Serrated Edge Retention

[stanolszews]

First of all, the Spyder Edge is as much of a "revolutionary concept" as the opening hole and the pocket clip. Specifically, the Spyder Edge Ladybugs are the real deal. If you don't have one, get one. Or get two. The H1 Ladybug with the hawk bill blade, probably my favorite, is essentially a weightless pocket chainsaw.

So what's the deal with serrated edge retention? H1 is good when it's serrated? Serrated H1 is better than serrated LC200N? What's it like on S30V? My serrated hawk bill H1 Ladybug seems pretty good; the serrations make it a solid cutting tool even when it's not freshly sharpened, but it's a true savage after touching it up. Steel obviously matters, but it seems like there is some nuance when you introduce serrations.

[yablanowitz]

Serrations are a whole different world. Serrated H-1 seems to be the record holder for edge retention in CATRA testing. I recall Sal once saying it was nearly twice as strong as VG-10 (tensile strength I think). That is important in serrated edges. I've had teeth break off on serrated VG-10, but not on H-1. Sal also told us he had someone with a micro hardness tester check a serrated H-1 blade and they found the edge was about as hard as ZDP-189 while the spine was much softer, as if it had been differentially heat treated.

LC200N did not impress me in the Mule Team, so I've not paid much attention to it since. The only steels I've really used in SE are H-1, 8Cr13MoV, VG-10, ATS-55 and Gin-1.

[JRinFL]

My personal experience with serrated H1 has not impressed me. It dulls just as fast as plain edge, for me. Because the edge is much thinner it does cut longer and better, but so would plain edge if you thinned out to match the SE thinness. YMMV

[Wartstein]

Spydercos serrated edges will almost always have better edge retention than plain edge in the exact same steel and blade as far as I know (and certainly in my experience). My thoughts why this could be:

- Serrations make in fact for a longer cutting edge than PE in a blade of the same length (so each point on a serrated edge comes on contact less often with matter that gets cut, just because the "cutting" is distributed over a longer amount of edge)
- When cutting on a surface just the "spikes"m but never the very sharp scallops come in contact with that surface, so the latter can´t dull by that
- Matter that gets cut is initially penetrated by the "spikes" on a serrated edge, the sharp scallops have an easier cutting after that (so often times less pressure on the scallops than it would be on a plain edge)
- Spydercos serrated edges are chisel grind, and have by that a more acute edge angle than PE. More acute edges have by tendency a better edge retention than obtuser ones (depends on what gets cut of course and how acute the angle actually is, TOO acute, and the edge could "break down").

Just random thoughts!! Don´t quote me on those, I could be wrong

[VooDooChild]

Lets get a little philisophical here.

When is a saw dull?
vs.
When can a saw no longer cut?

Define dull...

etc

I guess what Im arguing here is that a serrated knife thats been used a handful of times is technically dull, but unless you have worn the teeth completely flat it will still cut.

I remember reading sal say
"geometry cuts, steel determines the duration of the cut".
Serrations are always going to have a geometry advantage even when dull.

[wrdwrght]

Serrations are a whole different world. Serrated H-1 seems to be the record holder for edge retention in CATRA testing. I recall Sal once saying it was nearly twice as strong as VG-10 (tensile strength I think). That is important in serrated edges. I've had teeth break off on serrated VG-10, but not on H-1. Sal also told us he had someone with a micro hardness tester check a serrated H-1 blade and they found the edge was about as hard as ZDP-189 while the spine was much softer, as if it had been differentially heat treated.

To substantiate...

Responding in BladeForums (post #16 in https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/h1- ... ost4484958), Sal said:

“When the foundry rolls the H1, they roll to two different hardness, we end up with 58 for the blade material and considerably lower spec for the lock material. Not meaning to be disrespectful, but the two hardnesses are controlled by the rolling process.

“Dick Barber, metallurgist for Crucible steels was curious as to why the H1 steel was testing so well and wanted to do metallurgical testing on the material. We sent them samples and they did their tests. In their micro hardness testing, they found the H1 was differentially hardening. Their explanation was as I described.

“The were getting over 60 (64/65 as I remembber the report) at the edge of the blade, 58 at the spine and various hardness in between as they went from the spine to the edge.

“The serrted edge version was higher (68 as I remember) which Mr. Barber attributed to the extra "work" (heat) required to serrate the edge over just sharpening as on the plain edge.”

[Evil D]

I can't push myself to let them dull to the point that I'd have an estimate for edge retention. From my uses I can't really tell a difference between LC and H1 edge retention or toughness. H1 is likely better at some level but I'll sharpen my knife long before I get there. Dull serrations tend to snag and that's something I like to avoid.

I do have a ridiculous test coming up for my Caribbean though..

[Jason Paul]

I can't push myself to let them dull to the point that I'd have an estimate for edge retention. From my uses I can't really tell a difference between LC and H1 edge retention or toughness. H1 is likely better at some level but I'll sharpen my knife long before I get there. Dull serrations tend to snag and that's something I like to avoid.

I do have a ridiculous test coming up for my Caribbean though..

Will the "ridiculous test" be in the Gauntlet thread, or a new one?

[Evil D]

I can't push myself to let them dull to the point that I'd have an estimate for edge retention. From my uses I can't really tell a difference between LC and H1 edge retention or toughness. H1 is likely better at some level but I'll sharpen my knife long before I get there. Dull serrations tend to snag and that's something I like to avoid.

I do have a ridiculous test coming up for my Caribbean though..

Will the "ridiculous test" be in the Gauntlet thread, or a new one?

Yes. I can just about guarantee it's a cut test nobody has ever done before.

[ladybug93]

I can't push myself to let them dull to the point that I'd have an estimate for edge retention. From my uses I can't really tell a difference between LC and H1 edge retention or toughness. H1 is likely better at some level but I'll sharpen my knife long before I get there. Dull serrations tend to snag and that's something I like to avoid.

I do have a ridiculous test coming up for my Caribbean though..

Will the "ridiculous test" be in the Gauntlet thread, or a new one?

Yes. I can just about guarantee it's a cut test nobody has ever done before.

you've already done ridiculous tests when you carved wood and bone with a serrated caribbean.

[tonijedi]

I can't push myself to let them dull to the point that I'd have an estimate for edge retention. From my uses I can't really tell a difference between LC and H1 edge retention or toughness. H1 is likely better at some level but I'll sharpen my knife long before I get there. Dull serrations tend to snag and that's something I like to avoid.

I do have a ridiculous test coming up for my Caribbean though..

Will the "ridiculous test" be in the Gauntlet thread, or a new one?

Yes. I can just about guarantee it's a cut test nobody has ever done before.

Please, cut a shoe :D

[Evil D]

Please, cut a shoe :D

It's the same level of nonsense :D

[sal]

Hi Stanolszews,

Welcome to our forum.

"The Edge is a Ghost". A serrated edge is a Ghost on steroids. Edges, while very interesting is something we humans have been studying and using for more than 40,000 years. We are still trying to understand and improve the edge.

When we first began making serrated folding knives back in '82, it was and still is very controversial. This forum is a good place to discuss and gain some understanding of the Edge. we call them "high performance mater separators".

sal

[RustyIron]

No one ever mentions the difference in the angle between a plain edge and a serrated edge. I don't know the numbers, but I'm gonna bet it's a factor worthy of consideration.

[Wartstein]

No one ever mentions the difference in the angle between a plain edge and a serrated edge. I don't know the numbers, but I'm gonna bet it's a factor worthy of consideration.

Should you mean edge angle (more acute on Spydercos SE due to the chisel grind): I (and others) mention that all the time, and again in this very thread... (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89331#p1511123)

[dan31]

Big fan of serrations. Currently have 3, SS Mariner I carried in my SAR vest when I was in the service, SE Endela and SE lil native. I do prefer the nice plain edge at the tip of the last two. They will keep on cutting long after a plain edge loses its bite.

[Doc Dan]

I have to admit I had all of the prejudices that the average person has about the saw teeth on a knife (most confuse with actual saw teeth on a Rambo knife). When I bought a fully serrated knife from another maker, I hated the way it caught and tore everything I tried to cut. It was terrible and I got rid of the knife, finally. Someone gave me a fully serrated Spyderco Native 5 and I began to change my mind. It was not as bad at tearing things, and then Vivi taught me that the knife was not sharp enough. Once I sorted that out, the cutting ability was amazing. Now I have two H1 full Spyderedge knives. Lordy how those things cut!

[kobold]

From what I read, I think H1 hardens by work aimed at changing its shape. Cold-shaping. The same way rivets, nails, nuts and screws are made. I guess that is why SE H1 is harder than PE. I think of it as compression.

[ladybug93]

I have to admit I had all of the prejudices that the average person has about the saw teeth on a knife (most confuse with actual saw teeth on a Rambo knife). When I bought a fully serrated knife from another maker, I hated the way it caught and tore everything I tried to cut. It was terrible and I got rid of the knife, finally. Someone gave me a fully serrated Spyderco Native 5 and I began to change my mind. It was not as bad at tearing things, and then Vivi taught me that the knife was not sharp enough. Once I sorted that out, the cutting ability was amazing. Now I have two H1 full Spyderedge knives. Lordy how those things cut!

i've had multiple people tell me my caribbean looks like a saw instead of a knife. :rolleyes:

[Doc Dan]

I have to admit I had all of the prejudices that the average person has about the saw teeth on a knife (most confuse with actual saw teeth on a Rambo knife). When I bought a fully serrated knife from another maker, I hated the way it caught and tore everything I tried to cut. It was terrible and I got rid of the knife, finally. Someone gave me a fully serrated Spyderco Native 5 and I began to change my mind. It was not as bad at tearing things, and then Vivi taught me that the knife was not sharp enough. Once I sorted that out, the cutting ability was amazing. Now I have two H1 full Spyderedge knives. Lordy how those things cut!

i've had multiple people tell me my caribbean looks like a saw instead of a knife. :rolleyes:

Yeah, it is amazing how the misinformed media forms opinions and also stupid movie props.