Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

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JD Spydo
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#61

Post by JD Spydo »

Not sure if this lends well to the discussion at hand but it goes with what I've said for years. I regard my knife carry rights just as precious as I do with my firearms rights >> I do believe that the Second Amendment of the US Constitution provides for citizens to be able to defend themselves and their families with whatever weapon that might be handy. And I don't care if it would be a homeless person or someone who just got off of a private jet. If they came after me in a nefarious, aggressive and dangerous manner I would deploy whichever knife I had on me at the time.

There was one incident in my life about 10 years ago when I had to use a Gurkha Kukri to react to two guys that were trying to rob me late at night. Everything turned out great and no one was hurt or put in jail. Just the size of the knife and myself going into a rage worked out well. But I do believe if I not had that Gurkha knife ( Cold Steel Carbon V model) handy the two assailants would have attacked me and done me bodily harm>> or even killed me for that matter. Actually I'm 99% certain of it.

As far as using a short blade for self defense I would heartily recommend The Spyderco YOJIMBO which is a brilliant Michael Janich design. I personally preferred the original Yojimbo over the most recent edition but that's just my own preference because both knives would do the trick if you were in a dangerous situation. For almost two years I carried a Spyderco Caly Jr. with a ZDP-189 blade and I do believe with the super wicked edge that knife had when it was sharp that it would have been a great self defense tool. Avoidance is always your best defense ultimately dealing with criminals. But as in my case those two guys were on me before I knew what was going on and it was great that I had that Gurkha Kukri handy at the time.

Another old saying to never forget>> "Never Take A Knife To A Gun Fight". If your opponent has a gun then all you can do is to use your head and not try to play the role of a hero. As much of a knife fan as I am I do realize that knives have their limitations. And unfortunately these are extremely dangerous times we are entering. GOD help us :(
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#62

Post by Menipo »

JRinFL wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:48 am
I love posts like this because it always brings out the same crowd. The young and healthy always yell "runaway" or "get martial arts training" because they assume they will always be young and healthy. Guess what kids, you WILL get old, you WILL get infirm at some point.
So what can you do if you cannot carry a gun, cannot run, or stand toe to toe? You will have to practice avoidance. In some areas that will greatly limit your life, sorry.

You're right. And it is a very valid point.

When I get to the point where age doesn't allow me to run, I won't defend myself with a knife either. Because with the impossibility of fleeing quickly, a lack of reflexes, slow reactions and an unstable balance often come in the same package. Of course, I will take with me a cane (preferably with the metal tip) ("just to help me walk, Mr. Officer") and perhaps the attacker will get turned into a skewer. :D
Si vis pacem para bellum ;)
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#63

Post by Naperville »

OMG - YES! Look out when you get "Old" and only have an edged weapon to defend yourself with. :o

"Old Folks" belong in old folks homes.... :mad:

https://youtu.be/sdtXFKx2Hyg


Just remember that as you get old, the fear of doing life in prison begins to mean very little to you. If you have to defend yourself against a thug or two, go all out to live. Chances are good you will walk if you are over 65 and trying to save your life.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#64

Post by Naperville »

I suppose there are monongs (old Filipino escrimadors) hidden away somewhere that do not move, but all of them that I have seen were capable late in to life.

Grandmaster Angel Cabales testing one of his advanced students.

https://youtu.be/A6EuoqFbiN8
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#65

Post by Naperville »

GM Lacoste hard at work.

Filipino Martial Arts use a rattan stick for training to avoid injury that you would get with a sharp weapon.

https://youtu.be/jxlf0vcgy3U
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#66

Post by The Mastiff »

I used a knife for self defense when I was pretty young. I had neither training nor any sort of tactical or fighting knife. In fact it didn't even have a lock.

I don't know any of the guys I knew who murdered people that had any kind of training. They just had the desire to hurt someone and something to do it with.

I will say that concealed carry classes are pretty useful because in most places they are tailored to the laws and practices of the local areas and enforcement departments. If they tell you " Don't ever do this ..." believe them. There is a reason for that.

Knives for sure aren't my idea of what I'd want for self defense. In an emergency they are better than harsh language even for untrained people. My personal rules are never let someone know you are armed when possible. There are no threats. No displays. If someone truly ( legally and morally) deserves to have you use force on them let them find out as they are going on to their reward.

And if I had my way I'd first call in an airstrike, then artillery and after that tanks and infantry. Then sterilize with fire, poison the wells and salt the fields. :) That's how I feel about using force.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#67

Post by TomH »

For anyone interested, John Shirley, the designer of the Spyderco ARK, has a YouTube video on how to use that small knife for self-defense.

My opinion is that any size knife can potentially be used defensively. Depending on many factors, sometimes one size is more appropriate than another.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#68

Post by Michael Janich »

Hey, All:

Thank you for your discussion and for sharing your personal thoughts and perspectives. While I appreciate that very much, these threads are always a double-edged sword. On one hand, you have some people asking for and offering sound advice relevant to the OP's question, and on the other hand you have often-repeated self-defense cliches and some pretty wild tangents.

From my perspective, I feel it's important to address a few critical issues:

First, introducing a knife, gun, or any other deadly weapon into a situation means you are crossing the line into lethal force. To do that legally, you must be able to articulate that you were in fear for your life or in fear of grievous bodily injury. If you can't reasonably do that, even the threat of a weapon can be considered felony menacing. Does that mean the "defensive display" of a weapon can't diffuse a situation? Absolutely not. I've done it several times, but mostly overseas and while I was carrying a diplomatic passport. In the US, with the proliferation of cameras, I would be much more calculating in the use of that tactic--and fully aware of the risks involved.

To answer the original question, "Is a small folder capable of serving as a self-defense knife?"--absolutely, when wielded with tactics appropriate to the tool. The tactics of Martial Blade Concepts (MBC) assume the "worst-case scenario" is that you live in Chicago or Boston or work in a US Federal building where a 2.5-inch blade is all that is legally permitted. I quantify the destructive capacity of a 2.5-inch blade, translate that to human tissue, and focus on targets that will result in immediate or near-immediate incapacitation. The MBC system is designed to work with small knives and provide reliable, predictable stopping power. "Stopping" an attacker is the goal in all justifiable self-defense. It's also the only logical way of keeping yourself safe. Trading blows to the head with a tire iron and thrusts to the body with a knife is, at best, mutual slaying. It's certainly not an effective approach to self-defense.

With that said, yes, a gun is a better weapon than a knife because it offers the advantage of distance. However, if you can't legally carry one or won't make the commitment to, the point is moot. If you can legally carry one, it's still not the solution to every self-defense problem. Compared to a knife, which is selective, firing rounds out in public has a high probability of collateral damage, so you must be skilled in its use.

Speaking of skills, if you're going to carry ANY weapon for self-defense, you must train diligently in its use. For shooters, that doesn't just mean marksmanship on a piece of carboard; it means actual gunfighting training and integration of the gun with other tactics. No weapon wards off evil spirits. If you're not going to train, don't bother carrying a weapon.

While I enjoy watching videos of Filipino masters and trace much of my Filipino martial arts (FMA) heritage through the Serrada line to Angel Cabales, we DO all get old. We also get sick and injured. All of that diminishes our physical abilities and makes self-defense more challenging.

In the 11 years that I co-hosted "The Best Defense" TV series, we did a number of episodes that focused on self-defense for the elderly and physically challenged. I have also personally trained people who are coping with physical disabilities, injuries, and the effects of age. Dismissing their challenges is unfair.

When I teach, I explain self-defense using what I call the "Four Pillars." These are: physical attributes, skills, weapons, and mindset. Each one of these elements is scalable. When combined, the output is what I call "net violence." Essentially, this is your ability to physically injure and incapacitate an attacker to make him stop. If your net violence output is inadequate, your self-defense efforts fall short and you lose.

How much net violence do you need? That's also variable, based on the threat you face. If your attacker is bigger and stronger, armed, or has friends, the requirement goes up.

When we're young, fast, and strong, our physical attributes are good. We also tend to be confident, so mindset is also good. As such, we don't need many skills or any weapons to generate adequate net violence. However, as we age, get ill, or suffer injury, our physical attributes diminish. Ideally, we've compensated by training to develop skill and well-placed confidence (mindset) so we can still achieve good output. When our physical attributes drop so low that our ability to generate net violence is inadequate for the average attacker, we need to add weapons (and the skill to use them) to the mix. Similarly, if you start out with very limited physical attributes--like a small-framed female--weapons should be part of the equation from the very start.

This approach to self-defense emphasizes the most important aspect of the challenge: self. In the traditional martial arts, the goal is to get everyone to do "the system" exactly the same way. The "art" becomes more important than the individual. In MBC we have a saying: "You don't have to fight like me; you just have to fight well." I encourage all my students to do a serious self-assessment and be honest about their limitations. That process not only helps them determine the skills, tactics, and weapons that are most appropriate for their personal needs, but also is the foundation of their ability to assess threats and justify their actions. A small-framed person or someone with a physical disability is less capable of fighting an attacker unarmed--period. As such, the threshold at which they could reasonably feel that they were in fear of death or grievous bodily injury is lower than a more physically able person. That means the threshold at which they could introduce a weapon and justify their action is also lower. That's how it should work.

One reference I use in all my teaching is a Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) report on weapon use in violent crime: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/wuvc01.pdf. Although dated (I wish they'd do a new one), the statistics it presents are very compelling. In simple terms, 75% of violent attacks are unarmed. 25% involve weapons. Of the weapons, 15% are contact-distance weapons (knives and impact weapons) and 10% are firearms. When I teach gun guys who love to spout the "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight," I ask them straight up what they would do in the 3 out of 4 incidents that involve fists and feet instead of weapons. When they go through the motions of brandishing their gun, I ask them about their weapon-retention training and how they would justify shooting an unarmed person with comparable physical attributes. The goal is not to embarrass them, but to make them think hard enough to fill in the blanks in their tactics and skill set.

Saving the best for last, physical skills are ALWAYS a last resort. Whenever possible, they should always be preceded by awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, and boundary setting--the "soft skills" of personal protection that allow you to avoid or diffuse a situation before it gets physical. Learn and train those skills just as diligently as your physical skills and they'll pay big dividends.

Stay safe,

Mike
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#69

Post by ladybug93 »

/thread
keep your knife sharp and your focus sharper.
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#70

Post by wrdwrght »

ladybug93 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:02 am
/thread
I would add, make Michael’s post a sticky so as to keep future SD discussions reasonable.
-Marc (pocketing an S110V Native5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
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Naperville
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#71

Post by Naperville »

Thanks for that excellent reply Mr Janich!

The aged definitely face more challenges in self defense. As I get older I seek out information that will help me to understand what I will be facing. GM Rene Latosa has an interesting series of videos that he filmed while seated!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMwn6V ... 3LQ/videos

COACHING TIPS: ANY OBJECT IS A WEAPON
https://youtu.be/rNOd8-rPw60

COACHING TIPS: BLADE ZONES. - FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS
https://youtu.be/Q4s-Ums2koo

COACHING TIPS: HOOK DRILLS SITTING DOWN - FILIPINO BOXING
https://youtu.be/5ggewu1XqNY
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#72

Post by Ryder »

The only time I used a knife to fend off someone was when I was four years old. My parents hired a Native American babysitter who was teenage. She wanted me to come inside so she could give me a bath. I wanted to play with my buds and certainly didn’t want her giving me any bath. She approached after my refusal so I deployed my scout knife that I’d suvineered from the kitchen table vase. I parried the dark carbon blade and she retreated. It worked a charm and she never came back again but the folks were none too happy. They took my precious knife away scarring me forever. A man has a right to defend himself according to the Constitution but I lost in the parental courts. Later in life I had a Native American girlfriend. They are sweet but super dangerous in a tomboy kind of way, excellent to have in a fight as they are true shield maidens. Just don’t piss them off. I was lucky with that early babysitter.

Never did I use a knife in that respect again and prescribe too avoidance, awareness and a little attitude goes a long way. Nobody wants to get caught up in the legal system.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#73

Post by BLUETYPEII »

Naperville wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:58 pm
I've dabbled in 6 different edged weapon martial arts, have a large DVD collection of the arts that I've studied and review tape all of the time. How much is it on my mind? All the time. Morning, Noon, Night and even in my Dreams

That is the thing with using knives. You have to practice, and use them all of the time, for you to be able to deploy them under pressure. I am not saying that you cannot do it, I've done it, but it is not the same thing as taking up knitting, you must live it. It is going to be messy.

OK, now what is the largest folder or fixed blade that you can legally carry? Carry that knife. You can use a 1/2 inch knife blade, but I'm willing to bet the law allows for 2.5 inch to 3 inch, so use that, IF that is what the law allows.

Under pressure, Fixed is better than a Folder, but folders do work too.

To start off, I suggest you look at videos on YouTube of knife fights, self defense, etc. You should get training, but in a pinch, practicing what you see in a video is close enough and better than nothing at all. When you have time, you should seek out martial arts training with a knife at an escrima, arnis or kalis school. Buy and collect DVDs of the methods of training. Then practice.

If you intend to thrust, you need a point on the knife.

There may be 12 or more different strikes with a knife that are possible. A horizontal slash and thrust, left-to-right, and right-to-left. Upward and downward strikes. And finally an "X" pattern, the diagonals. You need to defend and attack on these lines.

I suggest looking at the Spyderco Yojimbo, Yojumbo, Native, or Native Chief in the legal carry size.

I'm 60+ and I'm not running, so I plan on it getting very messy.
Running isn’t always an option. You could get ambushed or attacked from behind. You could be cornered. Or with loved ones who can’t run. What about dogs... you’re not out running a dog. In reality I’ve had to defend twice against dogs; fortunately I didn’t have to do anything but it came close.

Having some ability to defend yourself is very important in my opinion. It doesn’t matter if it’s lethal or non-lethal a knife, a gun, being trained in physical combat/martial arts, a stout walking stick, pepper spray. There are a lot of options out there, you should partake of at least, one of them.

I almost always have my pistol on me and I always have at least one knife with at least a three inch blade. (unless legally not permitted to)

One of the important things in self defense is having your head on a swivel. Being very aware of your surroundings. If you don’t see or suspect an attack coming, you can’t defend against it.

The other important thing is training. You must be familiar with your weapon of choice lethal or non-lethal. It Has to be a muscle memory thing you cannot think straight or do complex intricate motions when you’re in fight or flight it’s all muscle memory. Anyone serious about defending themselves should understand fight or flight and what it is and how it affects you when it happens.

I hope everyone just keeps a cool head out there. There’s no coming back from death, mistakes can happen, be careful.

Remember these are just my opinions.

Be safe!
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#74

Post by sal »

Thanx Mike.

sal
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Raylas
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#75

Post by Raylas »

Okay....

I'm gonna hop in here.

First off, a folding knife is never a great choice for SD. Yeah, it can work if you have nothing else, but I really don't recommend it.

Small fixed blades are also usually not a great option unless they're specialized for the task and you know what it is you're doing.

A full sized or large fixed blade will do the job, but it's pretty grisly stuff, man. I've seen them used, I know how to do it myself.... I wouldn't recommend a knife.

So... let's consider other, probably more practical options, shall we? And while yes, a gun is king, that's axiomatic, so I'll go with more out of the box lines of thinking here. But seriously, get a revolver if you can.

First up is pepper spray or bear mace. This stuff hurts. It really is underrated how unpleasant it is. I'd suggest the Kimber PepperBlaster. It uses a pyrotechnic charge, so it never needs to be replaced unless you've used it, and it bucks the wind better than any spray I've ever seen. Get several, learn where they shoot, carry one, use if you must, aim for the face.

Second option, and I admittedly do not know the laws of the communist nation of california.... But a blackjack, sap, or coin sap would be a good option here. These are basically a type of leaded club wrapped in leather, and they fit into your pocket, or onto a belt. It's easy to learn how to use something like this, I don't like how close you have to get, but, and this is a bonus: They're typically non-lethal. A good shot to the side of the head will put most people off hurting you. You still need to train with these, I recommend Escrima training, and again, VERY short range, not a great choice.

The Coin Sap is basically a man-purse that you fill with rolls of nickles, or loose change to give it weight. In court, it's "just a coin purse, your honor." which is, admittedly, true. It's just a coin purse, and you just happened to have it in your hand to pay for bus fare when you were accosted and struck your attacker with a knockout blow.

Finally, we have my favorite choice: The cane. Ever heard of canemasters? They make very, very sturdy, heavy hickory and oak canes. Under the Americans with disabilities act, you CANNOT be hassled over a cane. You cannot have it taken from you by some pencilneck legislator, you cannot be given trouble over "why do you have this?" by anybody, really.

I don't think it takes a lot of imagination to understand how you'd use 3 feet of Hickory sapwood in this context. Ever play baseball?
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#76

Post by James Y »

When I go for my walks, I carry a 53” hickory walking stick, made by Brazos Walking Sticks. It has the “twisted” pattern. I also have one in a 51” rustic style that I sometimes carry instead. A big plus is that they are NOT designed to be used as weapons, but will work very well in that role, if required.

I don’t actually need a walking stick to walk. I do not carry a cane; I find a good walking stick more useful for my own purposes. I’ve had many years of training in staff fighting applications, both long staff (6’ and over) and short staff, similar in length to a walking stick. Nothing fancy or “twirly,” just simple and direct stuff.

I’ve never had to fight any people off with a stick, but on three different occasions I have backed off aggressive, medium-sized dogs that were trying to attack me. One of those occasions involved two dogs working together. Sure, none of the dogs in question were pit bulls or Rottweilers, but any medium-sized dogs can be a danger if they choose to attack, and I’m not giving ANY dog, regardless of size, a free bite. In only one instance did I need to actually strike the dog (I strike with the handle end). No blood, no permanent harm done. Had I only had a knife, such a positive (and efficient) outcome would not have been possible. A 53” piece of hickory is no joke. It’s hard and durable, it has reach, and it can also be maneuvered very quickly and in close-quarters, IF you know how, AND have the will to use it. The effect on a human attacker would be even greater, especially if they are struck in a thrusting manner.

*Edited to add: The longest walking sticks from Brazos are 55”, but that’s too long for a regular walking stick for my height, so I custom-shortened one of mine to 51” and the other to 53”.

Jim
Last edited by James Y on Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#77

Post by ykspydiefan »

I am thankful that I live in a relatively safe country. I have never felt the need to carry anything for self defense. I have lived in a remote hamlet(500 people, fly-in access) and carried bear spray daily because there were bears in the yard frequently. Currently, I am in a town of 50,000 and carry my Spyderco and a walking stick for stray dog defense.

Verbal judo, and Jedi mind tricks work well here because our marginalized populations here are not desperate to stay alive. We have adequate shelters and enough food for people in need. Also, we are remote enough that the big city drug problems are not so bad here. I have found that mind tricks do not work when a person has blown their mind out with drugs. In those cases I have relied on physical skill, duck dodge and run. Best defense, don't be there.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#78

Post by Blue72 »

Raylas wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:10 am
Okay....

I'm gonna hop in here.

First off, a folding knife is never a great choice for SD. Yeah, it can work if you have nothing else, but I really don't recommend it.

Small fixed blades are also usually not a great option unless they're specialized for the task and you know what it is you're doing.

A full sized or large fixed blade will do the job, but it's pretty grisly stuff, man. I've seen them used, I know how to do it myself.... I wouldn't recommend a knife.

So... let's consider other, probably more practical options, shall we? And while yes, a gun is king, that's axiomatic, so I'll go with more out of the box lines of thinking here. But seriously, get a revolver if you can.

First up is pepper spray or bear mace. This stuff hurts. It really is underrated how unpleasant it is. I'd suggest the Kimber PepperBlaster. It uses a pyrotechnic charge, so it never needs to be replaced unless you've used it, and it bucks the wind better than any spray I've ever seen. Get several, learn where they shoot, carry one, use if you must, aim for the face.

Second option, and I admittedly do not know the laws of the communist nation of california.... But a blackjack, sap, or coin sap would be a good option here. These are basically a type of leaded club wrapped in leather, and they fit into your pocket, or onto a belt. It's easy to learn how to use something like this, I don't like how close you have to get, but, and this is a bonus: They're typically non-lethal. A good shot to the side of the head will put most people off hurting you. You still need to train with these, I recommend Escrima training, and again, VERY short range, not a great choice.

The Coin Sap is basically a man-purse that you fill with rolls of nickles, or loose change to give it weight. In court, it's "just a coin purse, your honor." which is, admittedly, true. It's just a coin purse, and you just happened to have it in your hand to pay for bus fare when you were accosted and struck your attacker with a knockout blow.

Finally, we have my favorite choice: The cane. Ever heard of canemasters? They make very, very sturdy, heavy hickory and oak canes. Under the Americans with disabilities act, you CANNOT be hassled over a cane. You cannot have it taken from you by some pencilneck legislator, you cannot be given trouble over "why do you have this?" by anybody, really.

I don't think it takes a lot of imagination to understand how you'd use 3 feet of Hickory sapwood in this context. Ever play baseball?

People should realize the limitations of the options you presented

1. Plenty of U.S. Navy officers training videos on the internet shows that almost anyone can still fight and inflict violence on multiple people after being hosed down in pepper spray

2. Saps and blackjacks can sometimes be limited to only one effective available target (head) which is not always available especially if someone is grappling you from behind. Once again, plenty of real world police impact weapon videos on the internet showing how limited they are in their capabilities

But a small knife and a day of MBC training can potentially stop a fight immediately
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#79

Post by James Y »

The Kimber Pepperblaster is illegal in CA.

Blackjacks/saps are also illegal in CA.

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

#80

Post by Naperville »

Blackjacks and Saps are illegal almost everywhere. Check your local laws before buying. But they sure are neat to have and can be used against an intruder in your home legally probably!!! I doubt they are illegal to own, but again, check your local laws before buying.

I like the canes that CaneMasters have, and plan to buy one - one of these days, but I do wonder about the survivability of them to be used like a baseball bat. In Filipino martial arts some of the guys/gals have kamagong sticks, which is a hardwood found in the Philippines. They have been known to shatter. YMMV.

I know nothing about hickory, walnut, etc. My favorite bat(if I had one) would be made out of aluminum.
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