FRN Take Over...

[Bill1170]

Regarding why some of the higher end Spydercos are available in G-10 but not in FRN, I specifically recall Sal stating that the sales volume wasn’t high enough to justify the cost of making FRN molds for those models.

[Wartstein]

Regarding why some of the higher end Spydercos are available in G-10 but not in FRN, I specifically recall Sal stating that the sales volume wasn’t high enough to justify the cost of making FRN molds for those models.

Interesting info, thanks! :)

This is actually what I just assumed in my reply to Gtscotty as one of two reasons why Spydercos highest end models never come in FRN:

1.) Sales volume too low, so FRN molds would not pay for themselves

2.) People (sadly...) just got accustomed to that "FRN" and "really high end" don´t match, regardless of the actual build quality and fit and finish. I am pretty sure a 350$ Spydie in FRN would not sell well, no matter if it is the "greatest model ever" in function, design and quality... I can almost "hear" how youtube "reviewers" and the like would rave about that an FRN knife just cannot be worth that money (which, tbh, has some truth to it in that sense that (as soon as the molds are there) FRN is certainly cheaper indeed for the manufacturer than Micarta, G10, cf)

- I am 100 positive that the reason why Spyderco uses rather G10 than FRN on there high end models is not a technical/functional one.

I personally still think when calculating all aspects I can think of, that FRN is in no way "worse" than G10, but for me even better,
Actually I am lucky that usually the FRN versions of Spydies cost less than their G10 siblings. I honestly would always pay MORE to get a model in FRN than in G10, so good thing for me that is´s the other way round...

[Evil D]

Is it really a subjective opinion that FRN knives are cheaper though? They literally are... cutting cost is one of and possibly the biggest contributing factors in FRN production, it cuts cost on so many levels from manufacturing time to machining and finishing costs. Once the cost of the mold is paid for, for example like a Delica 4 that's been out for a decade, the profit has to be significantly higher than a G10 version of the same knife/steel.

I don't think it's wrong to think of FRN as cheaper models because that's literally what they are. The problem is relating "cheap" with "low quality" that people get confused with. Though they are often very similar, I don't think that's the case here.

[Ngati Pom]

Yes, economy of scale is mistaken for lower quality therefore cheapness equals inferior materials.
When actually both materials are equally valid in their usage and value.

[Chuck James]

I'd bee good with FRN if it came with a steel liner.

Take the steel liner out and well.....It's just another plastic knife.

[Notsurewhy]

Is it really a subjective opinion that FRN knives are cheaper though? They literally are... cutting cost is one of and possibly the biggest contributing factors in FRN production, it cuts cost on so many levels from manufacturing time to machining and finishing costs. Once the cost of the mold is paid for, for example like a Delica 4 that's been out for a decade, the profit has to be significantly higher than a G10 version of the same knife/steel.

I don't think it's wrong to think of FRN as cheaper models because that's literally what they are. The problem is relating "cheap" with "low quality" that people get confused with. Though they are often very similar, I don't think that's the case here.

I think inexpensive might be a better term than cheap here. They both imply less cost, but cheap also has negative connotations regarding quality. Frn is inexpensive, but I wouldn't call it cheap.

[Bill1170]

Regarding why some of the higher end Spydercos are available in G-10 but not in FRN, I specifically recall Sal stating that the sales volume wasn’t high enough to justify the cost of making FRN molds for those models.

Interesting info, thanks! :)

This is actually what I just assumed in my reply to Gtscotty as one of two reasons why Spydercos highest end models never come in FRN:

1.) Sales volume too low, so FRN molds would not pay for themselves

2.) People (sadly...) just got accustomed to that "FRN" and "really high end" don´t match, regardless of the actual build quality and fit and finish. I am pretty sure a 350$ Spydie in FRN would not sell well, no matter if it is the "greatest model ever" in function, design and quality... I can almost "hear" how youtube "reviewers" and the like would rave about that an FRN knife just cannot be worth that money (which, tbh, has some truth to it in that sense that (as soon as the molds are there) FRN is certainly cheaper indeed for the manufacturer than Micarta, G10, cf)

- I am 100 positive that the reason why Spyderco uses rather G10 than FRN on there high end models is not a technical/functional one.

I personally still think when calculating all aspects I can think of, that FRN is in no way "worse" than G10, but for me even better,
Actually I am lucky that usually the FRN versions of Spydies cost less than their G10 siblings. I honestly would always pay MORE to get a model in FRN than in G10, so good thing for me that is´s the other way round...

If I could get a Caribbean with a FRN handle featuring bidirectional texturing, rounded edges, and a mild palm swell, I certainly would. I would prefer it to my G-10 scales.

[Evil D]

If I could get a Caribbean with a FRN handle featuring bidirectional texturing, rounded edges, and a mild palm swell, I certainly would. I would prefer it to my G-10 scales.

Without a doubt, especially with the palm swells. If it turns out anything like my Jumpmaster 2 it'll feel amazing and only adds a negligible amount of thickness for a massive increase in ergonomics.

[notfixingit]

Looking at a cross section of my Spydercos below, it seems to me that G-10 or FRN, they are all pretty slab-ish. Most of the contouring on the FRN is to break edges and add texturing, which is value added, but it's not like there is a huge difference in the shape of most Spyderco FRN scales and G-10 scales. In my opinion the contouring on the Seki models is the best, but maybe more will be done across the board in the future (hopefully the FRN Shaman isn't slabby).

For some models, 'slabish' / flat is the way to go, to keep the knife as unobtrusive in the pocket as possible. The Delica and Endura come to mind here.

But I agree, for other models, it would be good to see Spyderco experiment more with '3D' grip designs that incorporate some sculpting / palm swells etc into the traditional flat side the handle.

The Spyderco Native III, for example, incorporated 3D sculpting into the FRN design. Native III is the Blue one:





I think going more heavily into 3D ergonomics is one way to make FRN seem more premium / less of a step down then G10.

A great and successful 3D ergonomics design is the Walther PPQ. Whereas the Glock is basically a 2D slab handle design, the PPQ incorporates a lot of curvature and palm swell in the side of the handle, rather then just the front and backstap of the grip. If you go to a gun shop and hold the two side by side, the PPQ's ergos are night and day superior, despite both pistols being polymer framed striker fired 9x19's.

Ergos can be very dependent on a person's hand though making things difficult for manufacturers, I agree the PDP is way more ergonomic than a Glock, the HK VP9L for example is more ergonomic at least to me because I have large thumb muscle in my palm and on the PDP it puts my shot slightly left.

I agree, I would love to see if FRN could be made to look at least as good if not better than G10

[Wartstein]

Ergos can be very dependent on a person's hand though making things difficult for manufacturers, I agree the PDP is way more ergonomic than a Glock, the HK VP9L for example is more ergonomic at least to me because I have large thumb muscle in my palm and on the PDP it puts my shot slightly left.

I agree, I would love to see if FRN could be made to look at least as good if not better than G10

Very interesting - never thought of that actually the amount of thumb muscle could make a difference in how ergos are perceived... Looking at my palm I probably have a rather large thumb muscle too, mainly due to climbing.

/ What do mean by "FRN could be made to look at least as good as G10"?
Honest question, in what ways does G10 "look better" than FRN for you? And what would have to be changed in FRN to make it look better for you?

I think concerning texturing (or LESS texturing) FRN could probably made to look like G10 - but then it would loose one of its main advantages, which for me exactly IS the (bidirectional) texturing...

[notfixingit]

Ergos can be very dependent on a person's hand though making things difficult for manufacturers, I agree the PDP is way more ergonomic than a Glock, the HK VP9L for example is more ergonomic at least to me because I have large thumb muscle in my palm and on the PDP it puts my shot slightly left.

I agree, I would love to see if FRN could be made to look at least as good if not better than G10

Very interesting - never thought of that actually the amount of thumb muscle could make a difference in how ergos are perceived... Looking at my palm I probably have a rather large thumb muscle too, mainly due to climbing.

/ What do mean by "FRN could be made to look at least as good as G10"?
Honest question, in what ways does G10 "look better" than FRN for you? And what would have to be changed in FRN to make it look better for you?

I think concerning texturing (or LESS texturing) FRN could probably made to look like G10 - but then it would loose one of its main advantages, which for me exactly IS the (bidirectional) texturing...

Yeah when you squeeze or at least for me, both my trigger finger and thumb muscle flex, causing the slight shift. So the VP9 with large swell plate on the palm side and a small backplate solves my issue. I actually just made the correction myself for years but was lucky to get an instructor a few years back that pointed out my issue during our yearly training at work.

As for the FRN, I think your right, it's texture.. I have a yellow Assist Salt that doesn't look or feel cheap but my Manix 2 LW sure does and while I'm mostly ok with the Para 3 LW, the smooth shiny part reminds me of Tupperware (old reference?) Lol

Something I had not really considered is I really enjoy customizing my knifes, if I couldn't, I would probably only own 6-10 knifes total instead of the 100+. FRN knifes at least for now are not really customizable outside of pocket clip. Although I guess in time, someone could create a mold of FRN scales and use that to produce alternative colors etc maybe? Don't get me started on riveted ones that can't even take apart to clean :)

[Gtscotty]

Regarding why some of the higher end Spydercos are available in G-10 but not in FRN, I specifically recall Sal stating that the sales volume wasn’t high enough to justify the cost of making FRN molds for those models.

Interesting info, thanks! :)

This is actually what I just assumed in my reply to Gtscotty as one of two reasons why Spydercos highest end models never come in FRN:

1.) Sales volume too low, so FRN molds would not pay for themselves

2.) People (sadly...) just got accustomed to that "FRN" and "really high end" don´t match, regardless of the actual build quality and fit and finish. I am pretty sure a 350$ Spydie in FRN would not sell well, no matter if it is the "greatest model ever" in function, design and quality... I can almost "hear" how youtube "reviewers" and the like would rave about that an FRN knife just cannot be worth that money (which, tbh, has some truth to it in that sense that (as soon as the molds are there) FRN is certainly cheaper indeed for the manufacturer than Micarta, G10, cf)

- I am 100 positive that the reason why Spyderco uses rather G10 than FRN on there high end models is not a technical/functional one.

I personally still think when calculating all aspects I can think of, that FRN is in no way "worse" than G10, but for me even better,
Actually I am lucky that usually the FRN versions of Spydies cost less than their G10 siblings. I honestly would always pay MORE to get a model in FRN than in G10, so good thing for me that is´s the other way round...

This is obviously not going to be a productive line of discussion as you seem to take a pretty inflexible and myopic view of handle material "superiority", but once more for clarity.

As previously stated, I think both FRN and G-10 are strong enough for structural use in knives. G-10 is a stiffer material than Nylon 6/6 30%, period. In my opinion, given the designs I have that use just G-10 or just FRN, that makes the G-10 feel less flexy, and also allows for the adjustment for a smoother pivot with minimum blade play. I believe G-10/FRN + liners is superior to either alone for these same reasons. Of course design is critical to the final knife performance, but these kinds of subjective observations play a big part in the consumer assessment of the quality of a knife.

In a business transaction, the consumer decides what "value" is, even though FRN is a fine functional material, consumers on the whole have decided that other materials such as G-10, Ti, Micarta, etc provide more value and thus justify a higher price. Spyderco may price they're knives according to a cost plus margin model, but they do not decide what "value" is, the consumer does and you can look across all manufactures lineups to see where FRN tends to fall.

Again, FRN is a fine material solution, and a great way to make reasonably priced knives. But the market seems to disagree with you on your assessment of FRNs compete superiority as a scale/handle material. You can dismiss all the folks that prefer other handle materials as conditioned by manufacturers or YouTube influencers, but you must understand that any theory you have that requires you to classify large groups of dissenters is ignorant, brainwashed, or possessed of an inferior level of understanding to your own, needs some work.

Also the only reason I addressed the strength of G-10 vs Nylon 6/6 30%, was too correct your erroneous statement that the latter was a stronger material. I don't really think that the higher strength of G-10 is a reason for it's use in higher end knives, although I do think it's higher stiffness gives a better feel in some applications.

[Gtscotty]

Looking at a cross section of my Spydercos below, it seems to me that G-10 or FRN, they are all pretty slab-ish. Most of the contouring on the FRN is to break edges and add texturing, which is value added, but it's not like there is a huge difference in the shape of most Spyderco FRN scales and G-10 scales. In my opinion the contouring on the Seki models is the best, but maybe more will be done across the board in the future (hopefully the FRN Shaman isn't slabby).

For some models, 'slabish' / flat is the way to go, to keep the knife as unobtrusive in the pocket as possible. The Delica and Endura come to mind here.

But I agree, for other models, it would be good to see Spyderco experiment more with '3D' grip designs that incorporate some sculpting / palm swells etc into the traditional flat side the handle.

The Spyderco Native III, for example, incorporated 3D sculpting into the FRN design. Native III is the Blue one:





I think going more heavily into 3D ergonomics is one way to make FRN seem more premium / less of a step down then G10.

A great and successful 3D ergonomics design is the Walther PPQ. Whereas the Glock is basically a 2D slab handle design, the PPQ incorporates a lot of curvature and palm swell in the side of the handle, rather then just the front and backstap of the grip. If you go to a gun shop and hold the two side by side, the PPQ's ergos are night and day superior, despite both pistols being polymer framed striker fired 9x19's.

You got me there, I have found Glocks to be easy to shoot well, with a little practice, even though they are as shapely and comfortable as a 2x4. I have trended more towards M&Ps in recent years and their more sculpted grip profile with interchangeable palm swells. They are certainly more comfortable, but I'm not sure I shoot them better. My Glocks are kind of like my Native 5s, blocky but functional.

Here are some of my favorite FRN handles ( keeping it knife related with micarta and PLA handles at the top!)



In terms of subjective feel, I'd rate Micarta as a couple steps up from FRN, and PLA a couple steps down (but the PLA scales did only cost ~$0.70 so...

[Airlsee]

Here are some of my favorite FRN handles ( keeping it knife related with micarta and PLA handles at the top!)

A couple of my favorite plastics at the moment...ergonomically speaking.

[JD Spydo]

I feel g10 feels better in the hand, doesn't collect dirt and grime like the FRN pattern does.

I'm with you 1000% on that one Salty Dog The more G-10 handled models I get the more of them I want. I like G-10 a lot better than I do FRN. And I actually kind of like Spyderco's FRN material and I own a few. I own 6 of the Spyderhawk model all with FRN handles but I most certainly would like it far better if that model had G-10 scales instead.

Oh FRN has it's place to be sure. But for me G-10, Micarta and Titanium are the 3 handle materials that top my list. But on the other hand I would never turn down a great design with an FRN handle either.

[Cricket Bite]

I have come not to like G10. I like the smooth G10 on the Pattadese but that texture is the exception for G10 and not the norm. FRN for me is enough what I need it to be but is lighter and cheaper. FRN is textured can contoured better than most G10 (IMHO) (although the Shaman is bucking this trend). I do like micarta. More of a pleasant feel in hand. I always wondered why G10 was so popular. I guess I am the weird one:)

[mark greenman]

Looking at a cross section of my Spydercos below, it seems to me that G-10 or FRN, they are all pretty slab-ish. Most of the contouring on the FRN is to break edges and add texturing, which is value added, but it's not like there is a huge difference in the shape of most Spyderco FRN scales and G-10 scales. In my opinion the contouring on the Seki models is the best, but maybe more will be done across the board in the future (hopefully the FRN Shaman isn't slabby).

For some models, 'slabish' / flat is the way to go, to keep the knife as unobtrusive in the pocket as possible. The Delica and Endura come to mind here.

But I agree, for other models, it would be good to see Spyderco experiment more with '3D' grip designs that incorporate some sculpting / palm swells etc into the traditional flat side the handle.

The Spyderco Native III, for example, incorporated 3D sculpting into the FRN design. Native III is the Blue one:





I think going more heavily into 3D ergonomics is one way to make FRN seem more premium / less of a step down then G10.

A great and successful 3D ergonomics design is the Walther PPQ. Whereas the Glock is basically a 2D slab handle design, the PPQ incorporates a lot of curvature and palm swell in the side of the handle, rather then just the front and backstap of the grip. If you go to a gun shop and hold the two side by side, the PPQ's ergos are night and day superior, despite both pistols being polymer framed striker fired 9x19's.

Ergos can be very dependent on a person's hand though making things difficult for manufacturers, I agree the PDP is way more ergonomic than a Glock, the HK VP9L for example is more ergonomic at least to me because I have large thumb muscle in my palm and on the PDP it puts my shot slightly left.

I agree, I would love to see if FRN could be made to look at least as good if not better than G10

Yes, I think ergonomic hand design is probably one of the most challenging ergonomic fields, as theres so many variables in the hand.



Spyderco is definitely the best in the business when it comes to ergonomics; frankly I think many pistol designers would do well to study Spyderco for tips, especially the use of bidirectional or similar patterns for traction on polymer pistol grips.

[Evil D]

Spyderco is definitely the best in the business when it comes to ergonomics; frankly I think many pistol designers would do well to study Spyderco for tips, especially the use of bidirectional or similar patterns for traction on polymer pistol grips.

Funny, I was following a company on Facebook that does laser engraving on all sorts of things and a lot of handgun engraving similar to stippling but in all kinds of cool patterns. I had spoke with them several times about different jobs and they always responded. I got the idea of having a Glock laser engraved with Spyderco's bidirectional texture so I messaged them about it with a pic and they wouldn't even reply. They saw the message but never got back to me about it. I didn't push the issue but it's still an idea I'd like to look into.

[mark greenman]

You got me there, I have found Glocks to be easy to shoot well, with a little practice, even though they are as shapely and comfortable as a 2x4. I have trended more towards M&Ps in recent years and their more sculpted grip profile with interchangeable palm swells. They are certainly more comfortable, but I'm not sure I shoot them better. My Glocks are kind of like my Native 5s, blocky but functional.

Yes, I'd say 90% of the rounds I've sent down range have been with Glocks...in spite of the ergonomics. Almost every company that tries to improve upon the Glock succeeds...then introduces some terrible design defect that ruins it.

The Walther PPQ for example has better ergos, a world class trigger, is more mechanically accurate, and is comparably priced to the Glock.

Yet somehow Walther managed to make their 9mm have comparable recoil / muzzle flip to a .40 cal. Just a much snappier impulse then the Glock, even though they are basically the same weight.

When I had the PPQ, I was firing these steel case russian rounds (back in the golden years when 9x19 was $0.14 a round aka 2018) and I thought they must be some overrun of the 9x19 +p++ russian military ammo, bc they had a large muzzle flash and the recoil in the PPQ was so brisk. Sent some to my buddy to chronograph... 115gr @ 1075fps, aka 115gr subsonic. So not only not "+p++" but well below standard pressure :rolleyes: Needless to say the PPQ was put up for sale shortly after. But the ergos were fantastic.

I haven't gotten to try the M&P but I hear the new 2.0 is nice.

[mark greenman]

Spyderco is definitely the best in the business when it comes to ergonomics; frankly I think many pistol designers would do well to study Spyderco for tips, especially the use of bidirectional or similar patterns for traction on polymer pistol grips.

Funny, I was following a company on Facebook that does laser engraving on all sorts of things and a lot of handgun engraving similar to stippling but in all kinds of cool patterns. I had spoke with them several times about different jobs and they always responded. I got the idea of having a Glock laser engraved with Spyderco's bidirectional texture so I messaged them about it with a pic and they wouldn't even reply. They saw the message but never got back to me about it. I didn't push the issue but it's still an idea I'd like to look into.

Hah, great minds think alike! I suspect they were worried about patent / trademark issues with trying to replicate it.

I do think it would be worth Spyderco looking into licensing their bi-directional pattern to the firearms market. It seems perfect for polymer pistols, in that is high traction but not abrasive / harsh on the skin. It would be an especially good pattern for the front and backstraps of the pistol.