Hard Use Knife

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kobold
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#41

Post by kobold »

If you can, get a used Native LW. It is a much better hard use knife than the Chaparral. Not only the blade is 70% thicker and slightly longer, but the ergonomics are better too (larger, thicker, more hand filling handle) which will make all the difference. And compared to a 110 it really is ultralight.
Military/PM2/P3 Native Chief/Native GB2 DF2 PITS Chaparral Tasman Salt 2 SE Caribbean Sheepfoot SE SpydieChef Swayback Manix2 Sage 1 SSS Stretch 2 XL G10
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#42

Post by Wartstein »

kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:19 am
If you can, get a used Native LW. It is a much better hard use knife than the Chaparral. Not only the blade is 70% thicker and slightly longer, but the ergonomics are better too (larger, thicker, more hand filling handle) which will make all the difference. And compared to a 110 it really is ultralight.

This is the case for you, but not for me or for all
So not a fact, but something the op would have to try for himself.
(I found the Chap to be way better for my hard (and light) use, especially in ergos - so much so that I sold my Native - see here for my reasoning viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89663&start=20#p1522700)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#43

Post by Doc Dan »

Buck has great heat treatment for their steels. I’d choose that over the very thin Chaparral. I’ve used a couple of Buck 110’s hard and no complaints.

As for Spyderco folders, since the Manix is out of your price range an Endura or Endela would be good choices.
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#44

Post by aicolainen »

Hard use means different things for different people.
For me it means not holding back in fear of damaging the knife, i.e. borderline not being a (pocket) knife task, or even beyond that border.
I've been able to circumvent that problem myself by adding a small pry bar to my EDC, but if I wanted to accomplish that same range of use with just a knife, price and safety would be my primary concern. I don't want the value of my knife to hold me back from doing what needs to be done and I certainly want to avoid getting hurt in the process.
So if you're on a budget and want a backlock for hard use, that's just another way of spelling Cold Steel. That's their whole thing.
Not a lot of Cold Steels appeal to me though, but in this situation I would be able to look past that minor detail.
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#45

Post by kobold »

Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:19 am
If you can, get a used Native LW. It is a much better hard use knife than the Chaparral. Not only the blade is 70% thicker and slightly longer, but the ergonomics are better too (larger, thicker, more hand filling handle) which will make all the difference. And compared to a 110 it really is ultralight.

This is the case for you, but not for me or for all
So not a fact, but something the op would have to try for himself.
(I found the Chap to be way better for my hard (and light) use, especially in ergos - so much so that I sold my Native - see here for my reasoning viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89663&start=20#p1522700)


Sorry Wartstein, I can't keep up with everything you post.
But sure, people with smaller hands will find smaller handles usable!
Military/PM2/P3 Native Chief/Native GB2 DF2 PITS Chaparral Tasman Salt 2 SE Caribbean Sheepfoot SE SpydieChef Swayback Manix2 Sage 1 SSS Stretch 2 XL G10
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#46

Post by ladybug93 »

i know it's not a lockback, but if i needed a good knife that i wanted to use hard in that price range, it would definitely be the resilience. it's big, but still pockets well and it's no slouch. i think spyderco does their 8cr13mov better than other companies i've tried, but the edge still won't last forever. it's super easy to touch up though.

and aicolainen is right. if you want a beater backlock, you really want cold steel. the triad lock is great and their knives beg to be abused. aus8/aus10 are basically on par with 8cr13mov and vg10, respectively.
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#47

Post by kobold »

aicolainen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:29 pm
Hard use means different things for different people.
For me it means not holding back in fear of damaging the knife, i.e. borderline not being a (pocket) knife task, or even beyond that border.
I've been able to circumvent that problem myself by adding a small pry bar to my EDC, but if I wanted to accomplish that same range of use with just a knife, price and safety would be my primary concern. I don't want the value of my knife to hold me back from doing what needs to be done and I certainly want to avoid getting hurt in the process.
So if you're on a budget and want a backlock for hard use, that's just another way of spelling Cold Steel. That's their whole thing.
Not a lot of Cold Steels appeal to me though, but in this situation I would be able to look past that minor detail.


Maybe not even CS. It is hard use. The proper answer would be to just go straight to a full tang fixed blade with 14C28N or 3V steel. With a convex grind. No?
Military/PM2/P3 Native Chief/Native GB2 DF2 PITS Chaparral Tasman Salt 2 SE Caribbean Sheepfoot SE SpydieChef Swayback Manix2 Sage 1 SSS Stretch 2 XL G10
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#48

Post by Wartstein »

kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:29 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:19 am

This is the case for you, but not for me or for all
So not a fact, but something the op would have to try for himself.
(I found the Chap to be way better for my hard (and light) use, especially in ergos - so much so that I sold my Native - see here for my reasoning viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89663&start=20#p1522700)


Sorry Wartstein, I can't keep up with everything you post.
But sure, people with smaller hands will find smaller handles usable!
No problem, I did not expect that you read my post! :)
Just wanted to point you towards it as example that not for everyone the Native has to be the better hard use knife ("hard use" as defined by the op: Making firewood and so on, no batoning)

And: I have not small, but L to XL hands and the Chap feels clearly more stable and locked in in my hand than the Native. And actually more comfortable when bearing down on it, since it does not turn and move.

Would not have expected this at all, but it just turned out to be that way for me.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#49

Post by Wartstein »

kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:34 pm
aicolainen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:29 pm
Hard use means different things for different people.
For me it means not holding back in fear of damaging the knife, i.e. borderline not being a (pocket) knife task, or even beyond that border.
I've been able to circumvent that problem myself by adding a small pry bar to my EDC, but if I wanted to accomplish that same range of use with just a knife, price and safety would be my primary concern. I don't want the value of my knife to hold me back from doing what needs to be done and I certainly want to avoid getting hurt in the process.
So if you're on a budget and want a backlock for hard use, that's just another way of spelling Cold Steel. That's their whole thing.
Not a lot of Cold Steels appeal to me though, but in this situation I would be able to look past that minor detail.


Maybe not even CS. It is hard use. The proper answer would be to just go straight to a full tang fixed blade with 14C28N or 3V steel. With a convex grind. No?

I agree, when talking about THAT kind of brutal hard use that is not really for a folder anymore anyway... but I think the op has something else in mind when talking about "hard use"?

For that brutal kind I'd recommend a sabre grind Delica or Endura if it has to be a backlock Spyderco folder
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#50

Post by kobold »

Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:17 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:29 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:19 am

This is the case for you, but not for me or for all
So not a fact, but something the op would have to try for himself.
(I found the Chap to be way better for my hard (and light) use, especially in ergos - so much so that I sold my Native - see here for my reasoning viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89663&start=20#p1522700)


Sorry Wartstein, I can't keep up with everything you post.
But sure, people with smaller hands will find smaller handles usable!
No problem, I did not expect that you read my post! :)
Just wanted to point you towards it as example that not for everyone the Native has to be the better hard use knife ("hard use" as defined by the op: Making firewood and so on, no batoning)

And: I have not small, but L to XL hands and the Chap feels clearly more stable and locked in in my hand than the Native. And actually more comfortable when bearing down on it, since it does not turn and move.

Would not have expected this at all, but it just turned out to be that way for me.

I believe you, but in general, bigger and thicker is always better when it comes to handles on hard use knives. More leverage, more control, less hot-spots because the pressure is distributed over a larger area, more territory for different grips and so on.

Only past the Military-sized handle we start hitting the unnecessarily large sizes. It might be even possible, that upto that point, everything is a bit of a compromise.
Military/PM2/P3 Native Chief/Native GB2 DF2 PITS Chaparral Tasman Salt 2 SE Caribbean Sheepfoot SE SpydieChef Swayback Manix2 Sage 1 SSS Stretch 2 XL G10
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#51

Post by TkoK83Spy »

Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:17 pm
And: I have not small, but L to XL hands and the Chap feels clearly more stable and locked in in my hand than the Native. And actually more comfortable when bearing down on it, since it does not turn and move.

Would not have expected this at all, but it just turned out to be that way for me.
That's strange to me, because I have kind of smaller hands. M-L size but I found the Chap's thin profile to not feel very secure in my hand, especially when placing my thumb on the ramp and using force to cut down through material.

You'd think smaller hands would benefit from the smaller/thinner size. Guess we're all different!

*on a side note, my new Native Chief feels like a darn sword in my hand haha. I forget what it's like to have such a long folder*
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

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Re: Hard Use Knife

#52

Post by Wartstein »

kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:27 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:17 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:29 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm
No problem, I did not expect that you read my post! :)
Just wanted to point you towards it as example that not for everyone the Native has to be the better hard use knife ("hard use" as defined by the op: Making firewood and so on, no batoning)

And: I have not small, but L to XL hands and the Chap feels clearly more stable and locked in in my hand than the Native. And actually more comfortable when bearing down on it, since it does not turn and move.

Would not have expected this at all, but it just turned out to be that way for me.

I believe you, but in general, bigger and thicker is always better when it comes to handles on hard use knives. More leverage, more control, less hot-spots because the pressure is distributed over a larger area, more territory for different grips and so on.

Only past the Military-sized handle we start hitting the unnecessarily large sizes. It might be even possible, that upto that point, everything is a bit of a compromise.

You are right, it would be silly to deny that normally wider, larger, more handfilling handles just have to be more comfortable and better especially for hard use!!

That's why I was honestly surprised that it turned out not to be that way for me with Chap vs Native. It's just that in my hand the Native starts to get unstable when used harder, while the Chap is really locked in.

But I assume that this will be not true for everyone or even just be that way for a minority!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#53

Post by Wartstein »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:28 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:17 pm
And: I have not small, but L to XL hands and the Chap feels clearly more stable and locked in in my hand than the Native. And actually more comfortable when bearing down on it, since it does not turn and move.

Would not have expected this at all, but it just turned out to be that way for me.
That's strange to me, because I have kind of smaller hands. M-L size but I found the Chap's thin profile to not feel very secure in my hand, especially when placing my thumb on the ramp and using force to cut down through material.

You'd think smaller hands would benefit from the smaller/thinner size. Guess we're all different!

*on a side note, my new Native Chief feels like a darn sword in my hand haha. I forget what it's like to have such a long folder*

Rick, I fully understand that this must sound strange... but it's just what I found in real use, for whatever reason (see also my previous post)

And I am not saying that the Chap is actually particularely comfortable! It is for what it is (a thin, very small folder), but overall I prefer knives like the Salt / Delica handle wise in the small Spydie arena.

Could you ever directly compare a Native and a Chap in "hard" use (gripping the handle very firmly and cutting tough material)?
This is when for me the Chap is just more stable and locked in
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#54

Post by kobold »

Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:35 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:27 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:17 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:29 pm
No problem, I did not expect that you read my post! :)
Just wanted to point you towards it as example that not for everyone the Native has to be the better hard use knife ("hard use" as defined by the op: Making firewood and so on, no batoning)

And: I have not small, but L to XL hands and the Chap feels clearly more stable and locked in in my hand than the Native. And actually more comfortable when bearing down on it, since it does not turn and move.

Would not have expected this at all, but it just turned out to be that way for me.

I believe you, but in general, bigger and thicker is always better when it comes to handles on hard use knives. More leverage, more control, less hot-spots because the pressure is distributed over a larger area, more territory for different grips and so on.

Only past the Military-sized handle we start hitting the unnecessarily large sizes. It might be even possible, that upto that point, everything is a bit of a compromise.

You are right, it would be silly to deny that normally wider, larger, more handfilling handles just have to be more comfortable and better especially for hard use!!

That's why I was honestly surprised that it turned out not to be that way for me with Chap vs Native. It's just that in my hand the Native starts to get unstable when used harder, while the Chap is really locked in.

But I assume that this will be not true for everyone or even just be that way for a minority!

Was it happening with particular materials and/or cuts (eg push-cut, etc) or just across the board?
I am tempted to investigate. I never use my Chaps hard, only the Natives.
Military/PM2/P3 Native Chief/Native GB2 DF2 PITS Chaparral Tasman Salt 2 SE Caribbean Sheepfoot SE SpydieChef Swayback Manix2 Sage 1 SSS Stretch 2 XL G10
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#55

Post by TkoK83Spy »

Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:42 pm
Could you ever directly compare a Native and a Chap in "hard" use (gripping the handle very firmly and cutting tough material)?
This is when for me the Chap is just more stable and locked in
I can't. I had a Native LW for a couple days but the design just didn't connect with me (I think because it was an LW and I typically don't like those) So I didn't really use it too much. I'd love to try a G10 version though.
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

-Rick
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#56

Post by aicolainen »

kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:34 pm
aicolainen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:29 pm
Hard use means different things for different people.
For me it means not holding back in fear of damaging the knife, i.e. borderline not being a (pocket) knife task, or even beyond that border.
I've been able to circumvent that problem myself by adding a small pry bar to my EDC, but if I wanted to accomplish that same range of use with just a knife, price and safety would be my primary concern. I don't want the value of my knife to hold me back from doing what needs to be done and I certainly want to avoid getting hurt in the process.
So if you're on a budget and want a backlock for hard use, that's just another way of spelling Cold Steel. That's their whole thing.
Not a lot of Cold Steels appeal to me though, but in this situation I would be able to look past that minor detail.


Maybe not even CS. It is hard use. The proper answer would be to just go straight to a full tang fixed blade with 14C28N or 3V steel. With a convex grind. No?
Generally yes, but the OP need it to be a folder for legal reasons, and he want that folder to be a lock back because of personal preference.
So CS it is.
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#57

Post by kobold »

aicolainen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:29 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:34 pm
aicolainen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:29 pm
Hard use means different things for different people.
For me it means not holding back in fear of damaging the knife, i.e. borderline not being a (pocket) knife task, or even beyond that border.
I've been able to circumvent that problem myself by adding a small pry bar to my EDC, but if I wanted to accomplish that same range of use with just a knife, price and safety would be my primary concern. I don't want the value of my knife to hold me back from doing what needs to be done and I certainly want to avoid getting hurt in the process.
So if you're on a budget and want a backlock for hard use, that's just another way of spelling Cold Steel. That's their whole thing.
Not a lot of Cold Steels appeal to me though, but in this situation I would be able to look past that minor detail.


Maybe not even CS. It is hard use. The proper answer would be to just go straight to a full tang fixed blade with 14C28N or 3V steel. With a convex grind. No?
Generally yes, but the OP need it to be a folder for legal reasons, and he want that folder to be a lock back because of personal preference.
So CS it is.

:eek: But this is a Spyderco forum! :)
Military/PM2/P3 Native Chief/Native GB2 DF2 PITS Chaparral Tasman Salt 2 SE Caribbean Sheepfoot SE SpydieChef Swayback Manix2 Sage 1 SSS Stretch 2 XL G10
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#58

Post by JD Spydo »

This is a category I can speak loudly on. Because this is where I really came to have a special love for the GOLDEN, CO Earth made Spyderco blades. I EDCed and M390 Military model almost without interruption for 4 and a half years and I put that bad boy through some really horrific cutting jobs. I've got it in retirement mode for the time being but I would highly recommend any of those GOLDEN, CO made C-36 Military models for anyone's hard use.

Now if blade length is a problem and I do realize that many of you live in states and countries with draconian knife laws that are just outright ridiculous IMO >> then if that's the case you can go down to one of the Para2 models to not attract unwanted attention. I've got 3 of those that I do carry from time to time and the Para2 is one you just can't go wrong with IMO. Whenever I cross the state line and work in the state of Kansas I usually carry one of my Para2 models. For some strange reason Kansas has some really bad knife and gun laws which really make me scratch my head because it's mainly a rural state for the most part. I live in Missouri where we have very reasonable knife laws and a C-36 Military is one of my favs for hard use.

There is just something really good about those GOLDEN, CO made Spyders that really seem to handle hard use.
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#59

Post by wrdwrght »

Wartstein wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm
kobold wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:19 am
If you can, get a used Native LW. It is a much better hard use knife than the Chaparral. Not only the blade is 70% thicker and slightly longer, but the ergonomics are better too (larger, thicker, more hand filling handle) which will make all the difference. And compared to a 110 it really is ultralight.
This is the case for you, but not for me or for all
So not a fact, but something the op would have to try for himself.
(I found the Chap to be way better for my hard (and light) use, especially in ergos - so much so that I sold my Native - see here for my reasoning viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89663&start=20#p1522700)
Do you imagine Kobold is making a recommendation to you, Gernot, rather than to the OP? If so, you’re hijacking this thread.

I think Kobold’s recommendation (not a declaration of fact but of opinion) is perfectly in keeping with what the OP might find suitable, except that it will be difficult to stay within the OP’s budget.
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
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Re: Hard Use Knife

#60

Post by Paraguy »

Im holding my new Chap right now and nothing about it screams hard use. It's a little bigger than the Dragonfly with very thin blade stock - a great little slicer. But for 60 bucks I'd totally get it as long as it's not a scam. For a light weight hard use knife id recommend a delica, endela or endura (they cost a little more than 60 though ;) ). If your sure you don't want to spend more than 60 get a tenacious, resilience or something from another brand. If you don't mind SE I can find you a used Native lw (it costs more than 60, but still a great deal. Shoot me PM if you're interested :) )
Last edited by Paraguy on Wed May 12, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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