Trying to understand the attributes of negative blade rake.

[vivi]

Has the angle changed much on the Police over the years? From photos, it seems they had less negative angle way before the handle change and re-design.

I think you're right. First two gens had the least negative angle, then the 3, and finally the current gen has the most.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=FuDiA_RuQmA

That gives a good look at 3 vs 4.

[sal]

Thanx Vivi,

Interesting information.

The original Police model was a request from some LEO's asking for the serrated mariner model, but with a point. The first Police model was stainless, G-2 blade (Gin 1) hollow ground. I had to thought to call it "LaSal" but decided that it was too egocentric, and we decided on engraving "P.I.G". on the blade, Actually it was Pride, Integrity and Guts, but the PIG was more pronounced. We made 2400 in left and right hand models.

Since I liked 4" blades as general work knives (influenced by the Buck 110 which I purchased when it first came out, a beautiful design). That was when I "adopted" the Police model more as "My ideal folder". I started to add belly and over the years of using and testing, the Police 4 is the most refined that I've been able to design at this time. The goal is "No more than necessary and no let than perfect". The platform must be highly functional regardless of steel used. light weight, very high performance, adaptable to most hands (that like a large knife), and most steels.

So the negative angle has been there since the beginning (Police 1 in 1984) and Eric and I have been refining the designs as we learn more about ergos, materials and our customers preferences.

Hope that helps.

sal

[Grizzly]

Thanks everyone for sharing. I've enjoyed learning more about the larger knives offered by Spyderco. I'm still a bit amazed at how my 100 pound daughter loves her Endura and how odd it felt in my hands. She though, didn't grow up with mostly straight knives or knives that had mildly negative angles. I imagine the longer length makes that angle way more noticeable or obvious than on a shorter bladed knife.

[Fireman]

The Wegner with its NBA and sausage handle is excellent in the ergo department. In the Philippino grip, the tip was pointed straight out without bending the wrist giving more power to a thrust I would imagine. I think the Wegner is worthy of a reprisal and refresh like the pro hunter version in micarta or frame lock.

[Evil D]

Thanks everyone for sharing. I've enjoyed learning more about the larger knives offered by Spyderco. I'm still a bit amazed at how my 100 pound daughter loves her Endura and how odd it felt in my hands. She though, didn't grow up with mostly straight knives or knives that had mildly negative angles. I imagine the longer length makes that angle way more noticeable or obvious than on a shorter bladed knife.

I probably grew up with the same knives as you. I remember having a couple Cass slip joints and so many Buck 110's they may as well have come in cereal boxes. The blade angle thing never really occurred to me until after a few years of using Spyderco knives, and I think it was the Military that first opened my eyes to it and the more I used it the more I appreciated it.

Size is always an interesting topic. If you hand a person a 10 inch chef's knife and ask them to cut up a tomato they won't think twice about the size of the knife but if you pull out a 4 inch blade folder that same person acts like you just pulled a machete out of your pocket.

[Notsurewhy]

Thanks everyone for sharing. I've enjoyed learning more about the larger knives offered by Spyderco. I'm still a bit amazed at how my 100 pound daughter loves her Endura and how odd it felt in my hands. She though, didn't grow up with mostly straight knives or knives that had mildly negative angles. I imagine the longer length makes that angle way more noticeable or obvious than on a shorter bladed knife.

I probably grew up with the same knives as you. I remember having a couple Cass slip joints and so many Buck 110's they may as well have come in cereal boxes. The blade angle thing never really occurred to me until after a few years of using Spyderco knives, and I think it was the Military that first opened my eyes to it and the more I used it the more I appreciated it.

Size is always an interesting topic. If you hand a person a 10 inch chef's knife and ask them to cut up a tomato they won't think twice about the size of the knife but if you pull out a 4 inch blade folder that same person acts like you just pulled a machete out of your pocket.

This is such a weird phenomenon. My wife has zero issues using a chefs knife but if I hand her a folder bigger than her dragonflies, it's "too big". I'm talking a native 5 lightweight here, not a police or anything.

[Brock O Lee]

The negative blade angle on the Military is one of it’s most outstanding features IMO. I like the new kid on the block, the Native Chief, but I miss that negative blade angle.

[Sharp Guy]

Negative blade angle is one of the reasons I like the Sliverax so much

[James Y]

Interesting thread. Before reading it, I never even heard of the term ‘negative blade angle’. So am I to understand that examples of knives WITHOUT negative blade angles would be standard SAKs and the Emerson A-100?

Jim

[Evil D]

Interesting thread. Before reading it, I never even heard of the term ‘negative blade angle’. So am I to understand that examples of knives WITHOUT negative blade angles would be standard SAKs and the Emerson A-100?

Jim

SAK is a perfect example, or a Lum Tanto.

[Grizzly]

Interesting thread. Before reading it, I never even heard of the term ‘negative blade angle’. So am I to understand that examples of knives WITHOUT negative blade angles would be standard SAKs and the Emerson A-100?

Jim

Yes, they would be neutral angle. I had to search the Emerson A-100 to see. When I did, I noticed the flipper disc on top of the blade that is screwed into the spine of the blade. Years ago I had a Katz folder made that way. One day i locked myself out of my Astro van and the only thing I had to pry open that side window was my knife. So i pried with it enough that I got the coat hanger in there to work the latch, but at that moment the blade snapped. I knew it might and used it anyway. But where it snapped was right along the line where the spine had been drilled for the screw that attached the flipper disc to open the blade. I'm no engineer, but I would imagine that is somewhat like scoring glass so as to break it along the score line. I'd bet that if that blade had not been drilled that way, it might not have snapped that day. That is one feature I always shy away from whenever I see it now. I still have that snapped blade in my tool box. I really missed that little folder since it had a bit of recurve to the blade and i always did enjoy using it. But, I would not replace it because of what I believed to be a weakness in that design.

[James Y]

Thanks, Evil D.

Hi, Grizzly.

I actually don’t like thumb disks at all. I do own some Emersons, but I haven’t bought one since maybe 2002 or 2003. I never did own an A-100, but have been aware of it. Nowadays, the only one-hand knives I buy are Spyderco. The round hole is simply a superior system, and I do agree that the area that is drilled for thumb disks creates a weak point. I’ve also heard of someone losing their thumb disk; it somehow became unscrewed and ‘disappeared’.

I’ve even seen photos someone posted on a CRK forum of a crack in their blade around the thumb stud. I’m no expert on thumb studs, but I imagine that thumb studs are held in their holes with tension/friction, which I suspect, under certain (extremely rare) instances, can create a stressor in the blade around the stud.

Jim

[mark greenman]

Interesting thread. Before reading it, I never even heard of the term ‘negative blade angle’. So am I to understand that examples of knives WITHOUT negative blade angles would be standard SAKs and the Emerson A-100?

Jim

Heres an example of a straight / neutral blade - the Protech Godson - which is a modern version of the classic Italian Stiletto.

Behind it is the Spyderco Ayoob - one of the most extreme Negative Blade Angle (NBA) models Spyderco has ever produced.

If we imagine pull cutting (say, slicing open a box or slicing through carpet) you can see how much more you need to bend the wrist to put a straight knife's edge into the material.

[James Y]

Interesting thread. Before reading it, I never even heard of the term ‘negative blade angle’. So am I to understand that examples of knives WITHOUT negative blade angles would be standard SAKs and the Emerson A-100?

Jim

Heres an example of a straight / neutral blade - the Protech Godson - which is a modern version of the classic Italian Stiletto.

Behind it is the Spyderco Ayoob - one of the most extreme Negative Blade Angle (NBA) models Spyderco has ever produced.

If we imagine pull cutting (say, slicing open a box or slicing through carpet) you can see how much more you need to bend the wrist to put a straight knife's edge into the material.

Thanks, Mark. Yeah, I was figuring that’s what it meant. Great examples, BTW.

Jim

[Ed Schempp]

I’ll try again I got timed out on this post on my first go around, here’s my list!
1) better blade purchase
2) less wrist action more grip durability!
3) large muscle groups of forearm and shoulder do the work!
4) in reverse grip edge out blade is 90 degrees to forearm for better puncturing!
5) in reverse grip in a punch slash motion blade is best position for purchase!
6) in a thrust motion you have mass of arm behind the line of force not beside where it can slip.
7) the”C” allows for more torsion on the piece verses trying to twist a straight piece.
These are most of the reasons that I incorporate this negative blade angle into my designs…Ed Schempp

[nerdlock]

Interesting thread. Before reading it, I never even heard of the term ‘negative blade angle’. So am I to understand that examples of knives WITHOUT negative blade angles would be standard SAKs and the Emerson A-100?

Jim

Heres an example of a straight / neutral blade - the Protech Godson - which is a modern version of the classic Italian Stiletto.

Behind it is the Spyderco Ayoob - one of the most extreme Negative Blade Angle (NBA) models Spyderco has ever produced.

If we imagine pull cutting (say, slicing open a box or slicing through carpet) you can see how much more you need to bend the wrist to put a straight knife's edge into the material.

Wow, good example, thanks! This makes me excited for the future Ayoob...an SE blade in a wear resistant steel at that angle would really cut through heavy materials like carpet with ease!

[Cl1ff]

I’ll try again I got timed out on this post on my first go around, here’s my list!
1) better blade purchase
2) less wrist action more grip durability!
3) large muscle groups of forearm and shoulder do the work!
4) in reverse grip edge out blade is 90 degrees to forearm for better puncturing!
5) in reverse grip in a punch slash motion blade is best position for purchase!
6) in a thrust motion you have mass of arm behind the line of force not beside where it can slip.
7) the”C” allows for more torsion on the piece verses trying to twist a straight piece.
These are most of the reasons that I incorporate this negative blade angle into my designs…Ed Schempp

Woah, it’s handy having a neat and simple list like this to keep in mind!
I’ve been on a designing spree lately and my ideas for many of them are certainly influenced by your knives.

[kodai78]

I think if Sal Glesser and Ed Schempp agree on an nba being desirable that should end the argument. I know that I bought one of Mr. Schempps Bowie’s at SFO a couple of years ago and that is a fantastic knife in hand. I had never given any thought to the blade angle until I bought and used that knife. I don’t always buy a knife for that reason but if I had to choose just one to carry it would influence my decision.