Clad steels and the affects on performance?

[GarageBoy]

I was looking through old posts about clad steels, and it seems to be a polarizing topic - but nonetheless, certain steels from certain factories are going to be only offered in clad form.

I was curious how this directly affects performance.
First, the scratches - yes the SUS410 is soft, but what is the hardness it comes out as? The 420J2 used in the ZDP clad can hit low mid 50s HRC, so they should at least be as scratch resistant as say, a Victorinox Swiss Army knife, right?

Going way back, some noticed that because of the weaker clad steels, the blades will warp in production, or in one case, get bent in use (I'm guessing they behave like bimetal sawzall blades) - how much strength loss is there? (I know some have stated that the clad makes the blade tougher, but won't it also be weaker?) How thick is the core in these steels anyways?

Also, what happens to the clad layer when heat treated with the "proper" specs for the core? I know mfgs try to pick steels with similar HT protocol, but I've read that they optimize for the core, and ignore the cladding. I also remember reading that the higher tempering temperatures for the core vs. the clad leads to coarser grain structure of the clad steel

Thanks

[knifemovieguy]

Even s90v/cpm154 composite gets scratches, sus410 and sus310 are much worse. The only good thing about cladding is that crowned spine can be done very easily.

[Wartstein]

I really like clad steels - have two HAP40/SUS410 Spydies at the moment:

1.) Enhanced corrosion resistance, perhaps important especially around the pivot area
2.) I think more toughness concerning the whole blade
3.) For me just great looks! Each knife looks nicely used, unique and personal due to scratches on the clad steel and patina on the line below. :)

[Matus]

Clad steel is easier to bend/straighten and also easier to thin later down the road (though this is rarely a concern for pocket knives and much more relevant to kitchen knives).

[VooDooChild]

For user knives I like them alot.

1. For user knives, I like scratches and stuff that shows wear through use. Gives the knife character.

2. I dont care about uneven lamination lines, it doesnt bother me at all, and it doesnt effect function at all.
(Some people however complained about this so much that I think spyderco is hesitant to do more laminated steel sprints, which is a shame because I would love to see more.)

3. Advantages of carbon/tool steel in a mostly stainless package.

4. Supposedly increased toughness, dont know.

5. They look cool.

[S-3 ranch]

I have a V-toku2 stretch 2 and wouldn’t hesitate to purchase more stretch 2 knives with cladding

[Wartstein]

I have a V-toku2 stretch 2 and wouldn’t hesitate to purchase more stretch 2 knives with cladding

The HAP 40 Stretch 1 is still to be found...

[S-3 ranch]

I have a V-toku2 stretch 2 and wouldn’t hesitate to purchase more stretch 2 knives with cladding

The HAP 40 Stretch 1 is still to be found...

I found a super blue stretch 2 $475 is out of the budget for my year

[Wartstein]

I have a V-toku2 stretch 2 and wouldn’t hesitate to purchase more stretch 2 knives with cladding

The HAP 40 Stretch 1 is still to be found...

I found a super blue stretch 2 $475 is out of the budget for my year

I think BBB still has the HAP40 Stretch 1 for around 170 (you'd have to look that up) - and I personally even prefer the "1" over the "2"
And HAP40 is my favorite steel... :)

[S-3 ranch]

I have a V-toku2 stretch 2 and wouldn’t hesitate to purchase more stretch 2 knives with cladding

The HAP 40 Stretch 1 is still to be found...

I found a super blue stretch 2 $475 is out of the budget for my year

I think BBB still has the HAP40 Stretch 1 for around 170 (you'd have to look that up) - and I personally even prefer the "1" over the "2"
And HAP40 is my favorite steel... :)

I am unfamiliar with BBB do they have a link or site?

[Doc Dan]

The HAP 40 Stretch 1 is still to be found...

I found a super blue stretch 2 $475 is out of the budget for my year

I think BBB still has the HAP40 Stretch 1 for around 170 (you'd have to look that up) - and I personally even prefer the "1" over the "2"
And HAP40 is my favorite steel... :)

I am unfamiliar with BBB do they have a link or site?

http://www.bentoboxshop.com/

[Wartstein]

The HAP 40 Stretch 1 is still to be found...

I found a super blue stretch 2 $475 is out of the budget for my year

I think BBB still has the HAP40 Stretch 1 for around 170 (you'd have to look that up) - and I personally even prefer the "1" over the "2"
And HAP40 is my favorite steel... :)

I am unfamiliar with BBB do they have a link or site?

Sorry, typo :o

I meant to write BBS (Bentoboxshop http://www.bentoboxshop.com/)
They have the HAP40 Stretch 1 for 185 USD.

(Be aware: BBS allows no returns and has rather high shipping costs (and does not ship outside the US at the moment as far as I know))

[Karl_H]

HAP 40 is great! I highly recommend it.

If the scratches on the SS cladding bother you, it is easy to grind down the primary bevel to remove them. The ease of grinding the cladding is a big benefit both for removing scratches and for improve slicing performance. I prefer soft cladding to hard cladding for this reason.

Unless you are using your knife as a prybar, the loss of strength should not matter. That being said, Fallkniven uses clad steels for their survival knives. With thick blade stock and convex grinds, like on Fallkniven knives, clad steels can be used for prying and battening.

There's a bunch of "info" available on the internet from people abusing Fallkniven knives with clad steel.

[wrdwrght]

My objection to cladded (and coated) steel is an aesthetic one. I simply prefer full exposure of the steel I bought. My well-used but now-gifted Super Blue Stretch performed admirably.

[GarageBoy]

Yeah, I know the clad is functionally fine in normal use, I was just curious about actual figures.

[Abyss_Fish]

Made correctly? No negative effects on performance whatsoever since the three steels are essentially one, if anything it can help make less stainless steels easier to maintain. Plus it can make things like integrated bolsters cheaper and easier to machine and finish. Made improperly? The layers can split, or wear differently causing warps in the blade or worse.

Just like with blade steel it comes down to the skill of the maker. I haven’t heard much about spyderco’s cladded, but if their heat treatments are any indication, I trust it.

[GarageBoy]

Does anyone know if clad steels are used outside knives? Like are there tools made from the sus410/hap40 stock?

[Enactive]

Does anyone know if clad steels are used outside knives? Like are there tools made from the sus410/hap40 stock?

There is a long history of laminated steels being used in wood carving knives and tools. I have a drawknife probably made 80-100 years ago made with laminated steel.

Not sure, but I suspect most of the advantages of laminated steels are found in edged cutting tools, vs wrenches, pliers, hammers, punches, etc.

Curious to hear from others with more knowledge about this.

[Bill1170]

Does anyone know if clad steels are used outside knives? Like are there tools made from the sus410/hap40 stock?

There is a long history of laminated steels being used in wood carving knives and tools. I have a drawknife probably made 80-100 years ago made with laminated steel.

Not sure, but I suspect most of the advantages of laminated steels are found in edged cutting tools, vs wrenches, pliers, hammers, punches, etc.

Curious to hear from others with more knowledge about this.

This is my experience. The traditional Japanese chisels and plane irons are a thin layer of very hard steel forge-welded to a thick layer of softer steel. The hard layer forms the cutting edge and the soft backing supports the edge and gives impact resistance and helps damp out vibrations.

In tools like high-end pliers the alloy is all one composition, but the jaws are differentially hardened to be harder than the rest. Handsaws are often hardened more at the teeth. In pipe wrenches the hardened jaws that bite into the pipe are pinned in place and replaceable.

[Enactive]

Does anyone know if clad steels are used outside knives? Like are there tools made from the sus410/hap40 stock?

There is a long history of laminated steels being used in wood carving knives and tools. I have a drawknife probably made 80-100 years ago made with laminated steel.

Not sure, but I suspect most of the advantages of laminated steels are found in edged cutting tools, vs wrenches, pliers, hammers, punches, etc.

Curious to hear from others with more knowledge about this.

This is my experience. The traditional Japanese chisels and plane irons are a thin layer of very hard steel forge-welded to a thick layer of softer steel. The hard layer forms the cutting edge and the soft backing supports the edge and gives impact resistance and helps damp out vibrations.

In tools like high-end pliers the alloy is all one composition, but the jaws are differentially hardened to be harder than the rest. Handsaws are often hardened more at the teeth. In pipe wrenches the hardened jaws that bite into the pipe are pinned in place and replaceable.

Thanks, Bill.