Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

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Airlsee
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#121

Post by Airlsee »

sal wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:40 pm
I would have to agree with Warstein, but I would add, let's not cut one seat belt, let'a cut 20.

sal

My first thought exactly...


If you are just an excellent sharpener with a properly toothy edge in an excellent steel, you may win the first couple "races" through the seat belt.

But in a real world scenario where your job is cutting people out of seat belts in life-threatening situations on a semi-regular basis. I would bet that anyone who has had more than 80 hours of experience will tell you, they would rather have a SE in H1 than your best day sharpening K390 in a PE.

Talking with such confidence in an area in which you are admittedly limited, comes through the screen as arrogant ignorance. Of course that's just my opinion, and no offense is intended. We're all entitled to, and here to voice our opinions and that's what makes this a forum.

I carry a PE knife most days, but I fully understand the "hype" behind a SE blade.


Edit to add: I just realized I responded to a month old post...oh well, carry on.
So it goes.
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#122

Post by Evil D »

I cut a folded seatbelt a while back, it's always surprising how easy SE makes the cut, even when doubled up.

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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#123

Post by metaphoricalsimile »

sal wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:09 pm
Funny, As I watch some of the experts and their videos, I find my self cringing at times.

"From the factory": (Metaphoricalsimile)

When we first began introducing serrated edges in the early 80's, it was a battle with factories for a good 10 years. Serrated edges are put on with a formed wheel. Each time the wheel is plunged into the the blade, the serrations are formed. Each time there is a little bit of wear on the wheel., which changes the shape slightly. When the shape changes too much, the wheel is dressed with a diamond dresser that reshapes the wheel. Most of the steels we use are quite hard and abrasive resistant so the wheels are dressed often, in some cases every 10 blades. Also keep in mind that the wheels are getting smaller as they wear and are dressed. So in reality, no two serrated blades are exactly the same. Factories like to start with deeper teeth so they can get more dressings before having to redress the wheel. That's why the Sharpmaker can be so useful. Rounding out the teeth a bit really helps with this "tuning". I was really impressed with David, because he went through all of the learning curves to get to the cheese at the end of the maze, and his explanations and pictures really helps explain the maze. That's why we keep it at the top.

When sharpening a serrated edge, we feel the Sharpmaker works best. The corner of a flat stone can be used, but in my opinion, the edge is less effective than if sharpened on a Sharpmaker. We developed the Sharpmaker with serrations and microscopes over a several year period. Tapered rods are, in my opinion, difficult to get there because if you don't stop the stroke at the exact location to fit the curve, you deform the edge.

It is important that you slow down the stroke down the stone if you really want to sharpen the edge, which is recessed between the teeth. If you go too fast, like the guy in the video above, I don't think he's actually getting to the edge properly, but is hitting the tips of the teeth more than the edge. a 10X-12X magnifying loupe is really useful when sharpening to really see the effect of your stroke.

If you sharpen the ground side and then just remove the burr, that works, but it is only one way to do it. If you sharpen both sides, in maybe a 3 -1 ratio, you will also get a very sharp edge, that is not quite as sharp, but is stronger. I don't think that there is any ONLY ONE way, as all of the expert opinions differ.

Since I invented the Sharpmaker and we were among the first to actually make serrated edges on folders in production, I have come up with the way I like to do it. But I'm sure you can modify your practice in the way that pleases you. That'a where the loupe comes in.

A properly sharped serrations will cut just about anything well from thread to paper to envelopes to heavy rope.

Re-serrating is different than sharpening.

sal
Oh wow now I'm imagining how fast they're going to go through grinding wheels with the new K390 full SE Enduras and Police :D
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#124

Post by mark greenman »

Over the last couple days I had a nice PE vs SE test while pruning the palm trees in my front yard.

Palm fronds are kind of a weird material. They're not quite wood, but they are not a grass or vine either. They have a hard exterior shell, and then a fiberrous inner core.

With PE, sharpened on the Gauntlet Fines, there is no slicing ability at all against the palm frond. The PE blade just slides off the frond. So to make the cut, I had to just press the PE blade straight through the frond, which a sharp FFG blade can do with enough force. I'd say ~50 lbs of pressure - not easy, not herculean.

Image

With SE, the fronds are easily defeated with a Saw Cut. The spikes of the SE penetrate the exterior hard shell, which forms a path for the scallops to get into the fiberrous inner material. With a couple easy back and forth Saw Strokes, the SE just blasted through the palm frond, using much less effort then press cutting through with the PE blade. It was so easy (and satisfying) that I ended up cutting the initial frond, and then trimmed off some other emerging leaf shoots.

Image

While I mostly carry PE knives, there is something extremely satisfying and reassuring about using a SE. I just know that any material I encounter, the SE is going to bite into.
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#125

Post by Wartstein »

sal wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:09 pm
.... Factories like to start with deeper teeth so they can get more dressings before having to redress the wheel. That's why the Sharpmaker can be so useful. Rounding out the teeth a bit really helps with this "tuning". ...

It is important that you slow down the stroke down the stone if you really want to sharpen the edge, which is recessed between the teeth. If you go too fast, like the guy in the video above, I don't think he's actually getting to the edge properly, but is hitting the tips of the teeth more than the edge. ...

...
1.) Very interesting, answers a question I´ve always had: Why do not all (at least more recent) SE models have the shallow, less aggressive SE pattern right from the factory?... This is really one explanation (it would require more redressing of the wheel in the factory

2.) Sal, the "guy in the video" is actually Vivi himself, who started the thread about sharpening SE (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84544) and linked the vid he made about that topic there.
I have to say: I have very good results both with the method you show in the instructional dvd, but also with sharpening SE the way Vivi shows it... I hope he´ll chime in, a discussion about this topic would be interesting to follow.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#126

Post by vivi »

I go slower and use more care than I did in that video. In trying to keep my presentation brief, I rushed things a bit.

Sal is right, go slower than I do in that video. Maybe I should film a new one.
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#127

Post by Wartstein »

vivi wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:34 pm
I go slower and use more care than I did in that video. In trying to keep my presentation brief, I rushed things a bit.

Sal is right, go slower than I do in that video. Maybe I should film a new one.

Many thanks, Vivi, for chiming in and clarifying that quickly!! :)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#128

Post by Wartstein »

Added to my post above:

- I do go slower on the sharpmaker anyway than you show in your vid: Reason is though, that by that I can keep the correct angle better, never thought of that this could be also important in order to hit the edge of an SE knife properly.

- I think the "removing only the burr- more acute angle" method works well for the high (steel-) quality Spyderco provides on its SE knives
While on lower end knives of other brands the method where both sides of an SE knife get sharpened with the same angle will probably be better suited?
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#129

Post by Leksy »

With softer blades like LC200n and H1 I use "double side sharpening".
With k390 serrations I would definitely use "one side - remove the burr" method. Can't wait for k390 SE, really.

Are there any clues about shipping date of k390 SE knives?
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#130

Post by curlyhairedboy »

I think I'm pretty lucky that my SE caribbean came with 'worn' tips from the factory. I need to spend some time with my Dfly to get it to the same point.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Damasteel Urban, Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, Sage 5 LW, Serrated Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, XHP Shaman, M4/Micarta Shaman, 15v Shaman
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#131

Post by Razor G43 »

I am buying more serrated spyderco's since learning to sharpen them on the sharpmaker. Those serrations will flat out cut, and this from someone who use to say I don't like serrations.
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#132

Post by Ramonade »

I chose a particular blade shape for my first SE knife. A Hawkbill.
This is a blade shape that allows for a lot of things. First, it retains the material very well, and even better with teeth !
I've noticed that my Endela SE and it's belly is far less good at keeping its teeth on the various materials I cut than the Hawkbill.

The hawkbill is more of a teethed claw !

Edit to add something : Before learning about Spyderco, I wouldn't ever have considered buying a serrated knife. Where I'm from, these kind of knives are linked to ninja mall kinda quality. It's learning about the company and their processus of creation that I started to wonder. Why would they offer that many knives in a serrated option if there was no functionality ?
And then I informed myself some more, totally thanks to this forum.
Last edited by Ramonade on Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#133

Post by Razor G43 »

PeaceInOurTime wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:04 am
awa54 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:42 am
(snark/rant alert; all who might be triggered, please set your safety now :) ) ...

If I may, I think a reason why the proponents of SE are so outspoken on this forum is because every other forum and social media source is basically anti-SE. Most people haven't even given it a chance and never will. PE fans have the entire internet to be pro-PE (including here). I don't even try to talk about SE on bladeforums.

SE fans on this forum are just trying to help people discover the benefits of good serrations. No one says you have to like SE, it cuts differently than PE and that can be a big turn off for some. The fact is, there is alot of misinformation about SE and this forum is a great place to "set the record straight".

While I have a hard time imagining going back to primarily carrying PE, I do still like it and carry it occasionally. Sometimes I prefer the way it cuts in certain situations, but IME, the overall performance of SE is why it's my main carry.

I apologize if I have ever "pushed" SE on anyone here. Everyone's experience and situations are different and valid.
I think this say's it all!
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#134

Post by vivi »

I was one of the bigger proponents of SE here and I've mostly gone back to PE.

Ever since running really coarse edges I feel a PE is the best of both worlds. Aggressive slicing due to the microserrated edge, but never snags like SE sometimes can and I have a wider range of sharpening media to work with.

Off the top of my head I can't think of anything I cut on a day to day basis that requires either edge type. Either can work for my uses just fine.
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#135

Post by Bloke »

Ramonade wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:07 am
I chose a particular blade shape for my first SE knife. A Hawkbill. ...
If there’s a knife or blade shape out there that outperforms a sharp serrated hawkbill, I wish someone would tell me about it. ;)
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#136

Post by Kevinim82 »

Bloke wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:55 pm
Ramonade wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:07 am
I chose a particular blade shape for my first SE knife. A Hawkbill. ...
If there’s a knife or blade shape out there that outperforms a sharp serrated hawkbill, I wish someone would tell me about it. ;)
Bloke I consider you a well verse guy in blade shapes. A cutting edge dude… you didn’t eye the latest knife shape sharper than a hawkbill in style and performance? Now I think your just a dense hotdog…
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#137

Post by Bloke »

Kevinim82 wrote:
Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:32 pm
Bloke I consider you a well verse guy in blade shapes. A cutting edge dude… you didn’t eye the latest knife shape sharper than a hawkbill in style and performance? Now I think your just a dense hotdog…
Ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha!

Being Australian, I’d rather go a dogs eye with dead horse (you may need to google that :winking-tongue ) over a hotdog. Ah, hahaha! :smlling-eyes

Either ways, that’s a fine looking knife. :cheap-sunglasses
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#138

Post by cabfrank »

Meat pie and tomato sauce?
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Wartstein
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#139

Post by Wartstein »

vivi wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:38 pm
I was one of the bigger proponents of SE here and I've mostly gone back to PE.

Ever since running really coarse edges I feel a PE is the best of both worlds. Aggressive slicing due to the microserrated edge, but never snags like SE sometimes can and I have a wider range of sharpening media to work with.

Off the top of my head I can't think of anything I cut on a day to day basis that requires either edge type. Either can work for my uses just fine.

Well, you are actually one of the bigGEST proponents of convincing me trying out SE... and now I also really like my "(Coarse) Vivi edge for dummies" - achieved by just using the CBN rods of the SM sometimes followed by just one or two strokes per side on the brown rods.

Yes, SE CAN snag - but the really mellow versions of it (...Endela SE..) really don´t in my experience.

Some thoughts what might perhaps still speak for SE over coarse PE (partly just assumptions though, never really tested that)

- the "points" of SE have a better "initial penetration" / "piercing power" and so are better at initiating a cut for example on things like plastic bottles when one does not start the cut by stabbing the tip of the blade in first (but admittedly: Why NOT do this?) and perhaps also better when cutting stuff like tomatoes and the surface has to be "broken up" first?

- the "points" of SE will also protect and preserve the cutting edge (in the scallops) better when cutting on a board, while a coarse edge will still make full contact with that board

- With SE one could combine an actually really polished cutting edge with the advantages a coarse PE edge offers (cause the teeth are still kind of very "coarse")

- SE effectively offers more cutting edge than PE in the exact same blade
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Picked up my first SE knife... I don't get the hype.

#140

Post by Bloke »

cabfrank wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:40 am
Meat pie and tomato sauce?
Hey cab, you pegged it. You sure you’re not an Aussie? Ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha! :winking-tongue
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin
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