Handle foreward Native 5

[Doc Dan]

Because of the choil the Native 5 has a blade length of only 0.12" longer than the Urban Lightweight, which is a small knife. If the handle were fixed by moving it forward like on the Rockjumper, getting rid of the choil, the blade could have a full 3" cutting edge.

[Gtscotty]

Because of the choil the Native 5 has a blade length of only 0.12" longer than the Urban Lightweight, which is a small knife. If the handle were fixed by moving it forward like on the Rockjumper, getting rid of the choil, the blade could have a full 3" cutting edge.

I prefer the choil sized and located the way it is, it's excellent for fine blade control. I don't really think that replacing the choil with more handle would "fix" anything that needs fixing. More blade length isn't necessarily value added, and I can't think of anything that I've cut with one of my Natives where an extra 0.4" would have made any difference.

[Doc Dan]

I can, for sure.

[Gtscotty]

I can, for sure.

Those that want more blade have many options. Disassembling elk, deer, antelope, etc is a chore where I prefer a little more blade, but I'd never use the Native for that when many other better tools for the specific task exist, namely 3.5"-4.5" fixed blades. I'm not saying that no one ever needs bigger blades, just that most of the time I don't, and when I do, I surely wouldn't grab my Native, even if it had an extra 0.4" of blade (especially at the expense of the excellent choil).

[Wartstein]

I prefer the choil sized and located the way it is, it's excellent for fine blade control. I don't really think that replacing the choil with more handle would "fix" anything that needs fixing. More blade length isn't necessarily value added, and I can't think of anything that I've cut with one of my Natives where an extra 0.4" would have made any difference.

Those that want more blade have many options. Disassembling elk, deer, antelope, etc is a chore where I prefer a little more blade, but I'd never use the Native for that when many other better tools for the specific task exist, namely 3.5"-4.5" fixed blades. I'm not saying that no one ever needs bigger blades, just that most of the time I don't, and when I do, I surely wouldn't grab my Native, even if it had an extra 0.4" of blade (especially at the expense of the excellent choil).

While I support Docs idea and think a choil-less, handle-forward Native would be a better Native, of course I think it should be just an addition or even a totally different model! The current Native 5 should not be taken away from those who find it perfect as it is! Actually, I liked my Native 5 LW a lot too, and mainly sold it cause the Chaparral did most things even better in a more compact size but still almost the same amount of cutting edge.

That being said:

1.) I am still not sure why you think the Native choil makes for better "fine blade control" than a handle that places the hand exactly as close to the handle as a choil? AND offers more "meat" beneath the index finger than just the metal of the choil?
Actually, the particular choil of the Native 5 for me does feel great when just holding the knife or doing light cutting. As soon as I do harder cutting or whittling though, the choil leads to the knife "turning" and "shifting" in my hand (this certainly not be true for all hand/finger sizes and is not true for me either with choils in other knives. The Chap for example remains really solid in my hand with the finger in the choil, even if I really bare down on it)

2.) A handle forward Native would place your hand as close to the edge as a choil would plus offer more cutting edge.
Now you say (quote) "I can't think of anything that I've cut with one of my Natives where an extra 0.4" would have made any difference" I certainly believe you (!), but it still surprises me a bit: In my regular "EDC life" there are many tasks where a longer edge comes in handy: Cutting stuff with larger diameter, cutting food, but first and foremost: Even if I CAN cut stuff with a short edge, a longer is more efficient in other aspects: One drawing motion instead of several back and force motions; Blade will stay sharp longer; PARTS of the blade will more likely still be sharp after a long day of cutting; .and so on.
And keep in mind: A handle forward Native would NOT have a longer BLADE, but just a longer EDGE...

[skeeg11]

IMHO the handle forward lock back design would be more beneficial for hand comfort and positioning in larger knives like the Native Chief than the Native 5 whereas doing so with smaller knives may be limiting for some.

[Matus]

There is one thing with back-lock knives and finger choils. The finger choil makes it much easier to close the knife without accidentally cutting yourself. Look at the SpyOpera. Super cute little knife with a very smooth back-lock. Several reviewers managed to cut themselves when getting to know the knife. Not a deal breaker, but it is there. The Native 5 excels in the role of a smaller utility/work knife and part of the reason is the finger choil.

But I would be the last person to try to persuade Spyderco NOT to bring another knife to the market

[Wartstein]

There is one thing with back-lock knives and finger choils. The finger choil makes it much easier to close the knife without accidentally cutting yourself. Look at the SpyOpera. Super cute little knife with a very smooth back-lock. Several reviewers managed to cut themselves when getting to know the knife. Not a deal breaker, but it is there. The Native 5 excels in the role of a smaller utility/work knife and part of the reason is the finger choil.

But I would be the last person to try to persuade Spyderco NOT to bring another knife to the market

1.)There are like 5 or more safe-for-fingers and easy options of closing a Backlock one handed... one even with fingers all the time out of the blade path

2.) And more important in this context: Sals handle forward design is specifically DESIGNED so that the knife can be closed exactly as if it had a choil... see RockJumper...

[Wartstein]

There is one thing with back-lock knives and finger choils. The finger choil makes it much easier to close the knife without accidentally cutting yourself....

Added to my post above, since I happen to have made the three vids of three alternative, safe closing methods for a backlock (one with fingers all the time out of the blade path): See vids below (one time shown very slow, two times regular speed)
People just refuse to look into this methods, or believe in the myth that the only way to close a backlock one handed would be to let the choil drop on the forefinger (but again: With Sals handle forward design even THIS method works with choil-less knives perfectly fine too!!)

https://streamable.com/j7fjd

https://streamable.com/bhhzs

https://streamable.com/myzlt

[Matus]

https://streamable.com/j7fjd

https://streamable.com/bhhzs

https://streamable.com/myzlt

Cool, I like that. I am actually sometimes use the later method when closing my GB1.

[Woodpuppy]

The place for a choil is on smaller knives to give a bigger handle on a compact package. I see no benefit of the choil on larger knives, especially on rampless designs. I do like how this is handled on the Military, with a grip optimized for using the thumb ramp, and a forward position that works as if the knife had no choil. I’m eager to see the new “cliff jumper”, as I like the idea of the rock jumper design but I want a bigger knife. I’ve personally gone to larger knives except for when I specifically want a small one. So pairing the Urban with the Millie at work for example, so I have a “friendly” knife vs. a “scary” knife.

[Gtscotty]

I prefer the choil sized and located the way it is, it's excellent for fine blade control. I don't really think that replacing the choil with more handle would "fix" anything that needs fixing. More blade length isn't necessarily value added, and I can't think of anything that I've cut with one of my Natives where an extra 0.4" would have made any difference.

Those that want more blade have many options. Disassembling elk, deer, antelope, etc is a chore where I prefer a little more blade, but I'd never use the Native for that when many other better tools for the specific task exist, namely 3.5"-4.5" fixed blades. I'm not saying that no one ever needs bigger blades, just that most of the time I don't, and when I do, I surely wouldn't grab my Native, even if it had an extra 0.4" of blade (especially at the expense of the excellent choil).

While I support Docs idea and think a choil-less, handle-forward Native would be a better Native, of course I think it should be just an addition or even a totally different model! The current Native 5 should not be taken away from those who find it perfect as it is! Actually, I liked my Native 5 LW a lot too, and mainly sold it cause the Chaparral did most things even better in a more compact size but still almost the same amount of cutting edge.

That being said:

1.) I am still not sure why you think the Native choil makes for better "fine blade control" than a handle that places the hand exactly as close to the handle as a choil? AND offers more "meat" beneath the index finger than just the metal of the choil?
Actually, the particular choil of the Native 5 for me does feel great when just holding the knife or doing light cutting. As soon as I do harder cutting or whittling though, the choil leads to the knife "turning" and "shifting" in my hand (this certainly not be true for all hand/finger sizes and is not true for me either with choils in other knives. The Chap for example remains really solid in my hand with the finger in the choil, even if I really bare down on it)

2.) A handle forward Native would place your hand as close to the edge as a choil would plus offer more cutting edge.
Now you say (quote) "I can't think of anything that I've cut with one of my Natives where an extra 0.4" would have made any difference" I certainly believe you (!), but it still surprises me a bit: In my regular "EDC life" there are many tasks where a longer edge comes in handy: Cutting stuff with larger diameter, cutting food, but first and foremost: Even if I CAN cut stuff with a short edge, a longer is more efficient in other aspects: One drawing motion instead of several back and force motions; Blade will stay sharp longer; PARTS of the blade will more likely still be sharp after a long day of cutting; .and so on.
And keep in mind: A handle forward Native would NOT have a longer BLADE, but just a longer EDGE...

A good upper and lower choil design supports a thumb forward and index finger pad forward grip that really let's you choke up on the blade and improve tip and edge control. Spyderco makes many knives that support this grip, but it's apparent that a design intent of the native and to a lesser extent Manix 2 was to safely push your index finger pad further out on the blade to help get that increased control. Having more handle on the blade end isn't as conducive to fine control as actual contact with the blade steel through aggressive jumping, not to mention the other added benefit (as pointed out by another poster) of the foil folding into the handle and not increasing the closed length, whereas more handle is more closed length.

Longer blades will certainly retain sharp portions longer than shorter blades, all things being equal.... But that's why I prefer top end steels, I get plenty of working time on an edge with the fine control of a smaller blade and generous choil design, best of both worlds to me.

Pics below to illustrate the grip benefits of choils. I like all of these knives, but for fine cutting the Native and Manix 2 win out in their respective size classes





VS

[Doc Dan]

There is one thing with back-lock knives and finger choils. The finger choil makes it much easier to close the knife without accidentally cutting yourself....

Added to my post above, since I happen to have made the three vids of three alternative, safe closing methods for a backlock (one with fingers all the time out of the blade path): See vids below (one time shown very slow, two times regular speed)
People just refuse to look into this methods, or believe in the myth that the only way to close a backlock one handed would be to let the choil drop on the forefinger (but again: With Sals handle forward design even THIS method works with choil-less knives perfectly fine too!!)

https://streamable.com/j7fjd

https://streamable.com/bhhzs

https://streamable.com/myzlt

I use #3, or a variant thereof. The reason I do not close a backlock by letting the blade fall on my finger is because things become habit and if I close a non-Spyderco that way at some point, I would get cut. So, I use one method that is safe no matter what.

[Nate]

Has there been any talk of a choiless ‘lil Shaman? Not sure if/how that design would work with a back lock though.

[Evil D]

Has there been any talk of a choiless ‘lil Shaman? Not sure if/how that design would work with a back lock though.

Not. "Lil" version but Sal did mention a design for a choiless Shaman.

[Woodpuppy]

The Shaman is my first rampless Spyderco. I have been skeptical about the design for some time. With the crucarta version I decided to try to get one; missed it, but managed to acquire a Z-carta version. My rationale was if I liked this model, this was THE version to have for my tastes, and if I didn’t like it it should hold its value to sell. Let’s just say I’m sold on the model, and interested in a Native.

Aside from the Military, this rampless design (including Native and Chief, and likely others like the Siren and Goddard designs) is the only format that makes good sense to me when using the choil. Gtscotty’s pics above illustrate to me the cramped nature of trying to use the choil and thumb ramp at the same time. I can credit Vivi for making me think about that some time back, part of the reason I began considering the Shaman.

Here is how I’d use the choil on the Shaman. You can see that the spine jimping could go much further forward to support a bear-down grip:




Here is a pinch grip that lets you really choke up on it, such as for picking splinters or something needing finer motor control:




This is how I’d hold the knife if it had a ramp:



And here’s how it works so well with the Millie:




All that to say, I think the Native 5 may be perfect as is. It uses the choil to get you a full handed grip and is a useful EDC blade length, and because of the rampless blade design lets you place your thumb along the spine where it fits best. Holding the Millie as shown gives you the best puncturing hold; holding the Shaman as shown in my first pic gives you the best bear-down grip I think.

One downfall of the Shaman design (and possibly the Native?) is the height of the knife. It doesn’t work for me well in a reverse carving hold, or like peeling an apple. It’s just too big. The Millie works fine. The PM2/Para3 works OK but the Millie’s better. I mean, the Millie’s really a fantastic knife. I wish more folks could get one in hand and try it out long enough to acclimate to the longer blade. It’s such a versatile tool.

Anyway, I’m really enjoying exploring these two _awesome_ :spyder: knives side by side :cool:

[Wartstein]

....
All that to say, I think the Native 5 may be perfect as is. It uses the choil to get you a full handed grip and is a useful EDC blade length, .......

The Native may be perfect as it is for many (and it is a cool knife indeed!), but I think the point of this thread is exactly that it does NOT (need to) use the choil to get a full handed grip:

The Native handle would be long enough already for a full handed grip even for really large hands, if it would NOT have a choil, but make use of the full length of the (FRN/G10) handle instead.
The choil actually forces a bit larger hands to use it, plus makes the handle behind the choil too short, plus reduces the cutting edge - somehow a "loose-loose-loose" situation.

What you say imho is true for SMALLER knives than the Native (Chaparral, DFly) - here a choil is great, cause the overall handlelength would be too short for a four finger grip. This is not true for the Native.

And in larger knifes as the Native choils can be nice again, since here the handle BEHIND the choil remains still long enough, so two four finger grip options are offered.
Native, Para 3... imho are the sizerange where a choil makes the least sense, but it does both in even smaller and larger knives than the Native.

[skeeg11]

There is one thing with back-lock knives and finger choils. The finger choil makes it much easier to close the knife without accidentally cutting yourself. Look at the SpyOpera. Super cute little knife with a very smooth back-lock. Several reviewers managed to cut themselves when getting to know the knife. Not a deal breaker, but it is there.

That's why God gave us fingernails. :p Seriously tho, I always drop the blade of a lock back on my forefinger nail instead of any fleshy part of my forefinger. Such a small and minor safety adjustment/habit. :)

[austrian_spyder_fan]

Hi Doc,

Funny you should mention that. I have a design that is very similar to what you are suggesting, but has a larger hole and bit of a hump. I designed it a while ago along with the Rock Jumper. I'm waiting for a slot in Golden to make it. Drawn in 2018.

sal

He Sal,

pretty cool news.
Would you like to tell us more details?

ASF

[sal]

Has there been any talk of a choiless ‘lil Shaman? Not sure if/how that design would work with a back lock though.

Not. "Lil" version but Sal did mention a design for a choiless Shaman.

Hi DAvid,

I do have Shaman variations that Eric has to fit into the queue n Golden. One of them is choil-less.

Hi ASF,

Can't say too much at this time. I'm currently refining the design.

sal