Endura sized knife with finger choil

[Evil D]

Yea, I'm in this camp too, though anytime someone mentions it around here everyone has to shout the idea down - go figure.

I'm guilty of fighting on both sides of these debates. I'd be all for doing away with every ricasso on planet Earth in favor of handle forward designs like the Rock Jumper, but I've also been on the defense when talking about changing the Military. I guess we all fear change in something.

[Wartstein]

Yea, I'm in this camp too, though anytime someone mentions it around here everyone has to shout the idea down - go figure.

I'm guilty of fighting on both sides of these debates. I'd be all for doing away with every ricasso on planet Earth in favor of handle forward designs like the Rock Jumper, but I've also been on the defense when talking about changing the Military. I guess we all fear change in something.

What I "fear" is not change, but loss of variety.
Or that people who like a certain feature try to have this on every Spydie out there.
Imagine if the Endura family became yet another finger choil series:,Nothing left for those who value ricassos.
I'd like Spyderco to remain a maker who has something for everyone: Edge to the handle, ricasso, choil... :)

[Evil D]

Yea, I'm in this camp too, though anytime someone mentions it around here everyone has to shout the idea down - go figure.

I'm guilty of fighting on both sides of these debates. I'd be all for doing away with every ricasso on planet Earth in favor of handle forward designs like the Rock Jumper, but I've also been on the defense when talking about changing the Military. I guess we all fear change in something.

What I "fear" is not change, but loss of variety.
Or that people who like a certain feature try to have this on every Spydie out there.
Imagine if the Endura family became yet another finger choil series:,Nothing left for those who value ricassos.
I'd like Spyderco to remain a maker who has something for everyone: Edge to the handle, ricasso, choil... :)

I would say most people don't see what a ricasso can do that a choil can't do better, if they're the same size and you can put your finger on both, why not shape the ricasso into a choil and make the ergonomics feel better?

I don't see Spyderco changing their formula so much that the Delica/Endura lose their ricasso so I think you'll get what you want, but I also think if they continue designing knives like the Rock Jumper that these new designs will dominate sales and eventually put the ricasso knives out of production. I think if they made three knives in Delica/Endela/Endura size but made the handles like the Rock Jumper, that would be the end for those three models whether it's their intention of getting rid of them or not.

But hey, that's just my opinion and what do I know? Time will tell. They probably deliberately made the Rock Jumper a size that doesn't directly compete with the Delica on purpose so it doesn't compete with sales, and the Cliff Jumper and Sequoia may not directly compete with the Endura so maybe they'll all live in harmony together.

[Matus]

In my opinion (purely based on what I saw online, no first hand experience) the way the finger choil is designed on Kapara is the way to go. It is there without sacrificing more than just few mm from the cutting edge (or in other words - not making the handle unnecessarily long on knives with larger blades). The main reason I did not get the Kapara instead of Chief is the rather thin (narrow) handle ... and OK, ste steel too, but it is a very interesting concept I hope to see more in the future 'choiled' modes.

[Wartstein]

....

[/highlight]
What I "fear" is not change, but loss of variety.
Or that people who like a certain feature try to have this on every Spydie out there.
Imagine if the Endura family became yet another finger choil series:,Nothing left for those who value ricassos.
I'd like Spyderco to remain a maker who has something for everyone: Edge to the handle, ricasso, choil... :)

I would say most people don't see what a ricasso can do that a choil can't do better, if they're the same size and you can put your finger on both, why not shape the ricasso into a choil and make the ergonomics feel better?

I don't see Spyderco changing their formula so much that the Delica/Endura lose their ricasso so I think you'll get what you want, but I also think if they continue designing knives like the Rock Jumper that these new designs will dominate sales and eventually put the ricasso knives out of production. I think if they made three knives in Delica/Endela/Endura size but made the handles like the Rock Jumper, that would be the end for those three models whether it's their intention of getting rid of them or not.
......

Well, the most important thing a ricasso does better than a choil: It lets the hand sit a lot closer to the edge when the knife is gripped on the actual handle - a ricasso has no "handle part" like a choil and is additionally often even shorter on the blade than the blade part of a choil:
For me a huge plus: I find the hand too far from the edge on pretty much all fingerchoil Spydies when not choking up.
Not so on the Endura. Here I can use the actual handle just fine and my hand is close enough to the edge.

Now add
.....that a ricasso still offers an unsharpened bit of blade for those who like to let that part drop on their forefinger when closing the knife...
... and most times sacrifices a bit less cutting edge...
... and does not shorten the actual handle (a choil can imho make the FRN/G10 part of the handle behind the choil too short unnecessarily (Native 5, Para 3..)
...and that it actually offers a perfect place to choke up on (for me at least, for more see below)
then you might see why I think the ricasso generally is superior (for me!) over a choil. :)

/ Excursion: Choking up on a ricasso

For me this is another one of those things I just could not help learning from my own experience:
Always thought choking up on a dedicated choil must be better than on a ricasso (seems logic too!) but in my use it just was not (much like the comp. lock turned out to be not better than the linerlock for me, or PE turned out to be not more versatile than SE though I was totally prepared for both)

- For me a ricasso certainly is not more comfortable than a choil (this would be weird), but not uncomfortable at all, especially in the typical folder use (not for an hour or so held choked up)
- It turned out to not be less safe either
- And, biggest plus: Choking up on a ricasso turned out to give me more control and stability than on most (not all) choils.
(For me Native vs Delica is the best example: When just held choked up on choil resp. ricasso, the Native feels a lot better - but in harder use the Native starts to be less stable and controllable when held choked up than the Delica choked up (on the ricasso))

I really think "choking up on the ricasso" is a thing people should "try to try" totally unbiased:
- Many will still prefer a choil, no doubt
- But I think (IF totally unbiased!) some will see how well and safe a ricasso actually works for choking up, plus learn to value the additional advantages it offers...

[Matus]

@Warstein - some very good points and insights

[Bill1170]

I love a blade whose edge comes all the way to the handle, like the Caribbean. However, I wouldn’t ask the Endura to go that direction. The Endura is great the way it is.

[Dazen]

The Jade kills it for me, I wish BHQ would find a new color to go with their M4.

[kennethsime]

Of course I give my opinion on this whenever a newer member or someone who might not be here frequently brings up the "Endura choil thing" again... just like you always state that you'd like the idea. Both fine, both perhaps interesting for the newer members who"d like to discuss this (for them for the first time) :)

But I'd ask you in all friendliness: Please think about what would happen if the Endura would become yet another finger choil knife: Practically no ricasso choice left, but in return the zillion and first option for the choil-folks...

(Same goes for the finger grooves which I happen to like)

In the end, I think we're agreed - for folks who like the ricasso, leave it well enough alone. I'd still like a 3" and a 3.75" choil & palm swell option though. :-)