Change my mind: the Shaman costs too much

[Evil D]

Thanks, valid points! :)

As said, I´d take the Shaman over the PM2 too anyway, though I actually "should not" - since practically speaking the PM2 is "better" in parameters that count for me: Weight and overall thinness of the blade. Still, the Shaman is just such a perfect design.

It's OK to just like something even if the next knife is seemingly better in every way. That Vallotton was honestly not a very good knife as far as slicing goes, the blade was so short in height and the grind was low and very thick, it was prone to wedging into things but overall I just liked it so much I loved carrying it. It's interesting because I do tend to over analyze designs and I'll shun the Para 2 for having ergonomics that don't fit me, but I'll overlook other issues with a Vallotton just because I like it so much (that knife did have great ergonomics though).

I'm sure to most people the Para 2 isn't half the knife the Shaman is...my point of that was to point out that tastes differ from one person to the next. To the OP the Shaman is overpriced but a big part of that likely had to do with how he feels about the knife overall.

[curlyhairedboy]

I'm pretty sure we've heard from multiple folks at Spyderco that the formula determining cost has a lot of factors, most of which are concealed from the customer.

Let's take a look at a typical comparison - Shaman vs Yojumbo. Big price difference, same birthplace, similar stock and same steel.

The largest differences from the customer perspective are the contoured scales and the grinds. The yojumbo has a standard hollow grind and no distal taper. The Shaman has a FFG and a complex distal taper transition. There's a cost to that. Contouring the scales? There's a cost to that too.

3D machining to Spyderco's very, very high quality standards is not cheap. It can be a dominant cost that tanks the whole project, as we saw when discussing a CruCarta Proficient sprint.

To the OP: using a comparison to the PM2 is an incomplete argument.

[dlum1]

Don't forget the R&D cost! I originally believed the knife to be too expensive for what it was. After handling it, I realized the knife must have gone through several iterations. In my mind, it's basically an upgraded PM2. Same form factor in the pocket, similar cutting length, more comfortable handle, stronger blade tip, and thicker overall blade. The grind isn't the best for cutting apples, but for hard outdoor use I wouldn't hesitate trying to pry wood with a blade of that thickness. Even with the added weight, the blade was balanced nicely by the back-spacer. The consumer may not be thrilled with the cost, but it doesn't appear to be stopping sales. I'm still waiting for a production micarta version to come along since I missed the sprint runs (similar to what they're doing with the PM2). At the end of the day, it may actually be significantly more expensive than the sum of its parts. But because of the design, it still sells well and the additional revenue allows the company to offset losses from other models not selling as anticipated while also experimenting with new handle materials (wood, micarta, etc.) and other designs and collaborations.

[Woodpuppy]

The shaman is also a burly chunk of steel. That cost adds up too.

I don't think the Shaman costs too much, but this can be the reason for the higher price?
The Shaman blade is made from a sheet of steel about as thick as the one a PM2 is made of (about the same spine thickness in both), so if anything it should take more time and labour to grind the overall thinner PM2 blade?

Thickness is one factor affecting cost, but I was thinking overall area- length x height of the blade. It uses a bigger piece of steel than the PM2, so each sheet of material yields fewer Shaman blades than PM2 blades. Sheet cost / number blades = unit cost.

And for the record, the price is definitely the high side of fair, IMO. It pushes my personal price comfort boundary. Would I pay the same or slightly more for a Millie in a comparable configuration I like, such as Crucarta, Zcarta, or MagnaCarta? You betcha. I’d still grumble about the price...

[T.J.]

I can’t change anyone’s mind. It costs what it costs. I own one and don’t have buyers remorse. It is what it is.

[Wartstein]

The shaman is also a burly chunk of steel. That cost adds up too.

I don't think the Shaman costs too much, but this can be the reason for the higher price?
The Shaman blade is made from a sheet of steel about as thick as the one a PM2 is made of (about the same spine thickness in both), so if anything it should take more time and labour to grind the overall thinner PM2 blade?

Thickness is one factor affecting cost, but I was thinking overall area- length x height of the blade. It uses a bigger piece of steel than the PM2, so each sheet of material yields fewer Shaman blades than PM2 blades. Sheet cost / number blades = unit cost.

And for the record, the price is definitely the high side of fair, IMO. It pushes my personal price comfort boundary. Would I pay the same or slightly more for a Millie in a comparable configuration I like, such as Crucarta, Zcarta, or MagnaCarta? You betcha. I’d still grumble about the price...

This makes sense, thanks! Now I understand.

[Mushroom]

If a PM2 had scales machined and contoured like the Shaman currently does, the price would reflect that. I promise you it would cost more than $155. Probably about $55 more.

[Wartstein]

...

The largest differences from the customer perspective are the contoured scales and the grinds. The yojumbo has a standard hollow grind and no distal taper. The Shaman has a FFG and a complex distal taper transition. There's a cost to that. Contouring the scales? There's a cost to that too.

....

Good points, and the Shaman even has a bit of a very high sabre grind (just that very narrow rectangular portion below the spine on the back half of the blade), which could make grinding this blade even more complicated, given Spydercos high standards

[cycleguy]

I think if it is the right knife for you a small cost difference doesn't factor into the equation much.

I spent a bunch on the highly sought after Cru-Carta Shaman and after doing so and some time with the knife in hand I found it wasn't the knife for me. A great knife nonetheless!!! I let it go and recovered my funds and the guy that got it was ecstatic.

CG

[Danke]

Everything costs too much!

[Woodpuppy]

Everything costs too much!

This.

[wrdwrght]

And while we gripe at the cost of materials and the cost of executing a design, we seem to think the designer has offered his effort for free. Why?

[Paraguy]

Hi Paraguy,
You remind me of another PM2 guy. Are you new to the forum or is this just a new account for you?

Back when the Shaman cost 180 people said much the same. Too expensive for a base model. I thought it was expensive myself. Then I tried one and my opinion changed. Not sure if you've tried one or not. But I've got 4 Shaman now. And only one PM2.

Don't get me wrong the Shaman is a great knife. But there is no way for me to justify paying that much for a knife of its caliber when you can some thing just as good/functional for much less. It is all objective I guess.

It's the exact opposite. It is subjective.

Whoops meant to say "not"

[Paraguy]

In a capitalist system, the test for whether an item costs “too much” has nothing to do with whether people who admire the product are willing/able to pay its price.

Rather, an item costs too much when a seller cannot find enough willing buyers.

I don’t know enough about Spyderco sales figures to say whether the Shaman meets this test. But since it has not been discontinued or discounted, it is probably safe to assume that Spyderco and its dealers are able to move their inventory.

I'm not saying they're selling them for more then the market will bare. I'm saying they're selling them for more than I am willing to pay.

If they’re selling for more than you’re willing to pay, then why would you need anyone to convince you to buy one? It seems like your mind is already made up.

For me, if I feel a particular knife is too expensive for me that I won’t buy it, then it means I don’t really want it, so I simply forget about it.

Jim

I had made up my mind, but I wanted to hear the opinions of people who actually own one.

[Paraguy]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

Support your claim. My mind isn't changed.
If the Shaman was 180 Id probably buy one.
Do you mean to say you'd spend 300 on a s30v Shaman?

Whoops :rolleyes:

The Shaman in my opinion is worth it because it handles every cutting task flawlessly. It's thicker than a PM2 but has similar slicing performance. Plus, whenever there's an exclusive or sprint the price doesn't fluctuate that much. If one is patient and persistent they can get their choice Shaman. We're very fortunate to have the variety that we do currently.

That's actually a really great point. When I made this I was thinking about the base model. But I would say when I comes to the fancier sprints the price rarely shoots up too high.

[Paraguy]

The Shaman math does not add up. And that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. There is nuance involved in setting prices, and it’s not as easy as summing costs and putting the price tag on the box.

I believe that Sal created something that pushed demand much higher than anticipated. I’m not sure Spyderco had much of a choice other than to increase the price to get demand closer to what could be reasonably produced. If the spread between a PM2 and Shaman were tighter, the Shaman eats into PM2 sales.

The PM2 is a cash cow. You milk the cow. You don’t turn it into ground beef.

We will have to live with the outlier pricing, but you do get something more for your money relative to a PM2.

I 100% agree.

[Paraguy]

If a PM2 had scales machined and contoured like the Shaman currently does, the price would reflect that. I promise you it would cost more than $155. Probably about $55 more.

In would be interesting to see a shaman without contoured scales

[Paraguy]

Thanks everyone for your input! My intention of making this thread wasn't to say that the Shaman costs too much and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Personally I still wouldn't pay 210 for the base level Shaman, but this thread has helped me to understand why some people would and why the Shaman costs what it costs.

-Paraguy

[Matus]

The upcoming PM2 in Cruwear/Micarta is going to cost 180€ from Lamnia - what sounds like a pretty good price. The same shop soold Z-wear / Micarta Shaman for 264€. That does sound a little overpriced at first sight, though I would not expect the price to be the same as PM2.

Base lever PM2 would cost me now around 180€, while base Shaman is 235€ - price very similar to a Maxamet PM2.

[JRinFL]

Thanks everyone for your input! My intention of making this thread wasn't to say that the Shaman costs too much and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Personally I still wouldn't pay 210 for the base level Shaman, but this thread has helped me to understand why some people would and why the Shaman costs what it costs.

-Paraguy

I understand where you are coming from. I avoided buying the base Shaman at MAP and only got one when a retailer had it listed much below MAP. The Zwear version I paid full price, no hesitation. I think it might have sold really well if it had been released in FRN first rather than S30V/G-10. Of course, I'm not taking the investment risk Spyderco is, so large grain of salt required.