Metal used that doesn’t need diamond to sharpen

[S-3 ranch]

At what point do I need to up my sharpening equipment, which commonly offered steel that spyderco offers is the breaking point to need diamond to sharpen?
As I got some stretch 2 k390 on order and maybe a ZDP 189
And see mules and other models that I pass on that might be beyond my equipment capabilities

[z1r]

I'm interested in seeing what folks have to say.

I have reprofiled my ZDP DF2 to 17 DPS and did so with my std Lansky kit. Took a while but I am quite pleased with the results.

I got a K390 Endela on Tuesday and cut up a lot of cardboard. The front half of the blade was still paper slicing sharp afterward but the back half no so much. The factory edge was 15 DPS so I used the brown rods on the Sharpmaker and within minutes the blade was back to slicing paper. I expected it to be much more difficult to sharpen.

So, that's my experience anyway.

[The Meat man]

You can sharpen even Maxamet and CPM S110V with ceramic or silicon carbide (SiC) stones. (I have used both with both.) From what I understand, the real advantage of diamond or CBN is (1) slightly better edge quality for high vanadium/tungsten carbide steel, depending on your grit finish, and (2) faster sharpening.

[Doc Dan]

K390 can be sharpened on your standard Sharpmaker or Lansky. It may take longer, but it can be done. That is one of the reasons I love K390 so much.

[p_atrick]

If you decide to up your sharpening equipment, I'd take a look at the King Neo 800, which is sold by Deadbox Hero (or Triple B, never know which to use when referring to Shawn). My understanding is that diamond products like DMT cut much deeper because diamonds are electroplated to the surface. The diamonds wear over time and no longer cut so deep, and they will eventually flake off. You could go the super vitrified route (also sold by Shawn, currently out of stock) but man are those expensive. You would get the horsepower of diamonds without the deep scratches. Those stones should hold up much longer as well. The King Neo gives you silicon carbide in a splash 'n go package. That should tide you over (the Neo handles high-hardness ZDP with ease). Not sure how the Neo would hold up against something like Maxamet though.

[spoonrobot]

Even cheap diamond plate is better than india/crystolon/ceramic alumina stones. I bought some $7 diamond plates off eBay and they've displaced all my other sharpening stones. No reason not to go with diamond now IMO.

[The Meat man]

Even cheap diamond plate is better than india/crystolon/ceramic alumina stones. I bought some $7 diamond plates off eBay and they've displaced all my other sharpening stones. No reason not to go with diamond now IMO.

Where is that chart from? There are a lot of puzzlers in there. Yes to A2 and Super Blue? No to CTS 20CP, but yes to CPM S90V? Different answers to CTS 204P, M390, and CPM 20CV? Seems a little simplistic, not to say inaccurate.

[The Meat man]

Duplicate post

[Evil D]

I wouldn't go without diamonds even with the lowest and softest steel they sell. It just speeds up the process so much.

[tonijedi]

I wouldn't go without diamonds even with the lowest and softest steel they sell. It just speeds up the process so much.

True!

[p_atrick]

I guess I should have added to my post above, that there are many ways to sharpen. Find a technique and set of tools that works best for you. Sharpening can be quite personal, and I don't think there are many objective truths.

[Ric]

Theoretically you need no diamonds to sharpen blades. The synthetic stones can do it.
BUT diamonds are much faster, much much faster.

With supersteel you should not get them too dull. Then you do not urgently need diamonds.

But I recommend to have at least 1 diamond stone.

I use cheap diamond plates for the kitchen and reprofiling.

[JD Spydo]

What I like most about my diamond sharpening equipment is that you can get rapid stock removal on a really beat up blade edge. But as far as most finish work goes I've never encountered any blade steel I couldn't put a great finish on with any of Spyderco's great ceramic stones. I actually like the final finish you get with ceramic much better than I do with even the finest grit diamond benchstones.

I even have a couple of the older, super smooth, super hard novaculite stones ( hard Arkansas Stone). Novaculite has a really nice polishing effect to it and can put a super wicked edge on most steels. But as far as reprofiling goes and setting up for applying the final finish diamond is the best way to go. And for rapid stock removal CBN ( cubic boron nitride) is a close second to diamond.

[blues]

As a general rule, 4% and higher vanadium carbide content is a good go by to use when diamond will be beneficial...though I've sharpened (not reprofiled) Maxamet and K390 on Spyderco bench stones and Sharpmaker.

[Vaugith]

Why do we NEED diamonds to sharpen anything? Carbides are very hard. Harder than any abrasives besides CBN or Diamonds. However the steel matrix that holds the Carbides is softer than the more common abrasives that we use such as AlOx or SiC. If you are just trying to cut the steel to set a bevel, you'll be using coarse or medium grit stones that will have no issue scooping off steel and the Carbides will come off right with it, just like small hard chocolate chunks coming out in a scoop of rocky road ice cream. You don't need diamonds or CBN until you want to cut the individual Carbides, which would be when your abrasive grit size approaches the size of the Carbides. For powdered metallurgy steels this is often around 5 micron size, or 3k grit. Some carbides are smaller, such as in Cruwear or LC200N, and some are larger, such as in D2 or N690. As long as you are using an abrasive size larger than the carbide size you won't see a benefit from CBN or Diamonds. In fact in careful observation when comparing the two you'll see that these very hard abrasive particles (Diamond, CBN) leave deeper scratches that are more difficult to get out later in your progression. Many people claim diamonds are faster cutting on difficult to grind steels. I challenge them to give a low grit soft stone a go, like a Sigma SPS II (240 or 1k, NOT the 400) or even a simple King stone. I sharpened Rex45, S90V, cruwear, etc on a king deluxe 1k many times and saw fantastic results. In my experience these soft stones hog off metal quicker than diamond plates. Here's why: the soft stones constantly release grit, which exposes fresh sharp grit underneath. Sharp cuts. Coated diamond plates on the other hand dull over time and do not have fresh sharp diamonds under the top layer to expose, they only have the one layer. Most people are using coated plates like the diamond sharpmaker rods, atoma, DMT, KME gold, etc. but vitrified or bonded diamonds are another matter. They are very costly. I don't think you'll see a benefit from them over a simple soft stone anyway due to how hard they are bonded, but I haven't used them myself so I'll back off there. All I can say is that Sigmas cut anything FAST.

[Sharp Guy]

Even cheap diamond plate is better than india/crystolon/ceramic alumina stones. I bought some $7 diamond plates off eBay and they've displaced all my other sharpening stones. No reason not to go with diamond now IMO.

Where is that chart from? There are a lot of puzzlers in there. Yes to A2 and Super Blue? No to CTS 20CP, but yes to CPM S90V? Different answers to CTS 204P, M390, and CPM 20CV? Seems a little simplistic, not to say inaccurate.

Agreed, there are some puzzlers on there. Super Blue?, HAP40?, Cru-Wear? Not saying you can't use diamonds on those but it's not necessary. I've used SiC to reprofile most of the steels in that list. Maxamet, S110V, and S90V (maybe) are the only steels that I felt that diamonds were necessary

[Granoo Fink]

Why do we NEED diamonds to sharpen anything? Carbides are very hard. Harder than any abrasives besides CBN or Diamonds. However the steel matrix that holds the Carbides is softer than the more common abrasives that we use such as AlOx or SiC. If you are just trying to cut the steel to set a bevel, you'll be using coarse or medium grit stones that will have no issue scooping off steel and the Carbides will come off right with it, just like small hard chocolate chunks coming out in a scoop of rocky road ice cream. You don't need diamonds or CBN until you want to cut the individual Carbides, which would be when your abrasive grit size approaches the size of the Carbides. For powdered metallurgy steels this is often around 5 micron size, or 3k grit. Some carbides are smaller, such as in Cruwear or LC200N, and some are larger, such as in D2 or N690. As long as you are using an abrasive size larger than the carbide size you won't see a benefit from CBN or Diamonds. In fact in careful observation when comparing the two you'll see that these very hard abrasive particles (Diamond, CBN) leave deeper scratches that are more difficult to get out later in your progression. Many people claim diamonds are faster cutting on difficult to grind steels. I challenge them to give a low grit soft stone a go, like a Sigma SPS II (240 or 1k, NOT the 400) or even a simple King stone. I sharpened Rex45, S90V, cruwear, etc on a king deluxe 1k many times and saw fantastic results. In my experience these soft stones hog off metal quicker than diamond plates. Here's why: the soft stones constantly release grit, which exposes fresh sharp grit underneath. Sharp cuts. Coated diamond plates on the other hand dull over time and do not have fresh sharp diamonds under the top layer to expose, they only have the one layer. Vitrified or bonded is another matter but are costly and most people are using coated plates like the diamond sharpmaker rods, atoma, DMT, KME gold, etc. I don't think you'll see a benefit from them over a simple soft stone anyway due to how hard they are bonded, but I haven't used them myself so I'll back off there. All I can say is that Sigmas cut anything FAST.

True

[jpm2]

I’ve heard there’s many roads to sharp.
In general, mine is 100 grit Norton sic, 300 grit Norton sic, 1200 grit ezelap diamond, 3k DMT diamond.

I can get any steel reasonably sharp with sic, but get my longest lasting ones finished with diamond, regardless of the finishing grit.

The only blades I don’t finish with diamond are my straight razors, but they are a completely different animal and used for 1 thing only.

[S-3 ranch]

After watching BBB’s maxemet video and Homeslice on YouTube
https://youtu.be/zDJ4lEnbl28
I have to consider myself unable to tackle the “ super steel “ blades
Unless I invest in a superior guided contraption or some type of expensive stones
It’s just to risky to chip out and damage the steel!
With that conclusion what is the maximum steel a slightly above average sharpening skill person should consider?
Vasco? Crew ? 20cv ?
As I can foresee me being to ambitious without a expensive guide system

[Zive]

If you decide to up your sharpening equipment, I'd take a look at the King Neo 800, which is sold by Deadbox Hero (or Triple B, never know which to use when referring to Shawn). My understanding is that diamond products like DMT cut much deeper because diamonds are electroplated to the surface. The diamonds wear over time and no longer cut so deep, and they will eventually flake off. You could go the super vitrified route (also sold by Shawn, currently out of stock) but man are those expensive. You would get the horsepower of diamonds without the deep scratches. Those stones should hold up much longer as well. The King Neo gives you silicon carbide in a splash 'n go package. That should tide you over (the Neo handles high-hardness ZDP with ease). Not sure how the Neo would hold up against something like Maxamet though.

Seconded. Have good results with a King Neo 800 and my K390 Endela. Sure, takes a bit longer than VG-10, but it’s still an effective sharpening medium for high vanadium steels.