Most Underestimated Steel.

[Matus]

Funny, within high end kitchen knife community VG-10 has a rather bad name - mainly because of a high amount of subpar knives on the western marke (often, but not exclusively from China). The steel is very sensitive to the HT (compared to lower alloyed steels, remember, kitchen knives are mostly made of simpler steels) and requires a rather complicated and thus expensive HT to get most out of it. Subpar HT is resulting in knives that are not enjoyable to sharpen and micro-chip easily.

With that said - I have no experience with VG-10 from Spyderco, so I would certainly not generalize.

[wrdwrght]

I’ll say here what I said earlier but in a way I think is more to the point.

The issue with us, the cognoscenti, is not that we underestimate once famous steels, but that we’re drawn to the newest shiny object and forget in our junkie’s high that the older ones were (and remain) pretty **** good, even good enough to be our only steel.

I refer here not to the affordable (and well-designed) Chinese Spydies that offer serviceable but entry-level steels.

[vivi]

H1.

Why would you say that is? Because it's only good with serrations?

People zone in on one or two attributes and judge the entire steel based on that alone.

H1 is one of the toughest steels I've used, period.

No one seems to discuss toughness when H1 comes up. It is incredibly tough, and when it does deform it tends to roll. When H1 rolls it is incredibly easy to fix.

So that right there is one reason I voted H1. It has incredible toughness that flies under peoples radar.

Obviously its rust proof, which is another nice feature.

It is among the easiest steels to sharpen to a high degree of sharpness, whether you finish at 200 grit, 1,00 grit, or 8,000 grit. It will take a screaming sharp edge effortlessly.

So far it sounds like the perfect steel. 100% rust proof, incredibly tough, extremely easy to sharpen? What's the catch?

Edge holding?

Not nearly as bad as its been made out to be.

Serrated H1 hangs with much higher rated steels in terms of edge holding.

PE does not, but it still is far from useless.

PE H1 will holdan edge aboutas well as 420HC and AUS8 in my experience.

By itself that attribute won't impress anyone here. But coupled with the dream team of properties H1 otherwise displays, I think its a fair trade off for many situations.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/B0 ... geNumber=1 - There's the Buck 110 on Amazon. Over 4,000 five star reviews on a knife with edge holding on par with PE H1. Perspective.

Even with its relatively low end edge holding, PE H1 will cut.

In fact I will issue a challenge to anyone reading this. Take a PE H1 knife and reprofile the edge to 12-15 degrees per side. Once your apex is established, apply an edge in the 200-600 grit range and aim for at least scrape shaving sharp.

Once you've got that edge on your PE H1 knife, see how much cardboard it can cut.

My plain edge Aqua Salt can fill an entire recycling bin before it even thinks about not cutting any more



I've taken PE H1 knives on week long backpacking trips without having to sharpen. I've taken them on two week long bike tours without having to sharpen.

If you cut 8,000' of cardboard every day in a warehouse, sure maxamet would probably work better, but PE H1 is beyond sufficient for most folks EDC needs.

-------------

I'll also second ZDP189. Not only does it have impressive edge holding, but I like how well it sharpens up given the level of edge holding it shows. Very little burring.

[Paraguy]

I hate to say it, but among our little band of brothers and sisters it seems that 8Cr13MoV gets dumped on the most. I'm sure that Sal wouldn't use it if it wasn't worth a darn.

I said underestimated not crappy! :D JK

[Abyss_Fish]

SUPER GOLD TWO (or R2 if you’re a nerd like me)

This stuff deserves its own thread, when heat treated correctly it’s as tough as something like Lc200n, nearly as ductile as 3v (so ease of sharpening and chip resistance,) and with the overall edge retention just below 20cv. Magic magic magic. The only drawback is subpar stainlessness, but it ain’t a carbon steel.

It’s basically tailor made for kitchen knives, and I refuse to buy any general use kitchen knives in anything else.

[GarageBoy]

I just want to know what happened to bg42

Wish someone would do a super gold exclusive, ideally in non laminate

[Paraguy]

I actually don't see where LC200N is underestimated... most knife guys are pretty much aware of it's potential

That's what I was thinking. LC200N gets well deserved respect from most of the knife people I know.

which is interesting because lc200n is a well rounded, user friendly steel not 'Super Mega Power Steel' used for cutting Ar 500 plates in two. :D

[Paraguy]

H1, especially PE, almost nobody in the hobbyist sphere rates the steel properly. There seems to be this idea that as steels advanced; the older steels - and those newer steels with lower relative edge retention - suddenly got worse.

The fact that Rex 121 holds an edge essentially forever, doesn't change the actual performance of H1 or 440c or D2 or S30V.

I like to rate the edge retention of H1 like this

If you cut clean cardboard until it's dull, it's not that great compared to S30V
If you cut dirty cardboard until it's dull, it's pretty well compared to S30V
If you cut wet, dirty cardboard until it's dull, it's better than S30V

Often, I can cut open a bag of concrete or aggregate with my H1 knife and then finish out the day without noticing much cutting ability loss. Something like S30V, 154CM, S35VN at the same task would definitely have more and varied edge damage and I'd probably waste time finding something else to use to cut open the bag or be bothered enough to hone the edge.

I am biased, H1 was on of the first named steels I ever used and over the decades I've been using it I've found it to be one of my favorites.

True.

[Paraguy]

I actually think VG-10 is great in a lot of applications. I'd love to have the kitchen utility knives in VG-10, for example, but I know the price bump would make them non-sellers.

I agree that it is suffering from a 'been there done that' effect among knife people that isn't very fair to it.

People who collect knives don't just buy the same knife over and over again. It makes sense they don't buy the same steel over again. Collecting, in some ways, is kind of greedy: always wanting more and always wanting something better.

[Stuart Ackerman]

440 C and AEB-L...

[Paraguy]

I’ll say here what I said earlier but in a way I think is more to the point.

The issue with us, the cognoscenti, is not that we underestimate once famous steels, but that we’re drawn to the newest shiny object and forget in our junkie’s high that the older ones were (and remain) pretty **** good, even good enough to be our only steel.

I refer here not to the affordable (and well-designed) Chinese Spydies that offer serviceable but entry-level steels.

Have you subscribed to an only steel?

[Paraguy]

H1.

Why would you say that is? Because it's only good with serrations?

People zone in on one or two attributes and judge the entire steel based on that alone.

H1 is one of the toughest steels I've used, period.

No one seems to discuss toughness when H1 comes up. It is incredibly tough, and when it does deform it tends to roll. When H1 rolls it is incredibly easy to fix.

So that right there is one reason I voted H1. It has incredible toughness that flies under peoples radar.

Obviously its rust proof, which is another nice feature.

It is among the easiest steels to sharpen to a high degree of sharpness, whether you finish at 200 grit, 1,00 grit, or 8,000 grit. It will take a screaming sharp edge effortlessly.

So far it sounds like the perfect steel. 100% rust proof, incredibly tough, extremely easy to sharpen? What's the catch?

Edge holding?

Not nearly as bad as its been made out to be.

Serrated H1 hangs with much higher rated steels in terms of edge holding.

PE does not, but it still is far from useless.

PE H1 will holdan edge aboutas well as 420HC and AUS8 in my experience.

By itself that attribute won't impress anyone here. But coupled with the dream team of properties H1 otherwise displays, I think its a fair trade off for many situations.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/B0 ... geNumber=1 - There's the Buck 110 on Amazon. Over 4,000 five star reviews on a knife with edge holding on par with PE H1. Perspective.

Even with its relatively low end edge holding, PE H1 will cut.

In fact I will issue a challenge to anyone reading this. Take a PE H1 knife and reprofile the edge to 12-15 degrees per side. Once your apex is established, apply an edge in the 200-600 grit range and aim for at least scrape shaving sharp.

Once you've got that edge on your PE H1 knife, see how much cardboard it can cut.

My plain edge Aqua Salt can fill an entire recycling bin before it even thinks about not cutting any more



I've taken PE H1 knives on week long backpacking trips without having to sharpen. I've taken them on two week long bike tours without having to sharpen.

If you cut 8,000' of cardboard every day in a warehouse, sure maxamet would probably work better, but PE H1 is beyond sufficient for most folks EDC needs.

-------------

I'll also second ZDP189. Not only does it have impressive edge holding, but I like how well it sharpens up given the level of edge holding it shows. Very little burring.

I have been enlighten.

[spoonrobot]

ZDP is interesting because it’s one of the highest end steels that can be sharpened with normal india and crystolon stones to good effect. Most of the other steels in its class require diamond or CBN to achieve the same results.

[wrdwrght]

I’ll say here what I said earlier but in a way I think is more to the point.

The issue with us, the cognoscenti, is not that we underestimate once famous steels, but that we’re drawn to the newest shiny object and forget in our junkie’s high that the older ones were (and remain) pretty **** good, even good enough to be our only steel.

I refer here not to the affordable (and well-designed) Chinese Spydies that offer serviceable but entry-level steels.

Have you subscribed to an only steel?

Where’s the fun in that?

[M Sea]

H1.

Why would you say that is? Because it's only good with serrations?

People zone in on one or two attributes and judge the entire steel based on that alone.

H1 is one of the toughest steels I've used, period.

No one seems to discuss toughness when H1 comes up. It is incredibly tough, and when it does deform it tends to roll. When H1 rolls it is incredibly easy to fix.

So that right there is one reason I voted H1. It has incredible toughness that flies under peoples radar.

Obviously its rust proof, which is another nice feature.

It is among the easiest steels to sharpen to a high degree of sharpness, whether you finish at 200 grit, 1,00 grit, or 8,000 grit. It will take a screaming sharp edge effortlessly.

So far it sounds like the perfect steel. 100% rust proof, incredibly tough, extremely easy to sharpen? What's the catch?

Edge holding?

Not nearly as bad as its been made out to be.

Serrated H1 hangs with much higher rated steels in terms of edge holding.

PE does not, but it still is far from useless.

PE H1 will holdan edge aboutas well as 420HC and AUS8 in my experience.

By itself that attribute won't impress anyone here. But coupled with the dream team of properties H1 otherwise displays, I think its a fair trade off for many situations.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/B0 ... geNumber=1 - There's the Buck 110 on Amazon. Over 4,000 five star reviews on a knife with edge holding on par with PE H1. Perspective.

Even with its relatively low end edge holding, PE H1 will cut.

In fact I will issue a challenge to anyone reading this. Take a PE H1 knife and reprofile the edge to 12-15 degrees per side. Once your apex is established, apply an edge in the 200-600 grit range and aim for at least scrape shaving sharp.

Once you've got that edge on your PE H1 knife, see how much cardboard it can cut.

My plain edge Aqua Salt can fill an entire recycling bin before it even thinks about not cutting any more



I've taken PE H1 knives on week long backpacking trips without having to sharpen. I've taken them on two week long bike tours without having to sharpen.

If you cut 8,000' of cardboard every day in a warehouse, sure maxamet would probably work better, but PE H1 is beyond sufficient for most folks EDC needs.

-------------

I'll also second ZDP189. Not only does it have impressive edge holding, but I like how well it sharpens up given the level of edge holding it shows. Very little burring.

Well said Vivi, agreed on all “points.” (See what I did there...ha!!)

[skeeg11]

I hate to say it, but among our little band of brothers and sisters it seems that 8Cr13MoV gets dumped on the most. I'm sure that Sal wouldn't use it if it wasn't worth a darn.

I said underestimated not crappy! :D JK

Dumped on.........crappy........I get it now. :D

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89614

[JRinFL]

440 C and AEB-L...

Agreed, I knew I forgot one! 440C can perform quite well and is still a valid choice for many.

[JRinFL]

As to H1, I find some seemingly ascribe magical abilities to the steel. For me it has never stood out in edge holding. Of course, make it thin enough and the geometry will keep it cutting despite the steels shortcomings.

And, yes, I still intend to thin mine out to see if I change my tune.

[Albertaboyscott]

Another vote for zdp-189. Always wished we could have seen some in the Colorado models like the pm2.

[Gtscotty]

I hate to say it, but among our little band of brothers and sisters it seems that 8Cr13MoV gets dumped on the most. I'm sure that Sal wouldn't use it if it wasn't worth a darn.

I said underestimated not crappy! :D JK

Right? I don't see myself ever picking up another 8CR knife.

IME, H1 PE gets fairly maligned, it doesn't rust and that's it, it's easy to sharpen and just as easy to dull. It probably outperforms something like 420j2, but that's not exactly high praise. Not an attractive blend of attributes for me for anything other than snorkeling or diving or something like that, and I'm hoping LC200N makes it totally obsolete for those purposes for me once I get my Salt 2. I would love to see Larrin test the edge retention of an H1 blade at some point (I realize he's a busy dude), I would honestly bet that it stacks in below 420HC from the most recent test series.

As for "underestimated', directly meaning, better in reality than in common perception, I would say S30V. It really is an excellent balance for a lot of uses that has suffered in internet groupthink a bit due to its own ubiquity.