In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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araneae
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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby araneae » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:22 pm

You can't always get what you want. But did you know you can easily get a non-painted Delica clip?
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
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Just got: Zcarta Shaman

The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby ugaarguy » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:40 pm

Chapp wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:58 pm
It's not really a matter of what I personally want. Everyone in this forum know what I would like to see coming back. It's just that everytime someone ask Spyderco for something very obvious, it's always met with the same answers : other priorities, pipeline is full or just weird stubborness (Delica non-painted clip srsly ?).

Like, I remember vividly I suggested Spyderco to make a Pm2 with a different blade, because I and all the coworkers I have find the PM2 grind to be too delicate for what we do (while everything else is perfect for us. The PM2 is a popular knife in my job). We don't use our knives sitting at desk cutting letters, we need a sturdier blade with a Pm2 handle. By mail, I suggested something close to a Nirvana blade, which I still think about each time I use a Pm2. It was dismissed entirely, which in itself isn't a problem, it's not my company, I'm just one random guy.

Two years later come BladeHQ and suddenly, a PM2 with a sturdiest blade is possible. Not because the timing is right or because the idea makes more sens now, but because they have the clout and the means to make something very obvious happens. I mean, a PM2 with a sturdier blade is bound to kill it in popularity (and it did, it's probably the sprint run I've seen flying the fastest). Mind you it was a tanto, imagine a more conventional blade shape...

To add salt into the injury, it's a sprint run and as europeans, we had next to no chances to get one.


Now it's a wharncliff Pm2. Sure, collectors are happy I guess.

It's frustrating overall when good - obvious - idea aren't enough. I mean, let's get back to the Delica non-painted or wire clip. Who do you need to be to make it happens ? I've seen a bunch of popular youtube guys asking for it and even them, with 100k suscribers aren't enough. Why ?

It isn't a secret the knife world is the best at not giving people what they want. I mean, how many years before we finally got a Delica in s30v, which was probably the most obvious thing in the world. Of course it's pink and a sprint run, but still. For how long are we going to scrape the paint of our Delica clip ?
No, it wasn't obviously going to be a success. Tantos have been poor sellers for Spyderco. Blade HQ took the financial risk and luckily for them and Spyderco it's sold well. It's also not a sprint. It's an exclusive that BHQ has ordered at least 3 runs of, so it's not a one and done. I'm sorry that it's hard for you to get in Europe. If you need a sturdier blade than the stock PM2, what about a Shaman? I know it's not the same, but it's a somewhat similar knife. What about the Caribbean Sheepsfoot? What about the Superleaf that was discontinued years ago - that was a beast of a comp lock knife. What about the ATR and ATR 2 that are both discontinued, despite having very sturdy tips. Other than the Shaman, big, beefy knives haven't sold well for Spyderco. We'll see how long the PM2 tanto remains popular.

As for the S30V Delica, it's made in Japan. Sal has said on here that for many years their Japanese makers only wanted to work with Japanese made steels. Now that they're willing to work with steels from other countries, it's opened up some possibilities. But it's not like S30V is a massive performance improvement over VG-10. LC200N in plain edge offers a much more significant advantage in edge retention over H1 PE on a Salt knife. Non-painted Delica clip? See this link - https://www.spyderco.com/service-suppor ... ent-clips/ - and send Spyderco an email. Or order a titanium clip in whatever style floats your boat from MXG Gear or Lynch Northwest. Wire clip on a Delica? That would require an entirely new mold, and it would eliminate all the standard three screw clips people already have. The Chaparral is pretty darn close.

I think that a Sage 2 with an LC200N blade and ceramic ball detent to make it a Salt knife is the obvious thing to do to compliment the SpydieChef and compete with The Drift by Quietcarry. In the mean time, I'm pretty darn happy with my Native 5 Salt. I think moving the Salt Saver to the Native 5 Salt frame is the obvious way to save money to transition that model to a three screw clip instead of the barrel screw clip, and get the blade just under 3" vs. the just over 3" blade it has now that makes it illegal in many places. Maybe Spyderco will do it. Maybe they wont. Maybe they have reasons to not do it.

Yeah, it's frustrating, but Spyderco makes more models and variants than any other knife maker I can think of. And they have made many improvements that have been suggested here. Don't lose hope.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby archangel » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:05 am

Chapp wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:58 pm
To add salt into the injury, it's a sprint run and as europeans, we had next to no chances to get one.

Hmmm... I've had my share of sprints, and I'm from Germany. In fact I'd say that all the sprints I ever wanted, I did get - at least where I had the opportunity cause my bank account allowed it. If you set an alarm and already log in to the shop to drop the sprint or exclusive that you want, or care to spend hours online to try your luck whenever a new drop has been published here (like recently/currently with the Shaman or Native Chief), you have a fair chance even if you're in Europe. Unless you are too afraid to order in the US - but that is then YOUR problem.

You can't expect seriously that an idea of one individual, even of a group of people from outside the industry, weighs as much as the interest of another company from INSIDE that same industry. Or do you?

Although when you think about it, this forum here is loaded with ideas that have been made up by individuals not paid by Spyderco OR paying Spyderco to realize their project, put to an open public discussion, and echoed positively by a mass of people, so that in the end it was implemented by Spyderco. You just have to have a very good idea, many supporters, and leave it up to the professionals at Spyderco, who have infinitely more business insight than even the biggest lay knife nuts, to weigh whether or not you've got a business case. After all, it's their company. It's a business. It has got to sell.
Michael
40 Spydies, 39 different models, 37 different steels

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Chapp
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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby Chapp » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:20 am

ugaarguy wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:40 pm
No, it wasn't obviously going to be a success. Tantos have been poor sellers for Spyderco. Blade HQ took the financial risk and luckily for them and Spyderco it's sold well. It's also not a sprint. It's an exclusive that BHQ has ordered at least 3 runs of, so it's not a one and done. I'm sorry that it's hard for you to get in Europe. If you need a sturdier blade than the stock PM2, what about a Shaman? I know it's not the same, but it's a somewhat similar knife. What about the Caribbean Sheepsfoot? What about the Superleaf that was discontinued years ago - that was a beast of a comp lock knife. What about the ATR and ATR 2 that are both discontinued, despite having very sturdy tips. Other than the Shaman, big, beefy knives haven't sold well for Spyderco. We'll see how long the PM2 tanto remains popular.

As for the S30V Delica, it's made in Japan. Sal has said on here that for many years their Japanese makers only wanted to work with Japanese made steels. Now that they're willing to work with steels from other countries, it's opened up some possibilities. But it's not like S30V is a massive performance improvement over VG-10. LC200N in plain edge offers a much more significant advantage in edge retention over H1 PE on a Salt knife. Non-painted Delica clip? See this link - https://www.spyderco.com/service-suppor ... ent-clips/ - and send Spyderco an email. Or order a titanium clip in whatever style floats your boat from MXG Gear or Lynch Northwest. Wire clip on a Delica? That would require an entirely new mold, and it would eliminate all the standard three screw clips people already have. The Chaparral is pretty darn close.

I think that a Sage 2 with an LC200N blade and ceramic ball detent to make it a Salt knife is the obvious thing to do to compliment the SpydieChef and compete with The Drift by Quietcarry. In the mean time, I'm pretty darn happy with my Native 5 Salt. I think moving the Salt Saver to the Native 5 Salt frame is the obvious way to save money to transition that model to a three screw clip instead of the barrel screw clip, and get the blade just under 3" vs. the just over 3" blade it has now that makes it illegal in many places. Maybe Spyderco will do it. Maybe they wont. Maybe they have reasons to not do it.

Yeah, it's frustrating, but Spyderco makes more models and variants than any other knife maker I can think of. And they have made many improvements that have been suggested here. Don't lose hope.
I know about Casey Lynch, his business isn't a well-kept secret. I ordered a replacement clip for my Delica and paid 35$ just for the shipping, for a 85$ knife, without even factoring the price of the clip itself. I won't even mention the taxes I pay in my country over international stuff, your head might turn. That's the alternative you and other recommend, really ? It's not Lynch's fault, but that's what it is to be an European enthusiast, and that's why I always have to remind some here that the world is bigger than the US. I'm not living in deep Africa or in a communist country mind you, I live in a very rich, very developed country. I'm also a bit tired to see people suggesting the same thing over and over, each time a pocket clip is mentioned on those forums. It doesn't work outside of the US, unless you're willing to pay a hefty price over it.

The Delica 4 would need a new mold for a wire-clip ? Cool, we can stay on the Delica 4th revision for another 15 years when all others manufacturers are making progresses and improving their games. I mean, did you see Sog last line of products ? From zero to hero and they keep improving.

Thanks for the rest of your suggestions, but I'm not interested in them. There are very good reasons I'm pushing for the Delica or the PM2 as hard as I do. I really love the intent behind their design and they resonate well with me (and a bunch of others it seems). My PM2 is my work knife and the Delica is my back up for years now. I'm not that much of a collector. I'm just highly disappointed small obvious adjustments aren't being made. That's what it means to be passionate about a design in particular. Suggesting a Shaman over a PM2, or a Chapparal over a Delica is missing my point and my passion entirely, even borderline dismissive I'd say.

I always read Sal opinions, always. Before participating on the forum, I've spent years reading past discussions. I always try to understand why a Spyderco design is the way it is. I know why Spyderco isn't making a compression lock for the Delica 4 for example. But sometimes, let's be honest here, there are just no reasons other than "it sells, it's been like that for years", which is starting to get a bit disappointing.
No, it wasn't obviously going to be a success. Tantos have been poor sellers for Spyderco. Blade HQ took the financial risk and luckily for them and Spyderco it's sold well.
Of course it was obvious. We're not speaking about putting a tanto blade on a Dragonfly or on a weird design like the Spyderco Lum. We're speaking about correcting one of the most common pet-peeve about the PM2 for a lot of owners : its delicate blade design. Of course, if we just ask on this forum, people will claim the knife is perfect (as always, we became an echo-chamber over the years). Outside of it, it's a different story. Offering a PM2 with a sturdier blade is a very obvious thing and it's no surprise it became a popular thing very quick. It's just unfortunate you must have the clout and the means to make it a reality. Like I said before, good ideas aren't enough and that's where my problem lies.

I can make you another Nostradamus prediction : put a sort of (sort of) Spyderco Nirvana blade on a PM2 handle and you'll have one of the most popular knife ever made. Will it happen ? I'll be glad to make it happen and work with Spyderco on it or just explain why people working in my conditions would need such a knife, but I'm just a random guy and I doubt it will ever happen.
If someone lives in Europe and want to send me a Slysz Bowie just so I can hold it in my hands again ==> PM (I'll send it back the day after, with warranty and all).

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Oloung1
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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby Oloung1 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:11 am

Chapp wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:20 am
I ordered a replacement clip for my Delica and paid 35$ just for the shipping, for a 85$ knife, without even factoring the price of the clip itself. I won't even mention the taxes I pay in my country over international stuff, your head might turn. That's the alternative you and other recommend, really ? It's not Lynch's fault, but that's what it is to be an European enthusiast, and that's why I always have to remind some here that the world is bigger than the US. I'm not living in deep Africa or in a communist country mind you, I live in a very rich, very developed country. I'm also a bit tired to see people suggesting the same thing over and over, each time a pocket clip is mentioned on those forums. It doesn't work outside of the US, unless you're willing to pay a hefty price over it.

The Delica 4 would need a new mold for a wire-clip ? Cool, we can stay on the Delica 4th revision for another 15 years when all others manufacturers are making progresses and improving their games. I mean, did you see Sog last line of products ? From zero to hero and they keep improving.

Thanks for the rest of your suggestions, but I'm not interested in them. There are very good reasons I'm pushing for the Delica or the PM2 as hard as I do. I really love the intent behind their design and they resonate well with me (and a bunch of others it seems). My PM2 is my work knife and the Delica is my back up for years now. I'm not that much of a collector. I'm just highly disappointed small obvious adjustments aren't being made. That's what it means to be passionate about a design in particular. Suggesting a Shaman over a PM2, or a Chapparal over a Delica is missing my point and my passion entirely, even borderline dismissive I'd say.

I always read Sal opinions, always. Before participating on the forum, I've spent years reading past discussions. I always try to understand why a Spyderco design is the way it is. I know why Spyderco isn't making a compression lock for the Delica 4 for example. But sometimes, let's be honest here, there are just no reasons other than "it sells, it's been like that for years", which is starting to get a bit disappointing.

Of course it was obvious. We're not speaking about putting a tanto blade on a Dragonfly or on a weird design like the Spyderco Lum. We're speaking about correcting one of the most common pet-peeve about the PM2 for a lot of owners : its delicate blade design. Of course, if we just ask on this forum, people will claim the knife is perfect (as always, we became an echo-chamber over the years). Outside of it, it's a different story. Offering a PM2 with a sturdier blade is a very obvious thing and it's no surprise it became a popular thing very quick. It's just unfortunate you must have the clout and the means to make it a reality. Like I said before, good ideas aren't enough and that's where my problem lies.

I can make you another Nostradamus prediction : put a sort of (sort of) Spyderco Nirvana blade on a PM2 handle and you'll have one of the most popular knife ever made. Will it happen ? I'll be glad to make it happen and work with Spyderco on it or just explain why people working in my conditions would need such a knife, but I'm just a random guy and I doubt it will ever happen.
In my opinion what you feel on sprints/exclusives, is akin to what we feel stateside on variants and limited edition automobiles, even Canada have improved option packs than the same type vehicles on cars not manufactured mainland. What does it take to get a long roof based, high performance RWD or AWD import under $100k here (read: wagon/estate/avant/shooting brake)? Not going to happen here, our enthusiast base is too small, too scattered. How many decades did it take "just" to get the RS6?!? I kinda understand where you are coming from.

For a more robust tip, have you considered bladeops wave blade? I read your Dragonfly analogy but I have a some PM2s, Delica4s and an Endura4 sabre grind. My Endura 4 blade has the thickest tip among the three. Maybe the geometry of the blade ops is closer to the Endura than PM2, with a mix of both profiles (probably best answered by bladeops)? I prefer my Delica sabre over my Endura sabre, just because it's a bit thinner stock.

For another perspective of Spyderco's model on variant approvals, don't know if you had seen the video from Cl1ff's post yet, Eric covers some of your concerns: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88964&sid=42ff7a07c ... 1a4f1373c7

Fabricators like Lynch and xxxadrenalinexxx cater to an ultra niche set of the knife commerce world and their shipping charges are going to be felt anywhere outside of mainland. There are far less expensive alternatives for both types of products but the design, quality and finish is just not the same.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby Danke » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:29 am

TazKristi wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:25 pm
Danke wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:47 am
You probably need to be in the circle of trust before asking. But they do unique collaborations like this. This was not through a typical online knife store.
Danke,
I wouldn't say that we have a circle of trust. If we do, it's the trust that our customers (you) give us. The Abel Reels Exclusive was not the first of its kind - the end product was unique, absolutely, but the partnership was not.

Kristi
My observation is that I think it would take more legwork to get an exclusive than a stranger showing up and the factory with a dump truck full of money and saying "make me a tanto too".

Because of the way Spyderco relates to their dealers and customers I would really suspect you'd look at what impact that request would have on other customers. If that rich guy begging for a knife run said "I know Blade HQ has an exclusive on the blade shape but I will pay you 50% more than they did to get you to break that" I can guess what the answer would be.

You might put it nicely like "oh we're too busy today to make any more knives" but you'd send him on his way.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby MotoBro » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:04 pm

Danke wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:29 am
TazKristi wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:25 pm
Danke wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:47 am
You probably need to be in the circle of trust before asking. But they do unique collaborations like this. This was not through a typical online knife store.
Danke,
I wouldn't say that we have a circle of trust. If we do, it's the trust that our customers (you) give us. The Abel Reels Exclusive was not the first of its kind - the end product was unique, absolutely, but the partnership was not.

Kristi
My observation is that I think it would take more legwork to get an exclusive than a stranger showing up and the factory with a dump truck full of money and saying "make me a tanto too".

Because of the way Spyderco relates to their dealers and customers I would really suspect you'd look at what impact that request would have on other customers. If that rich guy begging for a knife run said "I know Blade HQ has an exclusive on the blade shape but I will pay you 50% more than they did to get you to break that" I can guess what the answer would be.

You might put it nicely like "oh we're too busy today to make any more knives" but you'd send him on his way.
A knife enthusiast with a dump truck of money to blow would just go to a custom knife maker and have them build exactly what they want. It would be expensive but still much cheaper than trying to get a large knife manufacturer to create an exclusive for them.

Now I do have somewhat of a solution to the sprint/exclusive issue... but I doubt it will ever happen. Spyderco could start a “custom shop”. Make the most popular models available in a few different steels & G-10/FRN colors, maybe even different blade shapes. Want a PM2 Tanto in 20CV with red G-10? Make one in the custom shop. Of course it would be more expensive than getting a regular production model but the people who can afford a custom knife could get almost exactly what they want without having to rush to buy sprints/exclusives when they drop or buy them secondhand.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby araneae » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:33 pm

MotoBro wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:04 pm
Danke wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:29 am
TazKristi wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:25 pm
Danke wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:47 am
You probably need to be in the circle of trust before asking. But they do unique collaborations like this. This was not through a typical online knife store.
Danke,
I wouldn't say that we have a circle of trust. If we do, it's the trust that our customers (you) give us. The Abel Reels Exclusive was not the first of its kind - the end product was unique, absolutely, but the partnership was not.

Kristi
My observation is that I think it would take more legwork to get an exclusive than a stranger showing up and the factory with a dump truck full of money and saying "make me a tanto too".

Because of the way Spyderco relates to their dealers and customers I would really suspect you'd look at what impact that request would have on other customers. If that rich guy begging for a knife run said "I know Blade HQ has an exclusive on the blade shape but I will pay you 50% more than they did to get you to break that" I can guess what the answer would be.

You might put it nicely like "oh we're too busy today to make any more knives" but you'd send him on his way.
A knife enthusiast with a dump truck of money to blow would just go to a custom knife maker and have them build exactly what they want. It would be expensive but still much cheaper than trying to get a large knife manufacturer to create an exclusive for them.

Now I do have somewhat of a solution to the sprint/exclusive issue... but I doubt it will ever happen. Spyderco could start a “custom shop”. Make the most popular models available in a few different steels & G-10/FRN colors, maybe even different blade shapes. Want a PM2 Tanto in 20CV with red G-10? Make one in the custom shop. Of course it would be more expensive than getting a regular production model but the people who can afford a custom knife could get almost exactly what they want without having to rush to buy sprints/exclusives when they drop or buy them secondhand.
You're new here, but the custom shop idea gets brought up every other month or so. Not happening at this time, per Sal.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick

Just got: Zcarta Shaman

The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal

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Chapp
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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby Chapp » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:45 pm

archangel wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:05 am
Chapp wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:58 pm
To add salt into the injury, it's a sprint run and as europeans, we had next to no chances to get one.

Hmmm... I've had my share of sprints, and I'm from Germany. In fact I'd say that all the sprints I ever wanted, I did get - at least where I had the opportunity cause my bank account allowed it. If you set an alarm and already log in to the shop to drop the sprint or exclusive that you want, or care to spend hours online to try your luck whenever a new drop has been published here (like recently/currently with the Shaman or Native Chief), you have a fair chance even if you're in Europe. Unless you are too afraid to order in the US - but that is then YOUR problem.

You can't expect seriously that an idea of one individual, even of a group of people from outside the industry, weighs as much as the interest of another company from INSIDE that same industry. Or do you?

Although when you think about it, this forum here is loaded with ideas that have been made up by individuals not paid by Spyderco OR paying Spyderco to realize their project, put to an open public discussion, and echoed positively by a mass of people, so that in the end it was implemented by Spyderco. You just have to have a very good idea, many supporters, and leave it up to the professionals at Spyderco, who have infinitely more business insight than even the biggest lay knife nuts, to weigh whether or not you've got a business case. After all, it's their company. It's a business. It has got to sell.
My sister-in-law work for Valve (the company behind the largest PC gaming online store), quite higher-up. You can send a good idea to Valve through mail and if it makes sens, they'll look very hard into it, make test and come back to you with detailed reasons of how they can implement it or with the reasons why they can't. If the idea is good, it's enough for them, regardless of who you are.

My best friend work for them too, for more than a decade. Each time I hear about the company, I understand more and more why they're such a successful company and why Gabe Newell is probably one of the best CEO out there.

Even Youtube premium called me back one day to discuss about a suggestion I made. One hour phone call and now the idea is implemented.

Different industry, but same goal in the end, make the best product they can, while making money out of it. So yes, if a multi-billion dollars company like Valve listen to random to that degree, why shouldn't I expect Spyderco to do the same ? You're probably one of those people who draw a thick line between "insiders" and "common folks". I don't. To me good ideas are what drive the world forward, not your premium status as a group or an individual.
archangel wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:05 am
You just have to have a very good idea, many supporters, and leave it up to the professionals at Spyderco, who have infinitely more business insight than even the biggest lay knife nuts


Yeah, so just like I said, good ideas from your customers aren't enough, which is exactly my problem. From all the industry I'm interested in, I've yet to see another one that retain so much obvious stuff from their customers. I mean, seriously, isn't it time to move on from painted clip for example ? For real ? Or do you need to have 500k followers on youtube and a big online store to make yourself heard ?

About companies being that insightful, I don't know. Hogue is making a better Griptilian than Benchmade for example. It's never good to worship companies leadership to that degree. Spyderco have made very good knives and their own fair share of duds over the years.
If someone lives in Europe and want to send me a Slysz Bowie just so I can hold it in my hands again ==> PM (I'll send it back the day after, with warranty and all).

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby ugaarguy » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:16 pm

Chapp wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:20 am
I know about Casey Lynch, his business isn't a well-kept secret. I ordered a replacement clip for my Delica and paid 35$ just for the shipping, for a 85$ knife, without even factoring the price of the clip itself. I won't even mention the taxes I pay in my country over international stuff, your head might turn. That's the alternative you and other recommend, really ? It's not Lynch's fault, but that's what it is to be an European enthusiast, and that's why I always have to remind some here that the world is bigger than the US. I'm not living in deep Africa or in a communist country mind you, I live in a very rich, very developed country. I'm also a bit tired to see people suggesting the same thing over and over, each time a pocket clip is mentioned on those forums. It doesn't work outside of the US, unless you're willing to pay a hefty price over it.
You wanted a non-painted clip for your Delica. I simply offered alternatives. I also suggested that you email Spyderco to buy a mass produced, stamped steel clip from them. I'm aware that international shipping is expensive. I'm aware that taxes and tariffs are very high on imported goods in many European countries. Those factors are beyond my control. Is your country within the EU? If so, and correct me if I'm wrong, but do the member nations not have some free trade agreement for goods originating in the EU, correct? That seems like a business opportunity for someone to make custom pocket clips within the EU like Lynch and MXG do here in the US. I'm sure you're aware of this, but the clips from the Byrd back locks also fit the Delica. Would it be less expensive to buy a Byrd knife that's already been imported to your country (or a tax friendly neighboring country) to swap the clips on? That would get you a clip that isn't painted, and then you could put your painted clip on the Byrd to have as beater. I'm also fairly certain that a few of the Ganzo back locks have clips that will fit the Delica. Might that be another less expensive source for a donor clip? Not trying to be dismissive, just trying to help you get what you want as cost effectively as possible.
Chapp wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:20 am
The Delica 4 would need a new mold for a wire-clip ? Cool, we can stay on the Delica 4th revision for another 15 years when all others manufacturers are making progresses and improving their games. I mean, did you see Sog last line of products ? From zero to hero and they keep improving.
I think that Spyderco should move all their back locks to liner-less handles like they have on the Native 5. It eliminates liners trapping moisture, it reduces cost once the molds are paid for, it adds the thread inserts that hold the clip more securely, and lets the company use a single mold for both the regular and Salt versions of the same knife. I've suggested this. Sal's reply was that many customers still want steel liners. I think it's a bit silly since earlier generations of the Delica and Endura didn't have steel liners, but I have weird tastes, as you're already aware. I'm frustrated that Spyderco is still using 8Cr13 blades in their value line folders, when CRKT and other companies are making comparable folders with D2 blades and selling them for the same price.

Chapp wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:20 am
Thanks for the rest of your suggestions, but I'm not interested in them. There are very good reasons I'm pushing for the Delica or the PM2 as hard as I do. I really love the intent behind their design and they resonate well with me (and a bunch of others it seems). My PM2 is my work knife and the Delica is my back up for years now. I'm not that much of a collector. I'm just highly disappointed small obvious adjustments aren't being made. That's what it means to be passionate about a design in particular. Suggesting a Shaman over a PM2, or a Chapparal over a Delica is missing my point and my passion entirely, even borderline dismissive I'd say.

I always read Sal opinions, always. Before participating on the forum, I've spent years reading past discussions. I always try to understand why a Spyderco design is the way it is. I know why Spyderco isn't making a compression lock for the Delica 4 for example. But sometimes, let's be honest here, there are just no reasons other than "it sells, it's been like that for years", which is starting to get a bit disappointing.
I'm not trying to be dismissive at all, and I'm sorry you took it that way. I was just trying to offer alternatives. Do you think that you've also been rude and dismissive when folks here have genuinely tried to help you?

Chapp wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:20 am
Of course it was obvious. We're not speaking about putting a tanto blade on a Dragonfly or on a weird design like the Spyderco Lum. We're speaking about correcting one of the most common pet-peeve about the PM2 for a lot of owners : its delicate blade design. Of course, if we just ask on this forum, people will claim the knife is perfect (as always, we became an echo-chamber over the years). Outside of it, it's a different story. Offering a PM2 with a sturdier blade is a very obvious thing and it's no surprise it became a popular thing very quick. It's just unfortunate you must have the clout and the means to make it a reality. Like I said before, good ideas aren't enough and that's where my problem lies.

I can make you another Nostradamus prediction : put a sort of (sort of) Spyderco Nirvana blade on a PM2 handle and you'll have one of the most popular knife ever made. Will it happen ? I'll be glad to make it happen and work with Spyderco on it or just explain why people working in my conditions would need such a knife, but I'm just a random guy and I doubt it will ever happen.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I've seen plenty of debate going both ways on the tip strength on the PM2. I do agree with you that a Nirvana or similar clip point blade with a stronger tip would a very worthwhile option on a knife as popular as the PM2.
Last edited by ugaarguy on Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby SRT392HEMI » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:09 pm

[/quote]
...the custom shop idea gets brought up every other month or so. Not happening at this time, per Sal.
[/quote]

Probably a good thing, a Spyderco custom shop would likely get me divorced.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby Sharp Guy » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:40 pm

It's always such a pleasure when someone comes on Spyderco's own forum and starts ranting on and on about how they should run THEIR business :rolleyes: Polite suggestions are one thing, but going on and on about a painted pocket clip is just silly?
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most!

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Danke
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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby Danke » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:26 pm

MotoBro wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:04 pm
Danke wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:29 am
TazKristi wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:25 pm
Danke wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:47 am
You probably need to be in the circle of trust before asking. But they do unique collaborations like this. This was not through a typical online knife store.
Danke,
I wouldn't say that we have a circle of trust. If we do, it's the trust that our customers (you) give us. The Abel Reels Exclusive was not the first of its kind - the end product was unique, absolutely, but the partnership was not.

Kristi
My observation is that I think it would take more legwork to get an exclusive than a stranger showing up and the factory with a dump truck full of money and saying "make me a tanto too".

Because of the way Spyderco relates to their dealers and customers I would really suspect you'd look at what impact that request would have on other customers. If that rich guy begging for a knife run said "I know Blade HQ has an exclusive on the blade shape but I will pay you 50% more than they did to get you to break that" I can guess what the answer would be.

You might put it nicely like "oh we're too busy today to make any more knives" but you'd send him on his way.
A knife enthusiast with a dump truck of money to blow would just go to a custom knife maker and have them build exactly what they want. It would be expensive but still much cheaper than trying to get a large knife manufacturer to create an exclusive for them.

Now I do have somewhat of a solution to the sprint/exclusive issue... but I doubt it will ever happen. Spyderco could start a “custom shop”. Make the most popular models available in a few different steels & G-10/FRN colors, maybe even different blade shapes. Want a PM2 Tanto in 20CV with red G-10? Make one in the custom shop. Of course it would be more expensive than getting a regular production model but the people who can afford a custom knife could get almost exactly what they want without having to rush to buy sprints/exclusives when they drop or buy them secondhand.
Yeah or they could just go to Arizona Custom Knives and get one from them. Bunch of desirable PM2s there. You only need half a dumptruck of money there.

What Spyderco should really do is hold a meet up at some international central location like Amsterdam for example and invite any who wants to go to attend. Then at the "meet" they could show examples of knives in in development and get real world feedback and market research.

Fingers crossed!

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby TenGrainBread » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:41 pm

Random thoughts related to this thread:

1. Don't begin your post with "This has nothing to do with my personal desires" and then list off a bunch of personal desires and why Spyderco has failed to satisfy them. Unless you have some hard market research data on why it would be a good idea to implement your proposals, you shouldn't be surprised or frustrated if a company ignores you. You can't just claim your proposal would be "the most popular knife in the world" and then expect Spyderco to move on it. I do admire your passion, but it's not realistic.

2. Spyderco is a production knife company. They are not a custom shop. They are not there to build your custom vision. Like Kristi said, they take their designs, including the collaborations and exclusives, very seriously and put a lot of work into the aesthetics and functionality. In my opinion it would dilute the brand to have a build-your-own feature because it takes Spyderco's intentional design language and engineering out of the picture.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby spoonrobot » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:27 pm

Chapp wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:45 pm
archangel wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:05 am
Chapp wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:58 pm
To add salt into the injury, it's a sprint run and as europeans, we had next to no chances to get one.

Hmmm... I've had my share of sprints, and I'm from Germany. In fact I'd say that all the sprints I ever wanted, I did get - at least where I had the opportunity cause my bank account allowed it. If you set an alarm and already log in to the shop to drop the sprint or exclusive that you want, or care to spend hours online to try your luck whenever a new drop has been published here (like recently/currently with the Shaman or Native Chief), you have a fair chance even if you're in Europe. Unless you are too afraid to order in the US - but that is then YOUR problem.

You can't expect seriously that an idea of one individual, even of a group of people from outside the industry, weighs as much as the interest of another company from INSIDE that same industry. Or do you?

Although when you think about it, this forum here is loaded with ideas that have been made up by individuals not paid by Spyderco OR paying Spyderco to realize their project, put to an open public discussion, and echoed positively by a mass of people, so that in the end it was implemented by Spyderco. You just have to have a very good idea, many supporters, and leave it up to the professionals at Spyderco, who have infinitely more business insight than even the biggest lay knife nuts, to weigh whether or not you've got a business case. After all, it's their company. It's a business. It has got to sell.
My sister-in-law work for Valve (the company behind the largest PC gaming online store), quite higher-up. You can send a good idea to Valve through mail and if it makes sens, they'll look very hard into it, make test and come back to you with detailed reasons of how they can implement it or with the reasons why they can't. If the idea is good, it's enough for them, regardless of who you are.

My best friend work for them too, for more than a decade. Each time I hear about the company, I understand more and more why they're such a successful company and why Gabe Newell is probably one of the best CEO out there.

Even Youtube premium called me back one day to discuss about a suggestion I made. One hour phone call and now the idea is implemented.

Different industry, but same goal in the end, make the best product they can, while making money out of it. So yes, if a multi-billion dollars company like Valve listen to random to that degree, why shouldn't I expect Spyderco to do the same ? You're probably one of those people who draw a thick line between "insiders" and "common folks". I don't. To me good ideas are what drive the world forward, not your premium status as a group or an individual.
archangel wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:05 am
You just have to have a very good idea, many supporters, and leave it up to the professionals at Spyderco, who have infinitely more business insight than even the biggest lay knife nuts


Yeah, so just like I said, good ideas from your customers aren't enough, which is exactly my problem. From all the industry I'm interested in, I've yet to see another one that retain so much obvious stuff from their customers. I mean, seriously, isn't it time to move on from painted clip for example ? For real ? Or do you need to have 500k followers on youtube and a big online store to make yourself heard ?

About companies being that insightful, I don't know. Hogue is making a better Griptilian than Benchmade for example. It's never good to worship companies leadership to that degree. Spyderco have made very good knives and their own fair share of duds over the years.


I can’t believe any of this post. Ridiculous.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby sal » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:08 am

Hi Kristi,

Thanx much for your exceptional explanation, as I've come to expect from you.

Hi Rashman,

Welcome to our forum and thanx for the kind words.

sal

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby MotoBro » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:10 am

araneae wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:33 pm
MotoBro wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:04 pm
Danke wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:29 am
TazKristi wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:25 pm

Danke,
I wouldn't say that we have a circle of trust. If we do, it's the trust that our customers (you) give us. The Abel Reels Exclusive was not the first of its kind - the end product was unique, absolutely, but the partnership was not.

Kristi
My observation is that I think it would take more legwork to get an exclusive than a stranger showing up and the factory with a dump truck full of money and saying "make me a tanto too".

Because of the way Spyderco relates to their dealers and customers I would really suspect you'd look at what impact that request would have on other customers. If that rich guy begging for a knife run said "I know Blade HQ has an exclusive on the blade shape but I will pay you 50% more than they did to get you to break that" I can guess what the answer would be.

You might put it nicely like "oh we're too busy today to make any more knives" but you'd send him on his way.
A knife enthusiast with a dump truck of money to blow would just go to a custom knife maker and have them build exactly what they want. It would be expensive but still much cheaper than trying to get a large knife manufacturer to create an exclusive for them.

Now I do have somewhat of a solution to the sprint/exclusive issue... but I doubt it will ever happen. Spyderco could start a “custom shop”. Make the most popular models available in a few different steels & G-10/FRN colors, maybe even different blade shapes. Want a PM2 Tanto in 20CV with red G-10? Make one in the custom shop. Of course it would be more expensive than getting a regular production model but the people who can afford a custom knife could get almost exactly what they want without having to rush to buy sprints/exclusives when they drop or buy them secondhand.
You're new here, but the custom shop idea gets brought up every other month or so. Not happening at this time, per Sal.

Relax with gatekeeping. I made it clear I didn’t expect it to ever happen. But it would definitely curtail some of the demand for exclusives and sprints. People are always chasing their “grail knife” from their favorite manufacturer. Allowing people to customize their favorite model would at least satisfy some of those desires.

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby sal » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:31 am

Well, so much for the original question. Sorry we have so many frustrated customers.

Frankly, we've tried to solve many of these problems in the past and they've not worked out. We tried a distribution center in Europe more than once, both in Belgium and Netherlands. Not an inexpensive venture.

We made the tips sturdier tips on the Endura and Delica, and got and still get numerous complaints. Tantos have never done well for us. Actually this Tanto blade was designed by Eric, which in part helped its success. The Shaman was designed to be a heavy duty blade, and it' been well received.

For us complaints about price is always an issue, especially for European customers. We've not found a solution. We're always trying to improve clips and coatings. We try to listen to the requests of our customers and many come to fruition. It does seem that no matter what we do, or how much we do, there are complaints.

Eric's has talked about trying a custom shop. The knife-makers are willing. Covid has slowed that project.

If someone has a good idea, they present in here on the forum and its discussed. I am always watching the threads to see how much interest there is. It does seem like this thread was hijacked over a sturdier tip on the PM2, difficulties getting models in Europe, and the coatings on the Japanese clips?

If you think that you have a good idea, present it and we'll discuss it. Comparing us to digital companies, Chinese made companies, or any other comparison, Take a step back and see what we do....and not what we don't do?

sal

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby araneae » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:39 am

MotoBro wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:10 am
Relax with gatekeeping. I made it clear I didn’t expect it to ever happen. But it would definitely curtail some of the demand for exclusives and sprints. People are always chasing their “grail knife” from their favorite manufacturer. Allowing people to customize their favorite model would at least satisfy some of those desires.
Maybe relax with the assumption that I am "gatekeeping" rather than trying to help a newer member out with a piece of information.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick

Just got: Zcarta Shaman

The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal

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Re: In the end, who are sprint runs up to?

Postby Menipo » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:15 am

sal wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:31 am

If you think that you have a good idea, present it and we'll discuss it. Comparing us to digital companies, Chinese made companies, or any other comparison, Take a step back and see what we do....and not what we don't do?

sal

Sal, I admire your patiente and courtesy but IMHO you are fighting a losing battle. Reading this from someone who has participated in this forum for more than 3 years says it all:
Chapp wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:58 pm

It isn't a secret the knife world is the best at not giving people what they want. I mean, how many years before we finally got a Delica in s30v, which was probably the most obvious thing in the world. Of course it's pink and a sprint run, but still. For how long are we going to scrape the paint of our Delica clip ?
Si vis pacem para bellum ;)


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