Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

[Wartstein]

1) Precise cuts through cardboard gift packaging that allow items to be mounted/displayed in the boxes: the cuts must have clean ends/edges and leave the flocking on the surface of the cardboard inserts with no cosmetic damage. I do this almost every day at work, sometimes 5 or more times/day.

2) Carving hard and soft wood to shape, while leaving a smooth finish. Maybe twice a week averaged over a year (and more with wood carving knives, this is just EDC cutting).

3) Any cut that needs to be straight, or have clean edges, not all cutting is done on items that are being disposed of!
...

[To avoid more comments like we had already in this thread: This is an exchange of different personal experiences and opinions, no objective right or wrong here]

My experiences with SE differ from yours:

- Cleanly cutting gift packages works great with SE, since just one of the very sharp chisel grind scallops (almost always a lot steeper edge angle than a v grind PE blade) can handle the job easily - but perhaps with sharp PE one can do such specific cuts more carelessly and more natural

- Even if I use most of the SE on things like paper the cut has still clean edges with properly sharpened SE (and to cleanly cut paper PE has to be somewhat sharp too)

- True, when carving wood into shape SE does not leave a smooth finish, if this is the goal PE is clearly superior!
In return SE carves wood into shape faster and easier (but leaves a rough finish!) in my experience, due to the chisel grind.

[knifemovieguy]

Only PE and SE fans dueling. There must be something wrong with PS

[Wartstein]

Only PE and SE fans dueling. There must be something wrong with PS

This is one if the weirdest threads I came across here so far...people suddenly seem to forget that this is a discussion forum :confused:

Where is the "dueling"?!?

Opinions and differing personal experiences get exchanged and respectfully discussed like it was meant to be on this forum.
Interesting, informative and helpful especially for the OP who obviously was a bit disappointed with his first SE knife and now might get a hint what the reasons for that could be, how he could perhaps get a better experience and so on.

Like with comp lock vs backlock, FRN vs G10, low grit vs high grit sharpening of course people may have different experiences depending on their techniques, preferences, main knife tasks, and so on...

Plus there are still some myths concerning SE (hard to sharpen...). It is only a good and helpful thing if people get rid if those.

[knifemovieguy]

1) Precise cuts through cardboard gift packaging that allow items to be mounted/displayed in the boxes: the cuts must have clean ends/edges and leave the flocking on the surface of the cardboard inserts with no cosmetic damage. I do this almost every day at work, sometimes 5 or more times/day.

2) Carving hard and soft wood to shape, while leaving a smooth finish. Maybe twice a week averaged over a year (and more with wood carving knives, this is just EDC cutting).

3) Any cut that needs to be straight, or have clean edges, not all cutting is done on items that are being disposed of!
...

[To avoid more comments like we had already in this thread: This is an exchange of different personal experiences and opinions, no objective right or wrong here]

My experiences with SE differ from yours:

- Cleanly cutting gift packages works great with SE, since just one of the very sharp chisel grind scallops (almost always a lot steeper edge angle than a v grind PE blade) can handle the job easily - but perhaps with sharp PE one can do such specific cuts more carelessly and more natural

- Even if I use most of the SE on things like paper the cut has still clean edges with properly sharpened SE (and to cleanly cut paper PE has to be somewhat sharp too)

- True, when carving wood into shape SE does not leave a smooth finish, if this is the goal PE is clearly superior!
In return SE carves wood into shape faster and easier (but leaves a rough finish!) in my experience, due to the chisel grind.

This looks like dueling to me. Every forum works this way, back and forth, ping-pong going on.

[Evil D]

Sometimes it does seem like a discussion turns to an argument when people disagree. I hope nobody ever thinks that of me. To put this bluntly but also completely honestly, I don't care what you like or don't like and I mean that in the most respectful way possible. I'm not trying to change your opinion, I'm just trying to share my experiences. This is a discussion forum and we can discuss things and I can explain my side and we can agree or disagree, we all like what we like and there's absolutely nothing wrong with you not agreeing with me. My stance is simply to separate facts from opinions, and with this particular topic there are usually a lot more opinions being spread than facts. I'm a little passionate about this topic because the more people hate on SE, the less of them get produced and the less I have to choose from. This latest reveal was a breath of fresh air, but it can change from one day to the next.

[metaphoricalsimile]

So I haven't done a full reprofile of the serrations on my lil H1 Dragonfly, but I did follow some of the sharpening tips that people gave me here, and now it is actually quite nice to cut with. I don't understand why it came from the factory with an ineffective grind, but thanks to you wonderful people I now feel like I have a very functional tool and I get why people like SE, especially on small knives.

[Evil D]

So I haven't done a full reprofile of the serrations on my lil H1 Dragonfly, but I did follow some of the sharpening tips that people gave me here, and now it is actually quite nice to cut with. I don't understand why it came from the factory with an ineffective grind, but thanks to you wonderful people I now feel like I have a very functional tool and I get why people like SE, especially on small knives.

It's one of my favorite SE models. I get the argument that small knives may not be ideal for serrations, but to me serrations just add to the cutting power regardless of size. The SE Dfly Salt is one of my "forever models" that I'll never be without.

[metaphoricalsimile]

So I haven't done a full reprofile of the serrations on my lil H1 Dragonfly, but I did follow some of the sharpening tips that people gave me here, and now it is actually quite nice to cut with. I don't understand why it came from the factory with an ineffective grind, but thanks to you wonderful people I now feel like I have a very functional tool and I get why people like SE, especially on small knives.

It's one of my favorite SE models. I get the argument that small knives may not be ideal for serrations, but to me serrations just add to the cutting power regardless of size. The SE Dfly Salt is one of my "forever models" that I'll never be without.

Yeah, that's the reason why I picked up this knife in particular, was that in theory I could see how serrations can magnify the performance of a short blade by having significantly longer cutting edge in the same overall blade length, which combined with the claimed performance enhancement of serrated H1 I really wanted to try it out, and why I was really disappointed with its out-of-the-box performance. Your thread did a really great job of breaking down how serrations actually work and how to sharpen them to do that work well, so thank you much for that. I'm glad to see it is stickied now.

[sal]

We're always working on trying to get the teeth better. It's more challenging than it might appear. fortunately we have Sharpmakers and Knife Afi's us get there while we work on the ideal factory teeth.

sal

[Wartstein]

We're always working on trying to get the teeth better. It's more challenging than it might appear. fortunately we have Sharpmakers and Knife Afi's us get there while we work on the ideal factory teeth.

sal

Sal, in my humble opinion you have already figured those out, at least for ffg: Just like in the Endela SE! :)

[Wartstein]

sal

Haha I wouldn't have the patients for that! How does one shave with a serrated edge anyhow? Sounds painful :D

Again, why do you "have the patience" to keep your PE knives sharp but not your SE knives?
SE takes even less patience, since it is easier and quicker to sharpen plus will then stay sharp longer...

I don't have fancy sharpeners for SE. Ive being sharpening PE for a while now and i'm quite comfortable with it.
I wouldn't be able to shave with me SE knives even if they were hair popping because they aren't rounded. It would poke into my skin.

Hey Paraguy,

just thought of our conversation here and wondered if you came across to look at Vivis sharpening SE thread yet?
HERE https://youtu.be/Ptmx1iJELhU&t=78s is the vid he linked there, it shows why SE is actually easier to sharpen than PE and that no "fancy sharpeners" are needed.

To be clear: NO intention at all to "convert" you to SE! Totally fine of course if you prefer PE and there are certainly reasons for that too!
Just thought it might open up another field in the "knife hobby" for you :)

[Paraguy]

Haha I wouldn't have the patients for that! How does one shave with a serrated edge anyhow? Sounds painful :D

Again, why do you "have the patience" to keep your PE knives sharp but not your SE knives?
SE takes even less patience, since it is easier and quicker to sharpen plus will then stay sharp longer...

I don't have fancy sharpeners for SE. Ive being sharpening PE for a while now and i'm quite comfortable with it.
I wouldn't be able to shave with me SE knives even if they were hair popping because they aren't rounded. It would poke into my skin.

Hey Paraguy,

just thought of our conversation here and wondered if you came across to look at Vivis sharpening SE thread yet?
HERE https://youtu.be/Ptmx1iJELhU&t=78s is the vid he linked there, it shows why SE is actually easier to sharpen than PE and that no "fancy sharpeners" are needed.

To be clear: NO intention at all to "convert" you to SE! Totally fine of course if you prefer PE and there are certainly reasons for that too!
Just thought it might open up another field in the "knife hobby" for you :)

Thanks! I'm not against them. Im mostly not very experienced with them and am more used to PE. I would love to get a few more some time in the future. (I don't own any Spyder edge)

[Paraguy]

Haha I wouldn't have the patients for that! How does one shave with a serrated edge anyhow? Sounds painful :D

Again, why do you "have the patience" to keep your PE knives sharp but not your SE knives?
SE takes even less patience, since it is easier and quicker to sharpen plus will then stay sharp longer...

I don't have fancy sharpeners for SE. Ive being sharpening PE for a while now and i'm quite comfortable with it.
I wouldn't be able to shave with me SE knives even if they were hair popping because they aren't rounded. It would poke into my skin.

Hey Paraguy,

just thought of our conversation here and wondered if you came across to look at Vivis sharpening SE thread yet?
HERE https://youtu.be/Ptmx1iJELhU&t=78s is the vid he linked there, it shows why SE is actually easier to sharpen than PE and that no "fancy sharpeners" are needed.

To be clear: NO intention at all to "convert" you to SE! Totally fine of course if you prefer PE and there are certainly reasons for that too!
Just thought it might open up another field in the "knife hobby" for you :)

Wow! That video was very helpful. Thanks so much! Hmm should I get a salt 2 now??.... :rolleyes:

[Josh Crutchley]

It's all in the sharpening. Straight out of the box is no comparison and really doesn't tell you the whole story.

There's a lot of people that overlook this including myself. The first SE knife I owned was the Byrd Hawkbill. I honestly hated cutting with it, seemed to always snag. I've now had the pleasure of using a SE knife that's been reprofiled. What a night and day difference it made. I took a thin piece of cardboard and made two cuts, one with SE the other with PE. The difference was negligible so I tried a few more times and still got the same result. The smoothed out serrations don't seem to snag anymore.

[Evil D]

It's all in the sharpening. Straight out of the box is no comparison and really doesn't tell you the whole story.

There's a lot of people that overlook this including myself. The first SE knife I owned was the Byrd Hawkbill. I honestly hated cutting with it, seemed to always snag. I've now had the pleasure of using a SE knife that's been reprofiled. What a night and day difference it made. I took a thin piece of cardboard and made two cuts, one with SE the other with PE. The difference was negligible so I tried a few more times and still got the same result. The smoothed out serrations don't seem to snag anymore.

On one hand, my Caribbean sheepsfoot came with easily the sharpest SE edge I've experienced, it was really impressive and I've come very close to that level of sharpness but it was just on a different level.

On the other hand oftentimes those factory edges also come with sharp points that like to snag. The Caribbean was better than most right out of the but it definitely still got better with sharpening.

[Jbaffoh]

It's all in the sharpening. Straight out of the box is no comparison and really doesn't tell you the whole story.

There's a lot of people that overlook this including myself. The first SE knife I owned was the Byrd Hawkbill. I honestly hated cutting with it, seemed to always snag. I've now had the pleasure of using a SE knife that's been reprofiled. What a night and day difference it made. I took a thin piece of cardboard and made two cuts, one with SE the other with PE. The difference was negligible so I tried a few more times and still got the same result. The smoothed out serrations don't seem to snag anymore.

On one hand, my Caribbean sheepsfoot came with easily the sharpest SE edge I've experienced, it was really impressive and I've come very close to that level of sharpness but it was just on a different level.

On the other hand oftentimes those factory edges also come with sharp points that like to snag. The Caribbean was better than most right out of the but it definitely still got better with sharpening.

As a sailor, I cut through lots of types of rope. Different materials, different braids, etc. Most SE blades designed for rigging or sailing suck for rope. They are ok for sawing through in an emergency—but not great because they snag and you really have to saw. But most rope cutting is with the goal of having a nice clean cut with undisturbed fibers so you can splice or whatever. SE blades just shred and ruin the rope end. Even Spydie SE edges are notorious for this and disfavored for rope work, versus emergency cutting. The only SE blade I currently own is a David Boye, which has gentle serrations that slice and make very fast clean cuts—and the toothy cobalt blade helps a lot. It will never push cut paper, but it is the best blade for rope work, other than my hot knife.

HOWEVER, I read through your Caribbean torture thread, and I am going to buy one (I’ve been waiting for a sheepsfoot PE, but now I think I’ll buy both). I am also in the process of reading your SE thread. I am not interested in spending days or weeks reprofiling a new SE Caribbean, so I hope it works out of the box. If you’re interested in the shape of successful rope-cutting serrations, you can see them here (and dammit, their prices went up again! $40 in two years): https://www.boyeknives.com/collections/all

[awa54]

It's worse for cutting open packages, cutting tags off clothes, opening letters than my PE dfly.

I'm confused as to why you'd think SE could've been better for cutting tape and paper. SE shines when used for tough fibrous materials, not envelopes. You just don't have a need for the serrations. But that doesn't mean they're bad. That's like trying to cut down (the mightiest) a tree (in the forest) with a paring knife and then saying paring knives must be bad...

but still better than a herring!

Roger the Shrubber undoubtedly used SE blades

[sal]

Funny, As I watch some of the experts and their videos, I find my self cringing at times.

"From the factory": (Metaphoricalsimile)

When we first began introducing serrated edges in the early 80's, it was a battle with factories for a good 10 years. Serrated edges are put on with a formed wheel. Each time the wheel is plunged into the the blade, the serrations are formed. Each time there is a little bit of wear on the wheel., which changes the shape slightly. When the shape changes too much, the wheel is dressed with a diamond dresser that reshapes the wheel. Most of the steels we use are quite hard and abrasive resistant so the wheels are dressed often, in some cases every 10 blades. Also keep in mind that the wheels are getting smaller as they wear and are dressed. So in reality, no two serrated blades are exactly the same. Factories like to start with deeper teeth so they can get more dressings before having to redress the wheel. That's why the Sharpmaker can be so useful. Rounding out the teeth a bit really helps with this "tuning". I was really impressed with David, because he went through all of the learning curves to get to the cheese at the end of the maze, and his explanations and pictures really helps explain the maze. That's why we keep it at the top.

When sharpening a serrated edge, we feel the Sharpmaker works best. The corner of a flat stone can be used, but in my opinion, the edge is less effective than if sharpened on a Sharpmaker. We developed the Sharpmaker with serrations and microscopes over a several year period. Tapered rods are, in my opinion, difficult to get there because if you don't stop the stroke at the exact location to fit the curve, you deform the edge.

It is important that you slow down the stroke down the stone if you really want to sharpen the edge, which is recessed between the teeth. If you go too fast, like the guy in the video above, I don't think he's actually getting to the edge properly, but is hitting the tips of the teeth more than the edge. a 10X-12X magnifying loupe is really useful when sharpening to really see the effect of your stroke.

If you sharpen the ground side and then just remove the burr, that works, but it is only one way to do it. If you sharpen both sides, in maybe a 3 -1 ratio, you will also get a very sharp edge, that is not quite as sharp, but is stronger. I don't think that there is any ONLY ONE way, as all of the expert opinions differ.

Since I invented the Sharpmaker and we were among the first to actually make serrated edges on folders in production, I have come up with the way I like to do it. But I'm sure you can modify your practice in the way that pleases you. That'a where the loupe comes in.

A properly sharped serrations will cut just about anything well from thread to paper to envelopes to heavy rope.

Re-serrating is different than sharpening.

sal

[skeeg11]

Formed wheel and dresser for the Resilience would be nice. :p Seriously, tho, some of the guys on a fishing forum I visit are starting to "get it". Sometimes I feel like a shameless shill. :D

https://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk ... t-16143258

[James Y]

Among the nicest out-of-box SE I've experienced have been my SE saber-ground D4, my SE Endela, and my SE Ladybug hawksbill Salt. The teeth were far less aggressive out of box; with less pointy teeth and with shallower scallops.

Jim