Change my mind: the Shaman costs too much

[dj moonbat]

In a capitalist system, the test for whether an item costs “too much” has nothing to do with whether people who admire the product are willing/able to pay its price.

Rather, an item costs too much when a seller cannot find enough willing buyers.

I don’t know enough about Spyderco sales figures to say whether the Shaman meets this test. But since it has not been discontinued or discounted, it is probably safe to assume that Spyderco and its dealers are able to move their inventory.

[Paraguy]

Hi Paraguy,
You remind me of another PM2 guy. Are you new to the forum or is this just a new account for you?

Back when the Shaman cost 180 people said much the same. Too expensive for a base model. I thought it was expensive myself. Then I tried one and my opinion changed. Not sure if you've tried one or not. But I've got 4 Shaman now. And only one PM2.

Don't get me wrong the Shaman is a great knife. But there is no way for me to justify paying that much for a knife of its caliber when you can some thing just as good/functional for much less. It is all objective I guess.

[Paraguy]

In a capitalist system, the test for whether an item costs “too much” has nothing to do with whether people who admire the product are willing/able to pay its price.

Rather, an item costs too much when a seller cannot find enough willing buyers.

I don’t know enough about Spyderco sales figures to say whether the Shaman meets this test. But since it has not been discontinued or discounted, it is probably safe to assume that Spyderco and its dealers are able to move their inventory.

I'm not saying they're selling them for more then the market will bare. I'm saying they're selling them for more than I am willing to pay.

[VooDooChild]

The shaman was originally closer to the pm2 in price, then it got a price increase.

[Henry_P]

Things I like about the shaman more than the PM2:
1. More ergonomic grip thanks to the rounded edges.
2. Heavier duty tip.
3. Flat spine opposed to the “hump” on the PM2.
4. Fits the pocket better due to the slimmer profile.
5. Most importantly if you like to take your knife apart for maintenance or scale swaps the shaman is ten times easier to disassemble. Don’t have to worry about the lanyard tube or free spinning standoffs.

I don’t know if the base shaman is worth the price but my shaman z-wear was absolutely worth it for me.

[Mushroom]

Hi Paraguy,
You remind me of another PM2 guy. Are you new to the forum or is this just a new account for you?

Back when the Shaman cost 180 people said much the same. Too expensive for a base model. I thought it was expensive myself. Then I tried one and my opinion changed. Not sure if you've tried one or not. But I've got 4 Shaman now. And only one PM2.

Don't get me wrong the Shaman is a great knife. But there is no way for me to justify paying that much for a knife of its caliber when you can some thing just as good/functional for much less. It is all objective I guess.

It's the exact opposite. It is subjective.

[James Y]

In a capitalist system, the test for whether an item costs “too much” has nothing to do with whether people who admire the product are willing/able to pay its price.

Rather, an item costs too much when a seller cannot find enough willing buyers.

I don’t know enough about Spyderco sales figures to say whether the Shaman meets this test. But since it has not been discontinued or discounted, it is probably safe to assume that Spyderco and its dealers are able to move their inventory.

I'm not saying they're selling them for more then the market will bare. I'm saying they're selling them for more than I am willing to pay.

If they’re selling for more than you’re willing to pay, then why would you need anyone to convince you to buy one? It seems like your mind is already made up.

For me, if I feel a particular knife is too expensive for me that I won’t buy it, then it means I don’t really want it, so I simply forget about it.

Jim

[Steeltoez83]

The shaman never appealed to me aesthetically. Never connected with me when I used it. I'd rather use a fixed blade instead. Now I have my tree rex shaman handle wrapped in paracord and for me that seems to be the trick to enjoy that knife. I won't be buying anymore bcuz the model doesn't connect with me. I gifted away a g10 M4 one to my buddy BJ. My personal opinion is irrelevant bcuz my mileage is different from everyone elses. No matter what models connect with me or don't I understand there's ppl willing to pay for them. I would rather have a different knife in my pocket tho. Others seem to find a lot of joy in the design. And it's not my place to tell them how to spend their money.

[kennethsime]

The only thing wrong with the Shaman besides the availability is there is no Super Shaman XL in Magna Cut with titanium RIL frame lock.

Signed,
Big hands.

Change my mind...
:D

PREACH

[Spyderman91]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

Support your claim. My mind isn't changed.
If the Shaman was 180 Id probably buy one.
Do you mean to say you'd spend 300 on a s30v Shaman?

Whoops :rolleyes:

The Shaman in my opinion is worth it because it handles every cutting task flawlessly. It's thicker than a PM2 but has similar slicing performance. Plus, whenever there's an exclusive or sprint the price doesn't fluctuate that much. If one is patient and persistent they can get their choice Shaman. We're very fortunate to have the variety that we do currently.

[M Sea]

A shaman will protect you against evil spirits. A paramilitary can’t.

Worth every penny.

Winner. /thread

Ha, Nice!

[Doc Dan]

Paraguy, while I get the reference, an awful lot of folks on this forum aren't redditors, and won't get it. Further, even on r/CMV, there's a rule that you have to come to the table with an open mind, not a combative one. Barking orders at folks like "Support Your Claim" is not likely to win you any points here on the forum.

Thank you. I was biting my tongue. :D

[RamZar]

ParaMilitary2 with S45VN & G-10 made in the U.S. is pretty good value at $154.70 while Shaman with S30V & G-10 not so much at $210.00. Both have stainless steel liners and Compression Lock. Of course, there’s the contoured G-10 on the Shaman. There’s also economies of scale strongly favoring ParaMilitary2.

On the bright side, Shaman is made in the U.S. If it was made, exactly as is, at the Seki factory it would probably cost 250+!

[Wartstein]

The only thing wrong with the Shaman besides the availability is there is no Super Shaman XL in Magna Cut with titanium RIL frame lock.

Signed,
Big hands.

Change my mind...
:D

Frame-- or linerlock would be great also on the current Shaman! :)

[Wartstein]

The shaman is also a burly chunk of steel. That cost adds up too.

I don't think the Shaman costs too much, but this can be the reason for the higher price?
The Shaman blade is made from a sheet of steel about as thick as the one a PM2 is made of (about the same spine thickness in both), so if anything it should take more time and labour to grind the overall thinner PM2 blade?

[BG-ThatsMe]

The Shaman math does not add up. And that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. There is nuance involved in setting prices, and it’s not as easy as summing costs and putting the price tag on the box.

I believe that Sal created something that pushed demand much higher than anticipated. I’m not sure Spyderco had much of a choice other than to increase the price to get demand closer to what could be reasonably produced. If the spread between a PM2 and Shaman were tighter, the Shaman eats into PM2 sales.

The PM2 is a cash cow. You milk the cow. You don’t turn it into ground beef.

We will have to live with the outlier pricing, but you do get something more for your money relative to a PM2.

[Wartstein]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

To get that out of the way: I don´t think the Shaman costs too much!

But that being said: Twice the knife the PM2 is? I´d be interested in your reasoning. Honest question, I personally have quite a bit experience with the PM2, but just could handle, but never actually use a Shaman.
And while I totally love the latter (and most likely get it over a PM2 if I had to choose), function wise I guess the PM2 is still better for me (guess (!), cause again I never actually used a Shaman!) - mostly due to the overall thinner, slicier blade (more tapering, no sabre grind portion) and the lighter weight.

[PaloArt]

Paraguy, while I get the reference, an awful lot of folks on this forum aren't redditors, and won't get it. Further, even on r/CMV, there's a rule that you have to come to the table with an open mind, not a combative one. Barking orders at folks like "Support Your Claim" is not likely to win you any points here on the forum.

I'm not sure I can change your mind, but I do own both a PM2 and a Shaman, and like them both for different reasons. I'll try to explain why the Shaman costs more. It comes down to two big things:
- Steel. The Shaman weighs 1.3oz more than the Pm2, and that's mostly in the blade. S30V is expensive.
- Scales. The Shaman has contoured, 3-dimensional scales which are likely shaped by hand. Whether they're making them out of G-10 or Micarta, these take time and skill to produce.

Ok, with that out of the way, we get to ask the next question: why would you want a thicker blade, and more comfortable scales? Because the Shaman is a hard-use knife. It will be more comfortable in the hand for tasks like wood carving, and the stronger blade means you can do more prying with it before it snaps.

End of the day? If you don't value these things, the Shaman is not for you. That's ok - move along. If you do value them, but just don't want to shell out the extra $$ it takes to produce the knife, then you're S.O.L. my friend.

The most cordialy and gentlemanly answered question I would say, and I agree on 100%. I am not target group for Shaman but I see where it might see some serious use. Frankly I never saw unfinished design from SAL :confused: just some CQI that came up with use and users feedback.

[Evil D]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

To get that out of the way: I don´t think the Shaman costs too much!

But that being said: Twice the knife the PM2 is? I´d be interested in your reasoning. Honest question, I personally have quite a bit experience with the PM2, but just could handle, but never actually use a Shaman.
And while I totally love the latter (and most likely get it over a PM2 if I had to choose), function wise I guess the PM2 is still better for me (guess (!), cause again I never actually used a Shaman!) - mostly due to the overall thinner, slicier blade (more tapering, no sabre grind portion) and the lighter weight.

I was really just trying to match the tone of the thread title

It's just built for a specific hand size and there are many knives with better ergonomics for me. Even before the Caribbean came along I preferred the Manix 2 over the PM2. Weight is much lower on the priority list for me if everything else about the knife is just right, and I'd gladly take a few extra ounces for thicker scales. I did EDC a Vallotton for about a year. I do agree the Shaman could ground a bit thinner at the edge.

[Wartstein]

Shaman is twice the knife the Para 2 is. Change MY mind.

I was really just trying to match the tone of the thread title

It's just built for a specific hand size and there are many knives with better ergonomics for me. Even before the Caribbean came along I preferred the Manix 2 over the PM2. Weight is much lower on the priority list for me if everything else about the knife is just right, and I'd gladly take a few extra ounces for thicker scales. I did EDC a Vallotton for about a year. I do agree the Shaman could ground a bit thinner at the edge.

Thanks, valid points! :)

As said, I´d take the Shaman over the PM2 too anyway, though I actually "should not" - since practically speaking the PM2 is "better" in parameters that count for me: Weight and overall thinness of the blade. Still, the Shaman is just such a perfect design.