Is this normal for MAXAMET?

[anycal]

How much variation is there when it comes to making steel, and making the final product? I have no idea, so feel free to point me to some information on this topic. I also have no idea how raw materials are transformed into a blade on a pocket knife, other than skimming over some articles and seeing some footage of part of the process.

Here are my points and assumptions, which could be completely off.

I assume that powder metallurgy produces a more consistent steel. The raw materials are blended together and sintered, and formed into something (sheet?) which is ready for the next step. Is this an exact science? Is it possible that a section of the steel has slightly different properties than a different section of the same sheet some feet/yards away? What about the edge of the sheet vs the center of the sheet? Is it possible that one batch is slightly different than another batch produced months apart?

Then the knife maker gets the steel. The blades are cut, shaped, heat treated - no idea what the order is - and eventually sharpened. Is this an exact science? The machines involved in the process need to be calibrated. If there is variation of the many manufacturing tools used in the process from when they are certified to the end of their calibration cycle, I would assume this would create some variation. Is it possible that a blade being heat treated in the center of the rack will go through the process slightly differently than a blade placed on the edge. Same for the tempering process. And, if that original sheet of steel had some discrepancy, I can only imagine that any variation in the knife manufacturing process would exacerbate any inconsistencies in the final product.

In a mass production process, you can't test and QC every inch of a sheet of steel. Just like you cant test and QC every blade to make sure it has the desired properties. But perhaps good enough where most of us get what is advertised.

So, how much variation is there in the advertised properties of our pocket knives when it comes to toughness and edge retention properties? How many of us could even tell?

These thoughts don't keep me awake at night, but I am curious

[RustyIron]

You got me curious, so I snapped a pic of my only Maxamet blade. The discolorations aren't visible to the naked eye. I had to examine much of the blade before I could find a concentration of these phenomena.

[JRinFL]

I found and checked my Native 5 Maxamet and it also does not have those pits of grind lines in the OP first post. Both of mine were from the first run of LW Maxamet knives. Maybe there was a change at the foundry?

[Josh Crutchley]

The link I provided (which hopefully either shows a picture or will take you to the picture) is a 40X magnification of a NATIVE 5 LW in MAXAMET taken from an OMAX compound microscope (did not feel like going to the lab just take take these photos).

As you can see (hopefully), there are many "pits" that are mostly similar in size. My PARA 2 in MAXAMET also shows the same "pits" or "indents".

The pic was taken the day I received it. I contacted the distributor that I purchased it from (I am not sure if I am allowed to specify the distributor, but they are an official Spyderco Distributor) and they have not been able to assist in a way that provided any answers.

If this is a sign of corrosion, then I will no longer use the distributor since they provide sub-optimal products and refuse to enforce their customer service. I am sincerely hoping that is not the case and all MAXAMET blades have this when new.

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to help!!

Mine looked like that too even on the bevel when I get home I post my pics.

[DSH007]

Intrigued by this thread, I checked out both of my Maxamet knives tonight.. a Native LW and the Maxamet Sage 1.. I couldn't see the discoloration/corrosion marks on either of my knives with a 20x loupe.. I don't have any more advanced magnification than that though.. not to say it isn' there..

[Sharp Guy]

Intrigued by this thread, I checked out both of my Maxamet knives tonight.. a Native LW and the Maxamet Sage 1.. I couldn't see the discoloration/corrosion marks on either of my knives with a 20x loupe.. I don't have any more advanced magnification than that though.. not to say it isn' there..

I saw mine with the a 10X loupe. The pic I posted was with my phone camera zoomed in. Might've also been under a magnifying light. Can't remember for sure

[rezman2115]

grinding marks I'd guess.

If I was you I'd put down the microscope until I figured out what is important, a defect or unimportant tooling marks. You can drive yourself crazy looking at "imperfections" through a scope that really aren't problems.

I appreciate your concern, but as someone who uses a microscope 15+ hours a week and is a large part of my life, I am afraid this is an impossibility. Not to mention I just thoroughly enjoy exploring life on a microscopic scale.

As far as the reason I was looking through it in the first place, I ALWAYS look at brand new tools to see if they can be trusted. For example, I check every spyderco around the thumb hole to make sure there arent any micro-cracks that could lead to catastrophic failure. Once I noticed something that essentially looked, to me, like corrosion (which is most definitely in the category that could cause problems down the line) I decided to receive input. Funny enough though, I noticed these because I wanted to check out the variations in the spyderco logo since it was my first model from Colorado (the logo is usually etched differently from different origins).

Thanks for your reply

[rezman2115]

I wonder how other steels would look at 40x magnification. I'm not sure what "normal" is supposed to look like. For me personally, I wouldn't be concerned, but everyone has different tolerances. I keep my tool steels coated with EDCi and they have no corrosion, at least at the eye level. I guess my main question would be if you have looked at other steels under the same magnification and how do they compare?

Great question, and yes. I look at every single knife I receive as soon as I take it out of the box. I have examined (and photographed) the following, if you are interested:

- Maxamet (duh)
- CPM - M4 (with and without coating from numerous manufacturers)
- S30V (multiple manufacturers)
- S35VN (multiple manufacturers)
- D2
- CPM D2
- ZDP-189 (multiple manufacturers)
- S110V (multiple manufacturers)
- S90V
- M390 (multiple manufacturers)
- K390
- 1095CV
- AUS-8
- Many, many of 440C

I have pics of varying magnifications. If you are interested at all, let me know. If I dont have it I will snap a new one (only takes a few minutes). And no, I have never had one look like the two maxamets I currently own.

[rezman2115]

To be clear: I am not a steel expert.

But to see if I got this right: The knife in a non stainless steel you received shows no signs of corrosion at all when looking at it without magnification, but some minor corrosion in 40x magnification with a microscope, right?

If so: I personally think this is just normal, at least with a non stainless steal - can´t be prevented by a dealer that stores the knife, and can´t be expected that they can... I mean they could not even see it without a microscope, right?

I could be wrong though and I certainly respect your opinion on this

I did not notice anything prior to inspection, but then again I was not trying to. In fact, the only reason I noticed this is because I was checking out the Logo's unique etching.

However, if it is corrosion (and not normal for the steel), then it is greatly concerning. Corrosion is, in a sense, a cancer for steels. It is best to noticed it ASAP so it can be "fixed" before too much is required. And with a steel like MAXAMET, grinding even 200 microns of steel from each side to thin the blade and remove corrosion would require an immense amount of labor. Which is why I am hoping it is, in fact, normal for the steel.

Thanks for the reply. I am hoping your thoughts are on point

[rezman2115]

How does it look to the naked eye? This knife has a stonewash finish, yes? .. I'm thinking maybe that's what we're seeing under such intense magnification? The markings do appear to be pretty uniform..

That is what I am hoping for. The red flag occured when I looked at other knives with stonewash and did not show any similar "markings". Then again, MAXAMET is a unique steel so I decided to receive input rather than make assumptions based on my limited knowledge pertaining to the metallurgical artform.

Thanks for your reply

[rezman2115]

We need a picture without magnification...

I THINK I understand why you are requesting it (to determine the severity of a potential future malfunction or to see "if it matters"), but to play it safe.....why?

If I understand correctly, then it does matter quite a bit. This is because, if it IS corrosion (and I still hope it is not), then it is best to find it and take the necessary steps at first signs (like under 40X magnification) rather than wait for it to be visible to the naked eye (which it is not except for more of a grayish coloration to the metal rather than a silver or metallic). With a steel like Maxamet that is HT to 65+, grinding away any corrosion would be a chore that I would rather not have to deal.with.

If you just want to see a picture of the knives (PARA 2 and NATIVE 5 LW) because you enjoy looking at them (I 100% understand that too), then I would be happy to comply and post some.

Thanks for the reply

[rezman2115]

Your photo doesn’t show any discernible rust. Steel corrosion -> rust.

Not exactly true. An electrochemical reaction can occur without "rust" through some interactions with certain chlorides. So rust is corrosion, but corrosion is not necessarily rust (which is technically the process when iron is presented to oxygen and moisture).

Also, remember the pic is 40X magnification. (10X eyepiece with 4X objective lens). Things looks much differently at that level.

Thanks for your reply

[JRinFL]

So I bought an inexpensive LCD digital microscope from Amazon and took another look and my two Maxamet knives. I do see more pits than before, however they are clean and do not appear black as the OP's picture shows. Pits appear at the ground edge as well which seem to indicate there are voids in the steel. Appearance varies greatly based on the quality and direction of the light on the subject. As you can see, mine does not display the parallel lines. Also note, mine has a coating of mineral oil on it. The yellowish oily hairs are lint from the cloth I used to apply the oil.

If the OP is up to it, I would suggest a thorough cleaning of the blade and new pictures.

Pits on edge, Native 5 Maxamet

Native 5 Maxamet near Spyder logo

Manix Maxamet near Spyder logo.

Edited for shpellin'

[Gtscotty]

So I bought an inexpensive LCD digital microscope from Amazon and took another look and my two Maxamet knives. I do see more pits than before, however they are clean and do not appear black as the OP's picture shows. Pits appear at the ground edge as well which seem to indicate there are voids in the steel. Appearance varies greatly based on the quality and direction of the light on the subject. As you can see, mine does not display the parallel lines. Also note, mine has a coating of mineral oil on it. The yellowish oily hairs are lint from the cloth I used to apply the oil.

If the OP is up to it, I would suggest a thorough cleaning of the blade and new pictures.

NativeMaxametedge.jpegNative5Maxametlogo.jpegManixMaxametnearlogo.jpeg


Edited for shpellin'

Is that the factory edge, or have you sharpened it?

[JRinFL]

That the factory edge.

[z1r]

Makes me wonder if I really want a Maxamet blade now? If not, what is the next best alternative?

[lilshaver]

Soooo.... this brings up the question, is Maxamet really made out of date expired swiss cheese?
Hope not because now I have to check my Native 5.

[Karl_H]

I wouldn’t consider myself an expert on this topic, but I think it’s quite common for high carbide steels to have these types of “blemishes”.

Based on my understanding, I think the most likely explanation is that these microscopic “craters” are formed during grinding, as larger carbides and inclusions are torn away from the matrix.

If significant corrosion did occur, after manufacturing, you would see rust. Since there is little to no rust in these “craters”, it is clear to me that there is really no significant ongoing corrosion.

As far as I am aware the only functional issue that you really have to look out for on Maxamet are quench cracks. However, I would be surprised if any blades with quench cracks ever leave the factory.

I wouldn’t worry about these microscopic craters. They are probably unavoidable blemishes when grinding Maxamet.

[Sharp Guy]

Makes me wonder if I really want a Maxamet blade now? If not, what is the next best alternative?

Why not? Mine cuts like crazy regardless of the tiny pinholes

[JRinFL]

Maxamet is very hard and will hold an edge extremely well, but it was never designed to be pretty. 420HC will polish up very nicely if that is what you are looking for. If you are concerned with corrosion just put wax or oil on the blade. Even Vasoline and Carmex will work.
The OP was just trying to determine if what he was seeing was normal, and it appears to be that it is normal to some extent for Maxamet.