen these with diamond plates or diamond stones (like Venev, Practical Shaprening, etc.). I bought two of the smalle kitchen knives from Rahven and also talked to Roman about the sharpening and he said that one needs diamond abrasive (like a lapping film) of a softer substrate. So while indeed doable, there are no ready made solutions on the market right now.
... I like weird :bug-red :bug-white-red :bug-white ...
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#3

Post by Fireman »

Your tag line says that you like weird :D
I plan on getting some lapping film and a mouse pad to sharpen mine. I predict that it should be easier that sharpen than some super steels.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#4

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

For the time being, for diamond lapping films I recommend "practicalsharpening" as a source. I use his films on gun foam case with good success.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#5

Post by kwakster »

Matus wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:45 pm
The tough part will be the fact, that you can't sharpen these with diamond plates or diamond stones (like Venev, Practical Shaprening, etc.). I bought two of the smalle kitchen knives from Rahven and also talked to Roman about the sharpening and he said that one needs diamond abrasive (like a lapping film) of a softer substrate. So while indeed doable, there are no ready made solutions on the market right now.
Paper Wheels with diamond compounds will bring out the best & keenest edges these new high impact ceramic knives have to offer, and also do it within a reasonable time frame.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#6

Post by Gtscotty »

KKnives_Switzerland wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:15 am
For the time being, for diamond lapping films I recommend "practicalsharpening" as a source. I use his films on gun foam case with good success.
Was going to buy from them, but No Bueno from the US.... $18 shipping on a $12 lapping film, ouch. I have 3M 6 and 1 micron films on the way from Mr. Bezos to try though. I'm curious who people's preferred US source for diamond lapping films is though.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#7

Post by Fireman »

I was wondering about the paper wheels and the ceramic. I think I see a bench grinder in my future. I love the ghost.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#8

Post by kwakster »

An oldie from 2013, but it gives an idea about what is possible using Paper Wheels with diamond compounds on ceramic knives:

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sha ... e.1088417/
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#9

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Important news: Today I managed to sharpen it on both copper bonded CBN and vitrified diamond stones acquired from Practical Sharpening. I reinvestigated after Sal reporting success with CBN. The trick seems to be using not too coarse of a grit (not below 400 grit) and a little more pressure (very subjective). I am investigating this more. The more sharpening options we have, the better. Will re etch my stones; while I keep my stones aggressive, the elastic ceramic sets higher demands it seems. Also not too aggressive, as others have pointed out (Jende). In any case, the diamond foil on foam works reliably. But I am pretty excited about certain stones seeming to be working after all.
Will go back into my cave now, try more and keep you guys updated.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#10

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

kwakster wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:38 pm
Matus wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:45 pm
The tough part will be the fact, that you can't sharpen these with diamond plates or diamond stones (like Venev, Practical Shaprening, etc.). I bought two of the smalle kitchen knives from Rahven and also talked to Roman about the sharpening and he said that one needs diamond abrasive (like a lapping film) of a softer substrate. So while indeed doable, there are no ready made solutions on the market right now.
Paper Wheels with diamond compounds will bring out the best & keenest edges these new high impact ceramic knives have to offer, and also do it within a reasonable time frame.
Careful with the speed though, while the elastic ceramic is heat resistant, what it doesn't like is temperature differences throughout the material. So just like with steel knives, keeping the edge cool is crucial, albeit for different reasons in this case. (Micro chipping)
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#11

Post by kwakster »

Paper Wheels with diamond paste & oil used on a half-speed grinder (1400-1700 rpm) will not overheat an edge, be it steel, sintered titanium, or ceramic.
Not only is there almost no friction due to the high quality oil used, part of the oil is also absorbed by the cardboard Wheels and just sits below the surface in liquid form, acting like a heat sink.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#12

Post by marty_bill_ »

Omg 😲 that Cedric and Ada video is crazy! Wow good stuff!!
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#13

Post by Fireman »

marty_bill_ wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:14 am
Omg 😲 that Cedric and Ada video is crazy! Wow good stuff!!
Right!?!?!!
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#14

Post by Fireman »

kwakster wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:48 am
Paper Wheels with diamond paste & oil used on a half-speed grinder (1400-1700 rpm) will not overheat an edge, be it steel, sintered titanium, or ceramic.
Not only is there almost no friction due to the high quality oil used, part of the oil is also absorbed by the cardboard Wheels and just sits below the surface in liquid form, acting like a heat sink.
Do I get a bench grinder or a super vitrified stone from BBB?!?!?!

Arghhhhhh!!!
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#15

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

kwakster wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:48 am
Paper Wheels with diamond paste & oil used on a half-speed grinder (1400-1700 rpm) will not overheat an edge, be it steel, sintered titanium, or ceramic.
Not only is there almost no friction due to the high quality oil used, part of the oil is also absorbed by the cardboard Wheels and just sits below the surface in liquid form, acting like a heat sink.
Ah perfect, that's similar to what I do too. I said this because I have seen many people run bone dry paper wheels at super high speeds. So I was a little alerted. 😅
What's your preferred oil? My favorite is "Vascomill 10" from Blaser. Quite pricey, but excellent stuff.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#16

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Fireman wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:31 pm
kwakster wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:48 am
Paper Wheels with diamond paste & oil used on a half-speed grinder (1400-1700 rpm) will not overheat an edge, be it steel, sintered titanium, or ceramic.
Not only is there almost no friction due to the high quality oil used, part of the oil is also absorbed by the cardboard Wheels and just sits below the surface in liquid form, acting like a heat sink.
Do I get a bench grinder or a super vitrified stone from BBB?!?!?!

Arghhhhhh!!!
If you have the funds for either, intend to mess with the elastic ceramic, and care for my two cent opinion, my recommendation would be a bench grinder with two way direction, adjustable speed, with rubber contact wheel and the 3M diamond belts which Trugrit sells. (The 3M diamond belts require to be kept wet while using by manufacturers spec, but that's what we should do anyways as others and myself have pointed out above. A sponge or if in the budget mist nozzle is your friend.) What's also nice and what I use for steel, but thanks to Sal's findings with electroplated CBN I will try this today on the HIC ceramic too, is a Tormek with electroplated aftermarket CBN wheels. Running in Blaser Vascomill 10 oil in the cooling tray instead of water. (No rust on the metal base of the CBN wheel.) I will report on how it works out on the tormek with electroplated CBN wheels.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#17

Post by kwakster »

KKnives_Switzerland wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:39 am
What's your preferred oil? My favorite is "Vascomill 10" from Blaser. Quite pricey, but excellent stuff.
The oil type i use on my Paper Wheels is Nano-Oil 5 weight.
I have been using this oil exclusively for quite a few years now, and so far it's the best i've come across.
It remains speculation if that is because of the special "fullerene" additives or something else entirely, but it seems to make the diamond particles cut cleaner than anything else i've experimented with.
Certain steels like ZDP-189 and S35VN come off the 15 micron diamond compound wheel completely burr-free and ready to use, which is something i've never been able to do with any other oil type.

Both the original Tormek diamond wheels and the aftermarket CBN wheels will sharpen any type of ceramic knife, but at least on the current ceramic types the resulting edges definitely need refinement or the apex will not last long.
I refine ceramic edges at the very least up to 6 micron (this to balance keenness & edge holding with time spent behind the wheels), but a refinement up to 1.0 micron will result in further improved keenness & edge holding.
Maybe the high impact ceramic will be different in that regard, i don't know yet.

Good idea to try using a CBN wheel on a Tormek running in thin oil, i plan exactly the same when the SB-250 Blackstone (black silicon carbide) on my Tormek T7 wears out.
That stone will also create a new edge on ceramic knives btw, on some a bit faster than others, but it definitely works.

Below is an example of a good quality ceramic knife with it's edge refined up to 1.0 micron.
Even Cliff Stamp seemed to like it (he wrote a comment)

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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#18

Post by Fireman »

I will look into a bench grinder. Thank you.
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#19

Post by Vaugith »

Gtscotty wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:08 pm
[...] I'm curious who people's preferred US source for diamond lapping films is though.
How about KMEsharp? Small, but diamond lapping films none the less. Where do they get them?
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Re: Elastic ceramic hopefully to mule and more.

#20

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Vaugith wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:27 pm
Gtscotty wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:08 pm
[...] I'm curious who people's preferred US source for diamond lapping films is though.
How about KMEsharp? Small, but diamond lapping films none the less. Where do they get them?
I think it was in the other elastic ceramic thread where someone mentioned a good US source. I get mine from practicalsharpening.com, but as others have pointed out, shippping from Europe is steep.
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