Clad steels and the affects on performance?
Clad steels and the affects on performance?
I was looking through old posts about clad steels, and it seems to be a polarizing topic - but nonetheless, certain steels from certain factories are going to be only offered in clad form.
I was curious how this directly affects performance.
First, the scratches - yes the SUS410 is soft, but what is the hardness it comes out as? The 420J2 used in the ZDP clad can hit low mid 50s HRC, so they should at least be as scratch resistant as say, a Victorinox Swiss Army knife, right?
Going way back, some noticed that because of the weaker clad steels, the blades will warp in production, or in one case, get bent in use (I'm guessing they behave like bimetal sawzall blades) - how much strength loss is there? (I know some have stated that the clad makes the blade tougher, but won't it also be weaker?) How thick is the core in these steels anyways?
Also, what happens to the clad layer when heat treated with the "proper" specs for the core? I know mfgs try to pick steels with similar HT protocol, but I've read that they optimize for the core, and ignore the cladding. I also remember reading that the higher tempering temperatures for the core vs. the clad leads to coarser grain structure of the clad steel
Thanks
I was curious how this directly affects performance.
First, the scratches - yes the SUS410 is soft, but what is the hardness it comes out as? The 420J2 used in the ZDP clad can hit low mid 50s HRC, so they should at least be as scratch resistant as say, a Victorinox Swiss Army knife, right?
Going way back, some noticed that because of the weaker clad steels, the blades will warp in production, or in one case, get bent in use (I'm guessing they behave like bimetal sawzall blades) - how much strength loss is there? (I know some have stated that the clad makes the blade tougher, but won't it also be weaker?) How thick is the core in these steels anyways?
Also, what happens to the clad layer when heat treated with the "proper" specs for the core? I know mfgs try to pick steels with similar HT protocol, but I've read that they optimize for the core, and ignore the cladding. I also remember reading that the higher tempering temperatures for the core vs. the clad leads to coarser grain structure of the clad steel
Thanks
- knifemovieguy
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Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
Even s90v/cpm154 composite gets scratches, sus410 and sus310 are much worse. The only good thing about cladding is that crowned spine can be done very easily.
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
I really like clad steels - have two HAP40/SUS410 Spydies at the moment:
1.) Enhanced corrosion resistance, perhaps important especially around the pivot area
2.) I think more toughness concerning the whole blade
3.) For me just great looks! Each knife looks nicely used, unique and personal due to scratches on the clad steel and patina on the line below. :)
1.) Enhanced corrosion resistance, perhaps important especially around the pivot area
2.) I think more toughness concerning the whole blade
3.) For me just great looks! Each knife looks nicely used, unique and personal due to scratches on the clad steel and patina on the line below. :)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
Clad steel is easier to bend/straighten and also easier to thin later down the road (though this is rarely a concern for pocket knives and much more relevant to kitchen knives).
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- VooDooChild
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Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
For user knives I like them alot.
1. For user knives, I like scratches and stuff that shows wear through use. Gives the knife character.
2. I dont care about uneven lamination lines, it doesnt bother me at all, and it doesnt effect function at all.
(Some people however complained about this so much that I think spyderco is hesitant to do more laminated steel sprints, which is a shame because I would love to see more.)
3. Advantages of carbon/tool steel in a mostly stainless package.
4. Supposedly increased toughness, dont know.
5. They look cool.
1. For user knives, I like scratches and stuff that shows wear through use. Gives the knife character.
2. I dont care about uneven lamination lines, it doesnt bother me at all, and it doesnt effect function at all.
(Some people however complained about this so much that I think spyderco is hesitant to do more laminated steel sprints, which is a shame because I would love to see more.)
3. Advantages of carbon/tool steel in a mostly stainless package.
4. Supposedly increased toughness, dont know.
5. They look cool.
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Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
I have a V-toku2 stretch 2 and wouldn’t hesitate to purchase more stretch 2 knives with cladding
“”Think of an edge as a living thing that comes and goes, born, get's old, is reborn.””
SAL :spyder:
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Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
The HAP 40 Stretch 1 is still to be found...
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
I found a super blue stretch 2 $475 is out of the budget for my year
“”Think of an edge as a living thing that comes and goes, born, get's old, is reborn.””
SAL :spyder:
“ The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men”
SAL :spyder:
“ The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men”
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
I think BBB still has the HAP40 Stretch 1 for around 170 (you'd have to look that up) - and I personally even prefer the "1" over the "2"
And HAP40 is my favorite steel... :)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
I am unfamiliar with BBB do they have a link or site?Wartstein wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:52 pmI think BBB still has the HAP40 Stretch 1 for around 170 (you'd have to look that up) - and I personally even prefer the "1" over the "2"
And HAP40 is my favorite steel... :)
“”Think of an edge as a living thing that comes and goes, born, get's old, is reborn.””
SAL :spyder:
“ The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men”
SAL :spyder:
“ The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men”
- Doc Dan
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Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
http://www.bentoboxshop.com/S-3 ranch wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:59 amI am unfamiliar with BBB do they have a link or site?
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Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)
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Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
S-3 ranch wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:59 amI am unfamiliar with BBB do they have a link or site?
Sorry, typo :o
I meant to write BBS (Bentoboxshop http://www.bentoboxshop.com/)
They have the HAP40 Stretch 1 for 185 USD.
(Be aware: BBS allows no returns and has rather high shipping costs (and does not ship outside the US at the moment as far as I know))
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
HAP 40 is great! I highly recommend it.
If the scratches on the SS cladding bother you, it is easy to grind down the primary bevel to remove them. The ease of grinding the cladding is a big benefit both for removing scratches and for improve slicing performance. I prefer soft cladding to hard cladding for this reason.
Unless you are using your knife as a prybar, the loss of strength should not matter. That being said, Fallkniven uses clad steels for their survival knives. With thick blade stock and convex grinds, like on Fallkniven knives, clad steels can be used for prying and battening.
There's a bunch of "info" available on the internet from people abusing Fallkniven knives with clad steel.
If the scratches on the SS cladding bother you, it is easy to grind down the primary bevel to remove them. The ease of grinding the cladding is a big benefit both for removing scratches and for improve slicing performance. I prefer soft cladding to hard cladding for this reason.
Unless you are using your knife as a prybar, the loss of strength should not matter. That being said, Fallkniven uses clad steels for their survival knives. With thick blade stock and convex grinds, like on Fallkniven knives, clad steels can be used for prying and battening.
There's a bunch of "info" available on the internet from people abusing Fallkniven knives with clad steel.
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
My objection to cladded (and coated) steel is an aesthetic one. I simply prefer full exposure of the steel I bought. My well-used but now-gifted Super Blue Stretch performed admirably.
-Marc (pocketing an S110V Native5 today)
“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
Yeah, I know the clad is functionally fine in normal use, I was just curious about actual figures.
- Abyss_Fish
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Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
Made correctly? No negative effects on performance whatsoever since the three steels are essentially one, if anything it can help make less stainless steels easier to maintain. Plus it can make things like integrated bolsters cheaper and easier to machine and finish. Made improperly? The layers can split, or wear differently causing warps in the blade or worse.
Just like with blade steel it comes down to the skill of the maker. I haven’t heard much about spyderco’s cladded, but if their heat treatments are any indication, I trust it.
Just like with blade steel it comes down to the skill of the maker. I haven’t heard much about spyderco’s cladded, but if their heat treatments are any indication, I trust it.
Lightly insane.
Current spydie collection: Watu, Rhino, UKPK Salt G10 bladeswap, Yojimbo 2 Smooth G10 Cru-Wear, Manix lw “mystic” 20cv, SmallFly 2, Waterway, Ladybug k390, Caribbean
Current favorite steels: sg2/R2, lc200n/Z-FiNit, 3v
Current spydie collection: Watu, Rhino, UKPK Salt G10 bladeswap, Yojimbo 2 Smooth G10 Cru-Wear, Manix lw “mystic” 20cv, SmallFly 2, Waterway, Ladybug k390, Caribbean
Current favorite steels: sg2/R2, lc200n/Z-FiNit, 3v
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
Does anyone know if clad steels are used outside knives? Like are there tools made from the sus410/hap40 stock?
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
There is a long history of laminated steels being used in wood carving knives and tools. I have a drawknife probably made 80-100 years ago made with laminated steel.
Not sure, but I suspect most of the advantages of laminated steels are found in edged cutting tools, vs wrenches, pliers, hammers, punches, etc.
Curious to hear from others with more knowledge about this.
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
This is my experience. The traditional Japanese chisels and plane irons are a thin layer of very hard steel forge-welded to a thick layer of softer steel. The hard layer forms the cutting edge and the soft backing supports the edge and gives impact resistance and helps damp out vibrations.Enactive wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 8:42 pmThere is a long history of laminated steels being used in wood carving knives and tools. I have a drawknife probably made 80-100 years ago made with laminated steel.
Not sure, but I suspect most of the advantages of laminated steels are found in edged cutting tools, vs wrenches, pliers, hammers, punches, etc.
Curious to hear from others with more knowledge about this.
In tools like high-end pliers the alloy is all one composition, but the jaws are differentially hardened to be harder than the rest. Handsaws are often hardened more at the teeth. In pipe wrenches the hardened jaws that bite into the pipe are pinned in place and replaceable.
Re: Clad steels and the affects on performance?
Thanks, Bill.Bill1170 wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:44 pmThis is my experience. The traditional Japanese chisels and plane irons are a thin layer of very hard steel forge-welded to a thick layer of softer steel. The hard layer forms the cutting edge and the soft backing supports the edge and gives impact resistance and helps damp out vibrations.Enactive wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 8:42 pmThere is a long history of laminated steels being used in wood carving knives and tools. I have a drawknife probably made 80-100 years ago made with laminated steel.
Not sure, but I suspect most of the advantages of laminated steels are found in edged cutting tools, vs wrenches, pliers, hammers, punches, etc.
Curious to hear from others with more knowledge about this.
In tools like high-end pliers the alloy is all one composition, but the jaws are differentially hardened to be harder than the rest. Handsaws are often hardened more at the teeth. In pipe wrenches the hardened jaws that bite into the pipe are pinned in place and replaceable.