Change my mind: the Shaman costs too much

[Paraguy]

Hmm... It seems like the main argument for the higher price is the amount of material. This makes sense more material more cost. Not sure if its 55 plus dollars more. But it does make a little more sense why they would charge more.

[JRinFL]

Based on Sal's comments, he never expected it to be a big seller and was really a pet project that he wanted to get out into the market. I don't believe that it was ever meant to appeal to the broad market, and it did not until the Cru-carta version dropped. It does seem expensive for what it is, but low volume products are often priced high as there is no economy of scale and the "setup" costs are spread over a much smaller number of units. There is no free lunch.

[kennethsime]

We all have our hangups. I think the Para 2 has been outclassed by several models and is obsolete but the sales keep on coming which suggests I'm probably wrong and this is just my opinion. Your take on the Shaman is likely the same.

I carried my PM2 for the first time in awhile the other day, and was surprised by how nimble it felt - I've been carrying the Shaman and the Military lately, and the dexterity offered by the PM2 was surprising.

There probably are better knives out there, but I still like mine plenty.

[Paraguy]

We all have our hangups. I think the Para 2 has been outclassed by several models and is obsolete but the sales keep on coming which suggests I'm probably wrong and this is just my opinion. Your take on the Shaman is likely the same.

Which models in your opinion? Id probably say that the para3 is more usable for most people.

[Evil D]

Hmm... It seems like the main argument for the higher price is the amount of material. This makes sense more material more cost. Not sure if its 55 plus dollars more. But it does make a little more sense why they would charge more.

Materials and the cost of machining those materials, but I also suspect Jim's comment about lower production could be part of it too.


At the end if the day if we all agree it's over priced, what changes? Nothing. You still either buy it or you don't. Personally I did hold out for a sprint before I got my wallet out so again we all have our standards.

[Paraguy]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

Support your claim. My mind isn't changed.
If the Shaman was 180 Id probably buy one.
Do you mean to say you'd spend 300 on a s30v Shaman?

Sorry if this sounded harsh Evil D. It's tricky when you're typing and not speaking.

[Evil D]

We all have our hangups. I think the Para 2 has been outclassed by several models and is obsolete but the sales keep on coming which suggests I'm probably wrong and this is just my opinion. Your take on the Shaman is likely the same.

Which models in your opinion? Id probably say that the para3 is more usable for most people.

Are we talking about "most people" or are we talking about ourselves? Para 3 is just a smaller version of something I'm not interested in so it's more of the same.

Giving you all the knives I like over the Para 2 is just more opinions which is pretty much all we have here so far. What point is there in debating what I like and am willing to pay for vs you?

[Evil D]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

Support your claim. My mind isn't changed.
If the Shaman was 180 Id probably buy one.
Do you mean to say you'd spend 300 on a s30v Shaman?

Sorry if this sounded harsh Evil D. It's tricky when you're typing and not speaking.

Nah didn't take it as harsh.


What I know is that Sal has said that prices reflect manufacturing costs, with the exception of the Manix 2 which was sold at a low cost/high production thing which was why it was initially ~$30 less than a Para 2. You either trust that Sal is being honest or you think he's price gouging.

[benben]

We all have our hangups. I think the Para 2 has been outclassed by several models and is obsolete but the sales keep on coming which suggests I'm probably wrong and this is just my opinion. Your take on the Shaman is likely the same.

After all these years I'm just now trying the PM2 model, never owned one before! Just recently bought two exclusives out of a guys huge collection, a Green 204P and a Red M390, they still didn't wow me at all at first. But after carrying them both for a couple months now, I'm really loving them! Exactly the same way I was with the Serrated Pacific Salt, years late to that party as well! :rolleyes:

I did already have the original Paramilitary and a Cru-Wear PM3 so I was already used to the design. And here you go letting the new air out of my sails calling my PM2's outclassed, I'm going home now!

Trust me, the Shaman and the Caribbean are both one my "to purchase" spreadsheet list I keep going, along with probably 20 others!

[ladybug93]

I never understood the Shaman hype. A bulky chunk of steel, thick behind the edge... it feels and looks like an unfinished design. People(some) rave about its ergos and they may be right but that’s all it is. As much as I like Sal’s designs I must say it ... this one needs more work. I would never pay 200+ for that ugly knife.

Elena, have you held one in hand?

I wasn't big on it either, but managed to snag a Z-Wear Micarta sprint, and I'm glad I did. It's a fantastic hard-use knife, more comfortable for tasks where a PM2 might develop hotspots.

I wouldn't say it's a better EDC than a PM2, but it has its place.

i held one fully expecting it to kick the manix out of my pocket. not even close. i know people complain about the squareness of the manix handles, but it's a much better design in my opinion. i think it's a much better knife all around.

i've also never understood the hype and cost of the shaman and have said as much quite often here. when i held one, it was only a little more expensive than the manix and i didn't like it more. now, there's no way. and i get there is more production cost, but it can't possibly be that much more. and it's not materials, because the yo2 is just as thick blade stock and costs the same as the manix despite having the same materials and lock as the shaman. i don't see it. and, when i did want an overbuilt folder, i wanted one that was actually really overbuilt, hence the 4max scout in my pocket now, which was also about half the cost (granted, in lesser materials, but a stronger lock and materials that are probably better suited for a hard use outdoors knife).

that isn't to say the shaman isn't a good knife. it's just not for me. i personally don't like it at all, but that's one of the great things about spyderco. they have so much to offer to such a wide audience. the shaman didn't stop me from buying more spydies and it doesn't stop me from loving the brand as a whole.

[Paraguy]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

Support your claim. My mind isn't changed.
If the Shaman was 180 Id probably buy one.
Do you mean to say you'd spend 300 on a s30v Shaman?

Sorry if this sounded harsh Evil D. It's tricky when you're typing and not speaking.

Nah didn't take it as harsh.


What I know is that Sal has said that prices reflect manufacturing costs, with the exception of the Manix 2 which was sold at a low cost/high production thing which was why it was initially ~$30 less than a Para 2. You either trust that Sal is being honest or you think he's price gouging.

I think that most of Spyderco’s products are reasonably priced. Im starting to get why the shaman costs that much. But I doubt that prices reflect manufacturing on the manbug/ladybug.

[Paraguy]

Based on Sal's comments, he never expected it to be a big seller and was really a pet project that he wanted to get out into the market. I don't believe that it was ever meant to appeal to the broad market, and it did not until the Cru-carta version dropped. It does seem expensive for what it is, but low volume products are often priced high as there is no economy of scale and the "setup" costs are spread over a much smaller number of units. There is no free lunch.

Very true. The Watu is a great example of this. But I think now that the shaman has been integrated into there main line up this doesn't hold as true.

[Evil D]

Support your claim. My mind isn't changed.
If the Shaman was 180 Id probably buy one.
Do you mean to say you'd spend 300 on a s30v Shaman?

Sorry if this sounded harsh Evil D. It's tricky when you're typing and not speaking.

Nah didn't take it as harsh.


What I know is that Sal has said that prices reflect manufacturing costs, with the exception of the Manix 2 which was sold at a low cost/high production thing which was why it was initially ~$30 less than a Para 2. You either trust that Sal is being honest or you think he's price gouging.

I think that most of Spyderco’s products are reasonably priced. Im starting to get why the shaman costs that much. But I doubt that prices reflect manufacturing on the manbug/ladybug.

I dunno. He's also said that size doesn't always reflect price and that smaller knives can be difficult to manufacture.

In a lot of businesses there's a minimum charge for things, whether it's per hour or per unit. Maybe they have to charge more for those knives to make it worthwhile. My tattoo guy charges $150 an hour whether you get a back piece of a butterfly on your ankle and it's a 1 hour minimum. Maybe something like that applies here I dunno.

[ladybug93]

Hmm... It seems like the main argument for the higher price is the amount of material. This makes sense more material more cost. Not sure if its 55 plus dollars more. But it does make a little more sense why they would charge more.

look at the yojimbo and that argument falls apart.

i think it boils down to the shaman being a bigger seller than anticipated. shortly after it was released, there was a huge jump in price and it keeps rising every year on january 1st.

while i don't buy the production cost or material cost arguments entirely, it doesn't really matter. they keep selling them to people more than happy to pay for them. so, it may be worth it for you to actually try one for yourself if you haven't already. for some models, the only way to connect with them is when they're in your hands. the caribbean was that way for me (and probably anyone else that owns one haha). if you buy one and hate it, i'm sure someone will happily take it off your hands at a fair price.

not every knife will connect with every person. ultimately, you have to decide that for yourself instead of relying on others to convince you.

[JohnDoe99]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

Thought you never owned a pm2?

[Accutron]

The Shaman is just a PM2 padded out with a bunch of extra bulk, an annoying choil nub and the ergonomics of a frozen dill pickle. The lack of a swedged lanyard tube is convenient at disassembly time, but it's not worth the massive tradeoff.

That being said, I advise skipping both the PM2 and the Shaman and going straight to the Native Chief.

[Evil D]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

Thought you never owned a pm2?

I might have been the first person to own one, I remember when they released you couldn't find them anywhere and I found one in digicam at my local knife shop. I was a PM2 fanboy for a long time until I tried other models and just found the ergonomics aren't the best for me. I think I've owned 3 PM2's and still own the 20CP sprint.

Search my posts for "Darkside", that knife cut me more than any knife I've owned.

[Paraguy]

I never understood the Shaman hype. A bulky chunk of steel, thick behind the edge... it feels and looks like an unfinished design. People(some) rave about its ergos and they may be right but that’s all it is. As much as I like Sal’s designs I must say it ... this one needs more work. I would never pay 200+ for that ugly knife.

Elena, have you held one in hand?

I wasn't big on it either, but managed to snag a Z-Wear Micarta sprint, and I'm glad I did. It's a fantastic hard-use knife, more comfortable for tasks where a PM2 might develop hotspots.

I wouldn't say it's a better EDC than a PM2, but it has its place.

i held one fully expecting it to kick the manix out of my pocket. not even close. i know people complain about the squareness of the manix handles, but it's a much better design in my opinion. i think it's a much better knife all around.

i've also never understood the hype and cost of the shaman and have said as much quite often here. when i held one, it was only a little more expensive than the manix and i didn't like it more. now, there's no way. and i get there is more production cost, but it can't possibly be that much more. and it's not materials, because the yo2 is just as thick blade stock and costs the same as the manix despite having the same materials and lock as the shaman. i don't see it. and, when i did want an overbuilt folder, i wanted one that was actually really overbuilt, hence the 4max scout in my pocket now, which was also about half the cost (granted, in lesser materials, but a stronger lock and materials that are probably better suited for a hard use outdoors knife).

that isn't to say the shaman isn't a good knife. it's just not for me. i personally don't like it at all, but that's one of the great things about spyderco. they have so much to offer to such a wide audience. the shaman didn't stop me from buying more spydies and it doesn't stop me from loving the brand as a whole.

Thats true I've heard that the Shaman used to cost a great deal less. It would interesting to see a shaman with flat g10. It might be cheaper too.

[BELFLOWER]

I sure like my Tropen in S30v. My first 200$ knife and you definitely feel the difference between a 100$ Endura. That’s not to say I don’t love my Endura, but quality wise I can feel the difference.

[ChrisinHove]

A shaman will protect you against evil spirits. A paramilitary can’t.

Worth every penny.