Do we do people disservice?

[Doc Dan]

When we recommend a knife to the average person, do we do a disservice by recommending steels VG-10 and upwards? In reality, most people do not know how to sharpen a knife and most are not interested in learning. They would rather use a simple pull through sharpener and want something easy to sharpen if needed. The proof of this is to look at their knives. They are often scratched up by poor attempts at sharpening, the polish mostly gone, and their sharpening equipment is a rough stone, maybe, and several pull through types. (I admit to owning a Blade Medic for my emergency kit because my wife can use it and it is portable).

Steels like H1 and BD1 and AEB-L might be better recommendations than most of what I see people recommend. The reason I got to thinking about this is that I have a friend who is not into sharpening, at all, never was. The only knives he owns are cheap. He asked me about a pocket knife. As I thought about him, I ultimately recommended a Dragonfly Salt plain edge because I know he will use the same pull through sharpener that he uses on his usually dull kitchen knives. (The Salt has the advantage of not rusting if he neglects it, too).

Any thoughts? Do we do a disservice to others with recommending knives that are beyond the ability or desire of others to sharpen? Would it be better to recommend something easier and then if they are interested they can move up?

[RamZar]

When I first started collecting folding knives wholeheartedly in 2005 the really good stainless steels were 154CM, N690, VG-10 and ATS-34. Then, in September 2005 I got a Spyderco Military with a “super-steel” powdered metal CPM-S30V. While the new powdered steels are a definite improvement in many areas the old 154CM, N690, VG-10 and ATS-34 steels are still extremely practical. Still, we’re all steel junkies, that is, easily seduced by steels.

[araneae]

To answer your question, search pocket knife on Amazon. Next pick the least practical looking knives and go to the reviews. Note how many people say it holds a great edge. These are 3Cr13/420J2 knives that probably have garbage heat treat, but a lot of people find them great and claim they hold a great edge. So, if you are recommending something harder to maintain than vg-10 to the average person, yes, you are probably doing them a disservice unless you are doing all their maintenance.

I generally recommend an 8Cr13 blade to people who are inexperienced and no one ever complains, although some do move up to nicer knives after they get hooked.

[kobold]

Spy27 is (one of) the answers. It's too easy.

[p_atrick]

Interesting question. I think VG-10 falls into the category of a great beginner steel. It will be a better performer than what they are probably used to and it is not terribly difficult to sharpen. But it will probably be more challenging for a beginner. I think the learning curve and benefit tradeoffs are worth making. Plus VG-10 is standard on a variety of knives of different shapes and sizes. Could I say the same thing about S30V? Probably not due to sharpening. Again, it is not hard, but I think we all forgot about what it's like being a beginner.

Doc, you bring some perspective to the age-old debate of should Spyderco upgrade their default steels. If Spyderco only catered to current knife owners (i.e. K390 is the default steel for every model), they would severely limit their long-term viability as a company. They need to be inviting to people who don't yet like to carry a knife. So that's why Kobold's mention of SPY27 is spot on; a new steel that is an upgrade (at least to me and many people here) to S30V, which should still be accessible to beginners.

You specifically mention AEB-L. Your recent thread on the Urban has me carrying my AEB-L sprint. It is a great knife in a great steel. Is it a better beginner steel than VG-10? Yeah, I think so. Maybe? I don't have a good answer, but I like the question.

[James Y]

If a non-knife person ever asked me about getting himself a knife (which hasn’t happened yet), I would not recommend something like S110V, S90V, etc., etc. I’d probably recommend something in 8cr13mov from Spyderco. Or just an SAK.

There are some people on knife forums who assert that such “lower-end” steels are obsolete. Not true. Everybody and their needs are different. Just like not everybody is into tinkering with their knives and taking them apart. For many (most?) people out there who carry pocketknives, a pocketknife is a tool, and not of any particular interest or a hobby in and of themselves, other than can they get the job done well enough for them, at an affordable price point.

Jim

[standy99]

When I have that conversation with someone that wants a real knife

I always start with a Spyderco Delica.

Had two guys at work that started with the Delica then the next conversation came up... What next.

Took in a GB1 and a PM2. Oddly one bought a PM2 S35V and the other bought a GB2

The GB2 guy now has about 7 Spyderco’s with several custom handle scales.
The PM2 guy has 4 and recently bought a Native 5 Maxamet and Pink S30V DLC Delica.

So one turned into a scale mod guy and the other into a steel junkie.

[Evil D]

I think you can definitely lead them into a situation where they have a knife that has dulled and they have no way of sharpening it, and then they go to a sporting goods store and let a "professional sharpener" take the blade to a bench grinder and "sharpen" it and then you're ultimately doing a disservice to a good knife. I suppose this may happen to any steel if they can't sharpen or don't have any decent tools to sharpen with.

[GarageBoy]

So many people go to a store and buy the most expensive because it's the best - then they think about sharpening. Are they doing themselves a disservice?

[pantagana23]

Once the MagnaCut arrives, this will be the only thing I'll reccomend to anyone :D

[Evil D]

So many people go to a store and buy the most expensive because it's the best - then they think about sharpening. Are they doing themselves a disservice?

I bet a very large percentage of Benchmade sales come from people who shop at REI and buy Yeti coolers and see expensive stuff as a status symbol just as much as seeing it as a quality tool. That's not a shot at BM either, I would expect Spyderco to do the same but they've been pulled out of every sporting goods store I've found them in.

[z1r]

I think the "average" user would do best with the budget line and 8cr13mov. I always carry at least one knife with "obsolete" steel just because in a pinch I can bring the edge back using the bottom of my coffee cup.

[Xplorer]

Without a doubt, most people's sharpening ability is somewhere between lacking or completely non-existent. This group on this forum is full of exceptions but in general people don't know how to sharpen. One question I always ask everyone that is buying a knife from me is "what do you use to sharpen". These are people who are interested in knives enough to find me and spend hundreds of dollars on a custom knife, and the most common answer I get is "what do you suggest I buy?". Which to me, is the same as saying "I've never really cared about sharpening in the past but I think I better take it more seriously now that I'm buying this expensive knife".
So, in my experience I'd have to say yes it can be a disservice to suggest a steel that the person can't sharpen, and for most people that's a pretty low level of steel as we steel geeks would see it. A steel that a person can't sharpen effectively will be great until it's dull, then they're not going to enjoy the knife if they can't get it sharp again. What steel is too much depends on the person. One of the many reasons Cru-Wear is one of my favorite steels is because just about everyone can get it very sharp without any special stones, yet it still has great overall performance characteristics.
I also agree with pantagana23 that Magnacut will be a great high-performance steel suggestion that most people will be able to sharpen quite well, and I too will be suggesting it for many applications.

[wrdwrght]

No, to the question asked.

People who come to our forum already have interest in what Spyderco offers. What they get here, in abundance, is evidence that choices are many, in light of which they must ask more pointed questions to zero in on possibilities that will satisfy them.

[James Y]

I was under the impression that Doc was referring to average, non-knife people who might ask you about knives in person, not necessarily someone who would go through the process of looking up different companies and joining a specialty forum like Spyderco.. Someone who probably doesn’t even know (or probably even care) about different knife manufacturers, steels, etc., but wants to know what is a decent pocketknife.

Jim

[pantagana23]

No, to the question asked.

People who come to our forum already have interest in what Spyderco offers. What they get here, in abundance, is evidence that choices are many, in light of which they must ask more pointed questions to zero in on possibilities that will satisfy them.

This.
I came to this forum long after joining BF and "learning" about different steels and properties.
Once I got hooked mostly to Spyderco, I started lurking as most Google searches brought me here, and finally joined.

I think there are anvery few people here who don't differ SAK from Spyderco, or any other specialized brand for that matter.

[JRinFL]

...
Any thoughts? Do we do a disservice to others with recommending knives that are beyond the ability or desire of others to sharpen? Would it be better to recommend something easier and then if they are interested they can move up?

Sometime we do do a disservice. Just because we want certain attributes, it does not mean the average person wants or needs the same. Case and Victorinox have been selling the same stainless steel for decades and it serves the average person very well for their entire life. I believe it is 420HC or equivalent. There should be a steel like AEB-L that is lower cost and easier to sharpen across most of the Spyderco lineup, in my opinion. Not as the only steel, just as an available, non-Sprint option. Of course the steel snobs would light their torches and sharpen their pitchforks and head for SFO if that were to happen.

Other times, some people just ask the wrong question. Instead of asking "which steel is the easiest to sharpen", they should ask "how can I easily sharpen VG-10/S30V/etc." For those people, the upgraded steel is possibly the correct steel for their use.

[Menipo]

I agree.

To recommend high-end (even medium) steels to someone who has probably never considered sharpening his knife (but will take it to a store to have it sharpened by a cutting edge killer with a grinder when the knife no longer cuts even butter in the sun) is like recommending a Porsche Cayenne or a Range Rover to someone who wants a 4x4 and only knows to fill the gas tank when the marker turns red and have the car serviced once a year.

[Abyss_Fish]

It depends. If they know me well enough then they know I’d be happy to sharpen their knives for them. But in most cases (at least in my experience) non knife people are most worried about stainlesses and fine edge holding, so spy-27 and lc200n would be my two top picks. Anything fancier will be either too hard to maintain or won’t preform like they want it to. s30v is the farthest I’d venture into “super steels”, but even then s30v is pretty chippy and non-knife people tend to break their tips pretty quick...

So to answer your original question, yeah basically. Most will mistake user error for problems with the steel. Ductility and stainless are the two things to shoot for in my opinion, those new lc200n sekis are great “non-knife people knives” as are the spy27 native and para 3 lightweights.

[Steeltoez83]

I lend out my knives all the time to family and friends. The details of sharpening are an after thought in the beginning. Finding a design that fits their hand and appeals to the eye is the starting point. Most if not all are coming from gas station or other poorly heat treated steels anyways. If they want to stick around for a sharpening demonstration that's fine but it's their choice. Knowing I can fix almost every issue allows them to use cutting tools in which they were designed for. Afterall this is their journey not mine. The willingness to spend the time educating newcomers is not a disservice, it's a righteous path imo.