Smaller P'kal

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ZrowsN1s
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:37 pm

dd61999 wrote:
ZrowsN1s wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:05 pm
Might work. You should sketch up what you have in mind.
I’m not known for drawing skills

But a scaled down baby p'kal is what I’m thinking
sal wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:49 pm
.....
I'll think about a smaller P'Kal, or maybe ask Roque, or proto guy to cut a P'Kal down for me to play with. I don't think that taking off a half or even 3/4 of an inch would make that much difference. I'll try to draw one up with a 2.0" blade.

sal
I had a spare moment this evening so I drew something up just to see what it would look like.
Image
Lil' P'kal. What do you think?
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Reject
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby Reject » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:52 pm

Could the same result be achieved by modifying the blades on a couple of existing models?
Adding a wave to the Wharncliffe blade of the Delica or the Dragonfly would get you fairly close to what you are after.
Plus, :o The Delica and Dragonfly a little more friendly looking than the P’kal.

Shouldn’t take too much to modify the cutting edge to match the P’kal.

Putting a tail on the Dragonfly would aid with grip. The stubby lanyard can be held in the hand or dropped between the fingers.

Image

Image

Now; :D if Spyderco is going to start downsizing knives. :) How about a down sized Ronin?

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How much can a Koala bear?

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vivi
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby vivi » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:04 pm

This thread makes me wonder what a pikal swick would be like.
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:37 am

You may very well be able to mod a P'kal to a lil pkal. The issue with modding other knives is 1. The handle 2. The blade shape and orientation 3. Wave 4. Lock .

The P'kal can penetrate material better than just about any knife I've tried. This is from a combination of the handle, blade shape, and orientation.

Using a dragonfly or Delica handle for reverse edge in grip just doesn't work. And you could mod a wharncliffe blade but it wouldn't have a wave. And the waved knives are all saber grinds. The P'kal is the only full flat grind waved knife. There's also the issue of the lock. For a blade that is that rapid stab oriented, the CBBL lock is the ideal strong lock for the job.
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby Sumdumguy » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:03 am

vivi wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:04 pm
This thread makes me wonder what a pikal swick would be like.
The picture on page one is almost identical to what that would be. Just a slightly different handle shape.

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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:14 pm

If I could reiterate my last post a little better, part of what makes the P'kal an effective stabbing tool in RGEI is the positive blade angle.

If you hold a wharn-delica in RGEI what you get is a very negative blade angle. This causes stabs to land mostly on the tip and spine of the blade. Resulting in very little penetration.

If you modded the blade to make the angle positive in this grip you would have to grind away half the blade. You'd also end up with the tip near the spine where the blade is thicker on the FFG.
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby dd61999 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:29 pm

sal wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:27 pm
You mentioned "grappling". Are you a LEO? Where do you carry your Clinch Pick and how do you deploy it?

The handle on our P'Kal is not quite 4.5", A 3" handle would be only for 3 fingers and might be hard to hold onto in a situation? The "Clinch Pick" shown has a Perrin Finger Ring which certainly helps with retention. Have you seen a "Swick"?

Our P'Kal has a large indent next to the spine of the blade to help with retention. Are you thinking to keep the indent, but just make the blade and handle shorter?

I can't find any information or reference to the "Clinch Pick" shown above. All I can find is Southnarc's original version. Can you point me to any?

sal
Grappling as in Brazilian Jiu jitsu and wrestling.

The clinch pick is designed to be worn on the front of your belt, for easy access during tight clinch positions. Situations that drastically reduces your range of motion while deploying.sometimes you can’t even move your arms, you twist your hips to assist in deploying.

The smaller blade also helps in these extreme close quarter situations in not only deploying but also working within the tight spaces of the clinch.

The smaller handle is easier to pull out of your pocket or waistband then the larger p'kal in various grappling positions. Such as sitting in the car. Which Craig Douglas teaches in his shivworks classes.

I am not a LEO. I’m a business executive, so carrying a clinch pick would be exposed when wearing a tucked in dress shirt. In addition it’s not as comfortable as having a folder in your pocket or waist band.

A three inch handle is small. But the clinch pick handle is even smaller. However, the swollen scales allows a secure grip in the hand.

I think keeping the indent is important to use as a hand stop. However a hand stop could be incorporated into the blade like the clinch pick below.
1ACB25A4-A177-4791-BBB1-26A69268479C.jpeg

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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby dd61999 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:39 pm

Here is a great video on Craig Douglas (south narc) explaining the design of the small clinch pick and demonstrates how it’s used in extreme close quarters situations

I think a smaller p'kal would work better in this situation rather then the standard size p'kal. Especially for those who rather have a folder instead of a fixed blade, for various reasons I mentioned earlier


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwNFvOaqh94

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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby dd61999 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:42 pm

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:37 pm
dd61999 wrote:
ZrowsN1s wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:05 pm
Might work. You should sketch up what you have in mind.
I’m not known for drawing skills

But a scaled down baby p'kal is what I’m thinking
sal wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:49 pm
.....
I'll think about a smaller P'Kal, or maybe ask Roque, or proto guy to cut a P'Kal down for me to play with. I don't think that taking off a half or even 3/4 of an inch would make that much difference. I'll try to draw one up with a 2.0" blade.

sal
I had a spare moment this evening so I drew something up just to see what it would look like.
Image
Lil' P'kal. What do you think?
Love it, but maybe a narrower blade since you are “stabbing and ripping” in a defense scenario

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dd61999
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby dd61999 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:44 pm

Reject wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:52 pm
Could the same result be achieved by modifying the blades on a couple of existing models?
Adding a wave to the Wharncliffe blade of the Delica or the Dragonfly would get you fairly close to what you are after.
Plus, :o The Delica and Dragonfly a little more friendly looking than the P’kal.

Shouldn’t take too much to modify the cutting edge to match the P’kal.

Putting a tail on the Dragonfly would aid with grip. The stubby lanyard can be held in the hand or dropped between the fingers.

Image

Image









I love the dragonfly, but it doesn’t work because the finger choil gets caught in clothing when using it reverse grip edge in. But the size does make it easier to deploy





.
Last edited by dd61999 on Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sal
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby sal » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:45 pm

Thanx DD,

Craig knows his stuff. I worked with him quite a bit while working on the folding P'Kal. At least a year in the designing. I can see where the Perrin finger Ring would be an asset to a "Clinch Pick". In my opinion, the most important thing about a self defense knife is that you don't drop it. The downside of the finger ring is that you have to already have a finger in the ring before you have to deploy.

I agree that the indent would be a critical necessity in a smaller P'Kal.

sal

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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby dd61999 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:46 pm

sal wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:45 pm
Thanx DD,

Craig knows his stuff. I worked with him quite a bit while working on the folding P'Kal. At least a year in the designing. I can see where the Perrin finger Ring would be an asset to a "Clinch Pick". In my opinion, the most important thing about a self defense knife is that you don't drop it. The downside of the finger ring is that you have to already have a finger in the ring before you have to deploy.

I agree that the indent would be a critical necessity in a smaller P'Kal.

sal
Optimally I prefer no Perrin finger ring because it will be much harder to deploy

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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby sal » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:33 am

We'll make a proto and I'll test it. I've called for 2.0" blade. We can mod from there.

sal

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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby JRinFL » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:56 am

I'm not a fighter, but I would be wary of any knife with a metal ring around one of my digits. It seems it would be easy to get your finder trapped and broken or de-gloved. Neither of which would be an asset during a crisis.
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby Sumdumguy » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:37 am

dd61999 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:46 pm
sal wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:45 pm
Thanx DD,

Craig knows his stuff. I worked with him quite a bit while working on the folding P'Kal. At least a year in the designing. I can see where the Perrin finger Ring would be an asset to a "Clinch Pick". In my opinion, the most important thing about a self defense knife is that you don't drop it. The downside of the finger ring is that you have to already have a finger in the ring before you have to deploy.

I agree that the indent would be a critical necessity in a smaller P'Kal.

sal
Optimally I prefer no Perrin finger ring because it will be much harder to deploy
I disagree with this 100% and suspect that you have never handled one. Locating the ring is a new element, yes. But, it is in no way difficult. With almost no practice, it becomes second nature.

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dd61999
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby dd61999 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:18 am

Sumdumguy wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:37 am
dd61999 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:46 pm
sal wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:45 pm
Thanx DD,

Craig knows his stuff. I worked with him quite a bit while working on the folding P'Kal. At least a year in the designing. I can see where the Perrin finger Ring would be an asset to a "Clinch Pick". In my opinion, the most important thing about a self defense knife is that you don't drop it. The downside of the finger ring is that you have to already have a finger in the ring before you have to deploy.

I agree that the indent would be a critical necessity in a smaller P'Kal.

sal
Optimally I prefer no Perrin finger ring because it will be much harder to deploy
I disagree with this 100% and suspect that you have never handled one. Locating the ring is a new element, yes. But, it is in no way difficult. With almost no practice, it becomes second nature.

When grappling I prefer the handle of my clinch pick or TDI knife over my Emerson Lagriffe. Especially when your opponent has control of your wrists or you need to grab with your opposite hand. Your findings may vary

When your talking about a folder like the p'kal, it’s an extra step when using the shivworks method of RGBI. You have to deploy, roll the knife and insert your finger into the knife

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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby ZrowsN1s » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:32 am

dd61999 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:42 pm

.........
Love it, but maybe a narrower blade since you are “stabbing and ripping” in a defense scenario
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby sal » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:18 pm

If you deploy the P'Kal as designed, simply closing your hand after deploying ends up in RGEI.

sal

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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby sal » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:09 pm

The 2.0" drawing seemed too small so I'm going with a 2.25" blade.

sal

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dd61999
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Re: Smaller P'kal

Postby dd61999 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:19 am

sal wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:09 pm
The 2.0" drawing seemed too small so I'm going with a 2.25" blade.

sal

That sounds about perfect. It’s about the same usable length of the Craig Douglas clinch pick after you palm the knife

5B66D758-7D82-4D4A-9D3D-0D8D6EDA046E.jpeg


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