Do we do people disservice?

[kobold]

Knife enthusiasts know that steel is not as important as heat treat and blade geometry. I think this is the truth that needs to be known among non-knife people. Steels come and go, but the importance of a good HT and blade geometry is eternal.

[Doc Dan]

I had another thought on this thread that's basically the opposite. Do we sometimes sell people short by trying to hold them back from higher end steels?

An example, my best friend is a sort of guinea pig for me. I've given him a couple knives specifically to see how the knife holds up. He's the kind of guy who's definitely a knife user but not at all a knife junkie, he has no idea about what steel he's using or why it would be better than the next, he just knows if it works for his needs or not. In that way he's a great source for a 100% unbiased opinion because he's not at all influenced by the internet hype that all steels get. At the same time I've also been cautious about what I give him, because for one I'll be fixing the edge damage so I'm a little hesitant to hand him something in Maxamet, but I guess if I'm honest there's a weird little egotistical part of me that feels like he isn't ready or isn't worthy of the higher end stuff and that feels kinda crappy to admit. I sorta feel like I've had this very long journey cutting my teeth and figuring out all these steels and learning what works and the idea of letting a "newbie" just jump right into some K390/Maxamet feels like he's cheating. That make sense or am I just crazy?

Well, I do think there are people we can give stuff to and they will use it. One issue is, who will sharpen it? If we recommend a knife don't we have to assume someone, someday, somehow will sharpen the knife? I know I do not want to be doing that forever. to be honest, there are a lot of folks who are simply not interested in learning all of the things we know. They just want to pull out a knife when needed, use it, and put it up out of sight and mind until the next time. If they do try to sharpen, it is going to be the least troublesome way and they don't care if it has a wire edge or anything else. they will not even notice a rolled or chipped edge.

There are some people, however, that we can give something to and they have their world opened up for them. They will use it, learn to sharpen it, and might even move on to other steels. It happens on this forum all of the time.

I just feel that for the first group, easy and low maintenance is better. The second group is something else, again.

[Evil D]

I had another thought on this thread that's basically the opposite. Do we sometimes sell people short by trying to hold them back from higher end steels?

An example, my best friend is a sort of guinea pig for me. I've given him a couple knives specifically to see how the knife holds up. He's the kind of guy who's definitely a knife user but not at all a knife junkie, he has no idea about what steel he's using or why it would be better than the next, he just knows if it works for his needs or not. In that way he's a great source for a 100% unbiased opinion because he's not at all influenced by the internet hype that all steels get. At the same time I've also been cautious about what I give him, because for one I'll be fixing the edge damage so I'm a little hesitant to hand him something in Maxamet, but I guess if I'm honest there's a weird little egotistical part of me that feels like he isn't ready or isn't worthy of the higher end stuff and that feels kinda crappy to admit. I sorta feel like I've had this very long journey cutting my teeth and figuring out all these steels and learning what works and the idea of letting a "newbie" just jump right into some K390/Maxamet feels like he's cheating. That make sense or am I just crazy?

Well, I do think there are people we can give stuff to and they will use it. One issue is, who will sharpen it? If we recommend a knife don't we have to assume someone, someday, somehow will sharpen the knife? I know I do not want to be doing that forever. to be honest, there are a lot of folks who are simply not interested in learning all of the things we know. They just want to pull out a knife when needed, use it, and put it up out of sight and mind until the next time. If they do try to sharpen, it is going to be the least troublesome way and they don't care if it has a wire edge or anything else. they will not even notice a rolled or chipped edge.

There are some people, however, that we can give something to and they have their world opened up for them. They will use it, learn to sharpen it, and might even move on to other steels. It happens on this forum all of the time.

I just feel that for the first group, easy and low maintenance is better. The second group is something else, again.

That's true. I did once sell a guy my ZDP Delica and he took it to Bass Pro Shop to have it "professionally sharpened" which literally was a guy with a bench grinder and he absolutely murdered the bevel. I have pics of that one somewhere. I ended up fixing it for him and it was a major chore. I guess if they're at all interested in learning it would be easier to recommend a more forgiving steel.

[Mrj]

I always recommend a regular para 3 in s30v if they ask what’s a good knife. But most people I encounter, hunt. So the are always getting fixed blades. But advice should be more informative then recommendation. Let them know if it’s above 50$ you should probably think about how they would sharpen it. SE is what I usually recommend for those wanting something that everything. It’s only a disservice if you don’t inform. I think majority of watchers of our threads are flippers, collectors, and casual users. If they were serious into knives they’d hopefully already understand that knives and sharpening go hand and hand. I guess for me teaching someone to sharpen their knife would be more a service than recommending maxamet because it won’t need to be sharpened for a long while. Lol.

[Snacktime]

Lets all flash back to 2000s and new steels just blew everyone away. Diamond stones became popular around the same time. I can tell you my dad spent some big money to get his new gerber hunting knife and diamond stones. He locked them both up in the gun safe to keep us boys(18-21 year olds) from touching them.

Now the pricing for these products has made them mainstream. I recommend higher end steels to people that I feel can use them. Rex 45 blew my dad away and I have a cousin in the aircraft composite industry who now has a spyderco m390. I bought my wife a 440C hand made custom, right steel for our 1 week camping trips. I am going to gift my brother a knife, needs to 1/4" thick sharpened pry bar because he is gas station knife killer.

I feel once you get to the point of asking what knife, you are on the road to high end steel. I don't recommend anything way out there, its all about the finding what is right. I need to go move all my knives to the gun safe as my dad is coming over...

[James Y]

Well, I do think there are people we can give stuff to and they will use it. One issue is, who will sharpen it? If we recommend a knife don't we have to assume someone, someday, somehow will sharpen the knife? I know I do not want to be doing that forever. to be honest, there are a lot of folks who are simply not interested in learning all of the things we know. They just want to pull out a knife when needed, use it, and put it up out of sight and mind until the next time. If they do try to sharpen, it is going to be the least troublesome way and they don't care if it has a wire edge or anything else. they will not even notice a rolled or chipped edge.

There are some people, however, that we can give something to and they have their world opened up for them. They will use it, learn to sharpen it, and might even move on to other steels. It happens on this forum all of the time.

I just feel that for the first group, easy and low maintenance is better. The second group is something else, again.

I had assumed from the start that this thread was discussing the type from the first group. The vast majority of people I know in my life are in that category. And a couple of them even asked me what would be a good (pocket) knife, and when I tried to explain different possible models, steels, etc., one just gave me a blank look and forgot they even asked. The other said he just wanted something cheap and simple. That was many years ago. I learned from those two experiences not to try preaching a sermon to people who just want a simple answer and aren’t looking for some type of epiphany about a simple pocketknife.

As knife afi’s, most forumites seem to assume that anyone who asks about a knife will share our enthusiasm for the hobby, and want to know all about the metallurgy, the different models, locking mechanisms, handle materials, quality levels, sharpening systems, etc., if only we would educate them and show them the light. Well, that might be true for someone who goes through the process of creating an account and posting a question here, and it might happen (rarely) from time to time in life, but the vast majority of people really don’t care that much, and aren’t looking to be converted.

Jim

[Doc Dan]

Well, I do think there are people we can give stuff to and they will use it. One issue is, who will sharpen it? If we recommend a knife don't we have to assume someone, someday, somehow will sharpen the knife? I know I do not want to be doing that forever. to be honest, there are a lot of folks who are simply not interested in learning all of the things we know. They just want to pull out a knife when needed, use it, and put it up out of sight and mind until the next time. If they do try to sharpen, it is going to be the least troublesome way and they don't care if it has a wire edge or anything else. they will not even notice a rolled or chipped edge.

There are some people, however, that we can give something to and they have their world opened up for them. They will use it, learn to sharpen it, and might even move on to other steels. It happens on this forum all of the time.

I just feel that for the first group, easy and low maintenance is better. The second group is something else, again.

I had assumed from the start that this thread was discussing the type from the first group. The vast majority of people I know in my life are in that category. And a couple of them even asked me what would be a good (pocket) knife, and when I tried to explain different possible models, steels, etc., one just gave me a blank look and forgot they even asked. The other said he just wanted something cheap and simple. That was many years ago. I learned from those two experiences not to try preaching a sermon to people who just want a simple answer and aren’t looking for some type of epiphany about a simple pocketknife.

As knife afi’s, most forumites seem to assume that anyone who asks about a knife will share our enthusiasm for the hobby, and want to know all about the metallurgy, the different models, locking mechanisms, handle materials, quality levels, sharpening systems, etc., if only we would educate them and show them the light. Well, that might be true for someone who goes through the process of creating an account and posting a question here, and it might happen (rarely) from time to time in life, but the vast majority of people really don’t care that much, and aren’t looking to be converted.

Jim

Yes, I agree. We may convert a few, but the vast majority are not interested in what we know or our hobby. They just want to have something that cuts. They are not going to bother much with sharpening unless they are forced to do so by a knife that won't cut a string...maybe not even then. At most a pull through sharpener is what they will use...again, maybe.

I think if the truth were known, a lot of people buying high end knives and knives in the latest super steels are in that category a little. They buy them, but they never sharpen them. It is only for showing off and talking about it all. I'm not saying this is bad. At least they recognize quality. I think many steels and knives are over the heads and abilities of most people.

[PaloArt]

Hi Doc, very good point.

I would like to share few thoughts on this one as I think we do disservice not only to average folks (mind I mean not a knifenuts) but as well people starting this wonderful hobby. People purchasing as a first knife, as per recommendation, something in S110v will be frustrated by inability to sharpen that beast due to lack of equipment and skills as well... Which ends up in somewhat bitter feelings, lost capital, ending up with piece of cutlery they do not enjoy etc. On the other hand recomending something in humble but proven VG10, N690, CTS BD1 will do much more service due to decent edge holding and ease of sharpening.

I do happen to pick more often Spyderco knife from my "collection" in humble steels as AUS-6 or VG10 for daily carry as I just prefer and like more those models and steels behavior rather than those few pieces in "super" steels category (CPM S90V, K390..) which might drive me crazy sometimes during maintenance (those small dings in blades and stubborn burrs... :rolleyes: )

I have a feeling that sometimes people are looking for super mega ultra resistant steels just for the feeling of having them but do not use the knife most of the time and would be ok just with humble Victorinox knife but those romantic fantasies of opening a hatch on a tank with knife finished with victorious scream just does not go away! Of course there are few who use their knives and see the benefit of super steels but not many people like that exist I think.

Just my two cents.

[Xformer]

I don't recommend knife to people, unless it's a cheap victorinox or a 8€ Opinel they can put to hard use without regret.

Knives are good tool, but they're high maintenance. Recommending a non-enthusiast to pay more than 60€ for a tool that will dull and become useless to them in the span of a month of two isn't a good advice... unless you can sharpen it for them.

Enthusiasts refuse to hear it, but when someone buy a tool, usually they will use it really hard. Most people don't buy a screwdriver to oil it, refine it and treat it carefully. That's what I do too. When I buy a PM2, I use it hard (hence why I'm asking for a stronger tip).

So, yeah... I don't recommend enthusiast-level knives for non-enthusiast.

The sharpening problem is a big deterent of owning a knife imo. I can sharpen a knife on a DC4, but it took weeks of practice and I still mess up from time to time. I use a KME system now, but I paid 200+ € on it. That's still a problem that needs to be solved. Once someone manage to invent a cheap and easy way to sharpen a knife that don't ruin it, the problem will be solved. Stones are way too hard to use for most people and you can't ask them to spend month learning the technique.