Steel lockbar inserts: necessary or not?

[Gtscotty]

I voted option 1, because as a mechanical engineer it theoretically bothers me to have a 60-62 HRC steel to ~40 HRC Ti direct contact point that has precise dimensional requirements as well as the potential for reasonably high bearing stress and wear (particularly in the hard use and "knives as fidget toys" crowds). Add in the fact that Ti has a propensity to gall, and I just don't think it's the right way to do things. However, it is a lower cost way to do things, and like steel slides on aluminum pistol frames, Ti lock bars do seem to work alright most of the time. I haven't really had any issues with my Chokwe other than it being a little sticky, but a proper steel insert would be a requirement on a top end knife for me.

As for the corrosion issue, I believe Quiet Carry uses an LC200N insert in their Drift as the contact point for the Vanax blade. Obviously a much more expensive solution, but probably better, and still effectively corrosion proof in almost all realistic scenarios.

[The Meat man]

I didn’t vote, because I have questions.

I have yet to experience a ruined lock-face. None of my RILs has an insert. My Tusk and Techno2 are at 55% and my SpydieChef is at 80%, but my Sage2 (which I carried exclusively for over a year) is at 95%! :eek:

So, some naive questions.

When a lock-bar reaches 100%, does it want to proceed beyond, say across the space created by a washer? Once the lock-bar finally hits resistance on the opposite “scale”, will the blade remain tight or will it proceed to get vertical play?

It's certainly possible to get vertical blade play in that scenario. Once the lockbar has traveled as far as it can go against the opposite scale, there remains no more room to wedge against the blade anymore. If the pivot/stop pin wears or wiggles in any way there will be blade play.

If it remains tight, how then is the lock-face ruined?

As long as it remains tight, I don't think it'd be ruined in any sense. But it won't be able to take any additional wear without strting to introduce blade play.

If lock-rock ensues, how can it occur if the lock-face and the blade no longer rub when deploying, thus reaching a kind of equilibrium?

Again, if there is some flex in the pivot or stop pin you will get vertical play since the lockface isn't wedging tightly against the blade anymore.

I should add that I do have a linerlock knife in which the lockbar, after years of use, has traveled all the way to the opposite scale. It's got some vertical blade play because of this.

[JacksonKnives]

If lock-rock ensues, how can it occur if the lock-face and the blade no longer rub when deploying, thus reaching a kind of equilibrium?

Again, if there is some flex in the pivot or stop pin you will get vertical play since the lockface isn't wedging tightly against the blade anymore.

I should add that I do have a linerlock knife in which the lockbar, after years of use, has traveled all the way to the opposite scale. It's got some vertical blade play because of this.

IME, replacing the stop pin is far easier than replacing a lockbar insert on an old knife.

I would happily take a small bag of spare inserts for my favourite knives, of course, but let's face it: no manufacturer offers replacement inserts.

Now, as to titanium wearing faster than the steel in the lockface... Sure, in theory.

But the only knives I own that have worn past 50% lockup (at which point IME it's a better-functioning lock and not something to complain about) are an early '90s linerlock with a steel liner (from another company) and a stainless-framelock Spyderco Cricket. I suspect that in either case replacing the stop pin would give me another 30 years of pleasurable use; even as they are they're still reliable.

[Abyss_Fish]

My spydiechef’s bar mushroomed out after about a year of use, and the blade started developing up and down play. I had to get the lock interface carbidized to keep the knife functioning any longer.

I won’t be buying a Ti framelock without any sort of lock interface again. Just like with Teflon washers or steel detent balls, there are simply better technologies and techniques available.

[Henry_P]

Completely unnecessary, in my opinion, if the knife was made correctly. Case in point, Chris Reeve Knives has been successfully making and selling Ti framelocks for three decades without needing to add a steel insert.

I was thinking about CRK when I made this thread. Those knives have been used and abused as you say for decades and I've never heard any complaints about lockface wear. Quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.

Even CRK uses ceramic balls now for their locks. They must believe it’s an improvement otherwise they wouldn’t have made the change.

[kobold]

Everything about RILs:
viewtopic.php?t=63964

[kobold]

Completely unnecessary, in my opinion, if the knife was made correctly. Case in point, Chris Reeve Knives has been successfully making and selling Ti framelocks for three decades without needing to add a steel insert.

I was thinking about CRK when I made this thread. Those knives have been used and abused as you say for decades and I've never heard any complaints about lockface wear. Quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.

Even CRK uses ceramic balls now for their locks. They must believe it’s an improvement otherwise they wouldn’t have made the change.

Companies often do things simply because people demand it, or to cut production and warranty costs.

[dsvirsky]

My spydiechef’s bar mushroomed out after about a year of use, and the blade started developing up and down play. I had to get the lock interface carbidized to keep the knife functioning any longer.

I won’t be buying a Ti framelock without any sort of lock interface again. Just like with Teflon washers or steel detent balls, there are simply better technologies and techniques available.

Well, yes. If you're going to flick open your knives with enough force to cause plastic deformation, you need a steel lock interface.

And there's nothing wrong with Teflon washers. Just sayin'

[curlyhairedboy]

I believe titanium - as a knife handle material - is mainly used for strength while maintaining relative lightness; in special cases it’s used for corrosion resistance.

I have personally worn out a Spyderco Southard frame lock without an insert to the point of significant lock rock, which on a frame lock I consider a failure mode of the locking mechanism.

That said, getting a lock interface right is tough, and titanium’s relative stickiness helps. There has been a trend in recent Taichung frame locks with inserts where the knives exhibit lock slip under gentle continuous closing pressure. This wasn’t an issue on older Taichung models with inserts like the mantra series, so it’s a newer development, hopefully remedied soon. I consider lock slip to also be a failure mode.

I’ve mostly switched over to compression locks for their durability and superior physical arrangement (long axis compression forces vs short axis compression forces).

[LC Kid]

Hi Folks!


I'll begin saying I'm a big RIL fan. My 3 most used Spydies are the Techno, the Slysz Bowie and the Sage 2. Use them in rotation A Lot in the field and all are around 35-40% lock face.

But also have a couple of Sebenzas and another Hinderer trio, all of them 100% functional after years of heavy field use as well.

So, at least for me, the lock bar insert is a brilliant solution for a non existing problem, meaning my vote goes for I don't care about it :D

But since there's a lot of hype about it, and a huge bunch of so called influencers claiming for it well... last time I checked there's an Economic Law that clearly states that as long as there's demand someone will supply it... :rolleyes:

[Jason Paul]

OK - late to the party here.

I'm considering a Spydiechef, which would be my first framelock. So in reading up on it, I ended up also reading a bit about lockstick, lockup, and lockbar inserts, so here I am.

Quick question on this - what about a titanium lockbar insert?

That way it would still be titanium for corrosion resistance, but if/when the lockbar insert wears down too much, you could just replace the insert.

Jason

[kobold]

I say not if done right. The Ti lockbar can / should be hardened (HT just with a normal torch).

[Lucabrasi]

I’m in the process of acquiring means to carbidize my lock faces without inserts. My Chef is already well past 50 percent lockup, probably closer to 80. My southard isn’t but I’m sure will be in time.

I still don’t understand the resistance to this. I have seen no justification for this claiming that the lack of insert is superior in someway, just claims that it’s not necessary to have an insert. But in my own experience and seemingly those of many others it is simply superior construction that will give the knife a longer usable life and make it more likely to function properly during that life. I shouldn’t be having to modify knives in this price range that were acquired in the last two years in order for them to function properly in the long term. It can’t add that much cost. I repeat, I don’t understand the resistance.

[James Y]

You can take my opinion on this with a grain of salt, because the only ti framelocks I own are CRKs, five, to be exact. Only one of them has the ceramic ball at the lockbar/blade tang interface.

Although I don't use it as often now, I extensively used my first Sebenza, bought new 19 years ago, for years, and TBH, the lockbar's position hasn't moved across any further at all than when it was new. I also used my 2015 Insingo 21 a lot, which hasn't moved across beyond about 50%, same as when it came out of the box. Neither has developed any blade play at all, either. I can't comment on the other three, because they haven't seen as much use.

I would never say no to lock bar inserts, because again, those CRKs are the only ti framelocks I own, or plan on owning. I would say that inserts would probably be an advantage on some companies' frame locks. But I really have no strong opinion one way or another.

Jim

[Sharp Guy]

One thing I completely forgot in support of the "is it necessary" argument, is due to the nature of usage of most Spyderco knives where the user "Spydie-flicks", it may lead to premature wear on the lockbar interface. I know I'm guilty of it with my Slyszs.

Those Spydie-flicks might also mean more issues with lock stick since you're jamming the lock face into the tang with more force than if you opened the blade normally.

[Sharp Guy]

That's a good point: steel inserts are generally replaceable.

Of course, there's the question of whether or not anyone has ever needed to replace one, but I agree better to have it and not need it than the other way around.

I was just wondering about this. I'm pro-lock bar insert and think it's generally a good thing. But I've also never seen anyone say they had to send their knife in to have the lock bar insert changed. I'm sure it happens otherwise there would be no need to use the inserts in the first place.

One feature I like about the lock bar inserts is that it's easier to change the detent ball if necessary

[on_the_edge]

Without arguing that a steel insert is preferable or not, I will say that I have never noticed the need for one on my knives that have titanium lockbars, namely a CRK and a Scott Cook Lochsa, both of which are users.

[skeeg11]

LUV my CRK and Lochsa, too. Dunno about wear on the Lochsa (#11)) as I don't use it a lot. :D

No appreciable or noticeable wear on my CRK or SpydiecChef, either.