The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

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Wartstein
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The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:16 pm

Given how popular the BM Bugout and Minibugout are mainly for their ultralight weight, I am a bit surprised that the upcoming Salt 2 ffg in LC200N is not talked about more as an alternative.
Or actually is not marketed a bit more broadly as THE ultralight hiking knife - after all it has practically the same low weight as a bugout and is roughly in the same size range (plus real low-weight-nerds could file down the spine of the Salt a bit and give it a lighter or no clip at all) - and several advantages over the bugout imho.


Lets compare specs first:

Salt 2 ffg: 1.9 oz; 3.00 blade; 2.65 edge; 4.25 closed length
Bugout: 1.9 oz; 3.24 blade; 3.00 edge; 4.22 closed length (note: the weight is stated a bit lower on some sites)
Minibugout: 1.5 oz; 2.82 blade ; 2.7 edge; 3.7 closed length (note: edge length varies on different sites

Now, why do I think the Salt 2 ffg will be the "better" alternative as a ultralightweight (hiking) option?
And what might still speak for the Bugout?

- Pro Salt 2 in that role

+/- Same light weight as a Bugout (so not a real "pro", just a "draw")
+ Totally rustproof (big plus for many!)
+ I am pretty sure less "flimsy", a lot more sturdy (never had a Bugout though! Estimating just from what I read and can see, could be wrong) - the closed back and steel of the lockbar should ensure this
+ (Imho MUCH) better "outdoor-lock": The axxis lock is cool, but also the only locktype that a) failed on me (springs broke twice). and b) came open in my pocket. Both things you really don´t want in the perhaps remoter outdoors (can´t repair the knife / might get a cut far from civilization)
+ I figure a bit more secure grip (a bit more "guard", Ricasso as "protection" before the edge starts should the hand slip)
+ comes in more variant (SE, PE, drop point, wharnie)

- Pro Bugout / Minibugout

+ More edge for the same weight (Bugout), about same edge length for a lower weight (Minibugout)

For me that´s about it... differences in blade shape, clip type are mostly just personal preference things (one could argue so is the locktype, but as explained above: In the outdoors there are strong objective arguments for a backlock over the axxis lock imho)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Evil D » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:20 pm

Salt 2 would get my choice out of these based solely on having a thumb hole and optional serrations.
How you carry yourself is just as important as what you carry.
~David

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby tonijedi » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:24 pm

I've been waiting for it exactly because of this.
It's gonna be great.

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Mushroom » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:32 pm

Now that you mention it, it probably the best Spyderco alternative to a Bugout. You bring up some really good points.

I had kind of dedicated my Para 3 LW as my backpacking knife but thinking about it now, I think I need a FFG Salt 2 to fill that role. ;)
- Nick

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby tonijedi » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:35 pm

The H1 Salt 2 is already fantastic, the new LC200N will blow things away...

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:02 pm

Mushroom wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:32 pm
Now that you mention it, it probably the best Spyderco alternative to a Bugout. You bring up some really good points.

I had kind of dedicated my Para 3 LW as my backpacking knife but thinking about it now, I think I need a FFG Salt 2 to fill that role. ;)

The Para 3 LW certainly is a really nice lightweight hiking knife. But not a bugout-ish ultra-light one (it is very -, but not really light for a linerless folder, actually has the weight of the "Salt-WITH-liners", the Delica)
Furthermore, it is very rustresistend, but not totally rustproof.

I normally don´t care neither for total rustproofness, nor for ultra-light weight, but this is different for the specific roles a Salt 2 ffg would fill for me:

1.) Knife for the few (multi-)days in the mountains when really each fraction of an ounce less weight counts

2.) I always have in my pack a waterproof pouch with some (emergency and other) essentials like a small headlamp, my leatherman Juice CS4, some paracord, zip ties, firestarter and so on.
I am really thinking about throwing a wharnie ffg SE Salt without clip in there too and let it live there permanently, for "just in case" and additionally to the knife I carry always anyway. I think a Salt ffg without clip has SOO little weight that it really just does not matter. And in wharnie SE must still be a mean cutter for emergencies! :)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:41 pm

Two more points:

1.) People might argue, that the UKPK Salt has about the same dimensions and properties as the SALT 2 ffg, but is even lighter and so an even better "Bugout-alternative"
But I say no. The UKPK has no lock. In normal EDC use with a small knife that is held with one finger in the choil most times anyway, this might not be a problem at all.
Not so in outdoors use: For one there are tasks where the blade could collapse on your finger (kind of drilling and so on).
And then: It is a lot more important in the (remote) outdoors to avoid bleeding cuts as good as possible. Not just annoying, but you might be confronted with a lot of dirt in all the typical outdoor tasks and an infection is just not nice on a multi-day hike... ;)

2.) I think people often underestimate how extremely useful and fine shavings/feathersticks a Spyderco ffg SE blade can produce.
Just try for yourself! On a nasty, wet day in the woods they really help in firestarting, as they would in an emergency.
So keeping that superlight wharnie SE Salt 2 without clip in the pack might be a well worth investment in safety.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Spydergirl88 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:48 pm

Well I was really leaning towards getting the ukpk salt as my next spydie but if the salt 2 FFG comes out first I'll get that instead. You sold me on it, Wartstein.

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:54 pm

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Well I was really leaning towards getting the ukpk salt as my next spydie but if the salt 2 FFG comes out first I'll get that instead. You sold me on it, Wartstein.

I feel honored, Spydergirl! ;)
And most likely we´ll share the same model then! But keep in mind: Obviously I never actually held a Salt 2 ffg yet ;), but I think my thoughts about it should be pretty sound - ?!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Spydergirl88 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:58 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:54 pm
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Well I was really leaning towards getting the ukpk salt as my next spydie but if the salt 2 FFG comes out first I'll get that instead. You sold me on it, Wartstein.

I feel honored, Spydergirl! ;)
And most likely we´ll share the same model then! But keep in mind: Obviously I never actually held a Salt 2 ffg yet ;), but I think my thoughts about it should be pretty sound - ?!
Sounds pretty accurate, I haven't held one either. Well thought out points. Even if someone isn't familiar with the Delica or bugout I think they can follow your line of thinking and facts presented and make a good decision

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby ugaarguy » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:19 pm

No love for the Native 5 LW, Warstein? :D

At 2.4/2.5 oz it's hardly a heavyweight either. It's also made in the USA like Bugouts, because 'Murica :cool: . All the N5 FRN variants weigh either 2.4 or 2.5 oz, per the tech specs on Spyderco's website. You can get a corrosion proof Salt model or the regular S30V blade model in PE or full SE. You can get all sorts of other flavors with PE blades. And the Native 5 has the finger choil that we all know is superior to the ricasso on the Delica and Salt 2. :p

All kidding aside, you're right. The regular saber grind Salt 2 is only the tiniest bit heavier than the FFG LC200N Salt 2 as well. Spyderco really should market all the Salt 2 and Native 5 FRN variants to the ultralight crowd. The bugout may win on absolute weight to edge length ratio, but Spyderco easily beats it on wider array of variants to get just what the individual wants or needs for any niche. You're also correct that Spyderco's liner-less FRN folders are more sturdy feeling than the Bugouts.

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby vivi » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:37 pm

I'd rather carry another half ounce and bring a Pacific Salt.

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby ugaarguy » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:48 pm

vivi wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:37 pm
I'd rather carry another half ounce and bring a Pacific Salt.
I've never noticed that the Pac Salt 2 Green LC200N was only 0.2 oz heavier than the Native 5 Salt. I've been tempted by the longer blade and green handle color that I like anyway. You're making it even harder to resist.

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Notsurewhy » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:57 pm

I've said for a while now that Spyderco needs to offer something in that sweet spot of 3" usable edge that's ultralight. Benchmade is printing money with the bugout and Spyderco doesn't have an knife in that exact niche. The endela and rockjumper are more than 50% heavier, the ukpk has no lock. The closest they have is the probably the centofante which is, I believe marketed as more of a gents knife.

People like to compare the bugout to the delica/salt, native 5 or chap, but it is as close or closer to the endura/Pacific than it is to those knifes in edge length. Many people don't like to carry an endura or larger sized knife, but want more edge than a salt offers. If Spyderco offered a linerless endela or rock/leafjumper salt in ffg lc200n, i think they'd have a perfect competitor. That or a medium native lw with around 3.5" blade/3" edge. Bonus points if either comes with 2.5mm stock like the bugout.

I really hope they come out with something, because I end up carrying the bugout a lot in shorts in the summer, but I end up missing the spydie ergos when it's pressed into more than light use

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:07 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:19 pm
No love for the Native 5 LW, Warstein? :D

.....

@Ugaarguy: Sure, I did like my Native 5 LW a lot! :)
Just sold it cause the Chap FRN gave me almost the same amount of cutting edge (2.35 vs 2.42) for less weight (2.1 vs 2.5 despite the linered, sturdy built of the Chap) plus a better performing blade and for me more stable ergos (not necessarily more comfortable, but in harder use the Chap sits firmer in my particular hand, while the Native tends to "roll" a bit more)

And, what people often forget:
The Delica (actually a "Salt with liners") is still lighter than the Native 5 LW (2.3 vs 2.5 oz according to Spydercos own specs), despite having liners (which has pros and cons of course). Plus a lot of grip area on the handle and a bit more edge to work with and a thinner blade. I actually prefer the Delica a bit over the Native 5 LW.

Now in the particular context of this thread none of the three Spydies above is like he upcoming Salt 2 ffg in LC200N: - especially "marketing-wise" for the broad market:

- Many people rave about the extremely light weight of the BM Bugout at around 1.9 oz / "under 2 ounces".
- With the Salt 2 ffg Spyderco now has a model with practically the same dimensions (less cutting edge of course), for practically the same, under-2-ounces weight (also around 1.9 oz) and they could market it as that:
THEIR ultralight general use folder. I think, regardless if one really needs that (and most DON`T, practically speaking) the "UNDER 2 ounce"-thing and being "like the bugout" in weight is something that would be intriguing to many customers, if more marketed in that way.

The Salt 2 in sabre grind and H1 did not have the same appeal or potential for the general market (!) imho:
- It still "missed" the (again, just marketing-wise!) "magic under 2 ounces mark"
- and I think H1 just had too much the image of being an extremely specialized steel for (only) marine environments with to many downsides for general use (just in sabre hollow; soft; lacking edge retention...) - not MY thoughts, but probably the perception in the general market.
Last edited by Wartstein on Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:12 pm

vivi wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:37 pm
I'd rather carry another half ounce and bring a Pacific Salt.

Sure Vivi, thanks to mostly YOU (since you really pointed me towards the Pac Salt back then :) ) I would do so too! :)
BUT:
- Marketingwise - not really practically speaking - the "under 2 ounces" thing of the Salt in ffg is still something else than the Pac Salt
- And: As a backup that I just let live in my Pac for emergencies while STILL carrying a Pac Salt or whatever anyway, a Salt 2 ffg with the clip removed is a perfect choice. Make it the wharnie SE, and with its thinner blade and that blade shape it will "beat" even the Pac Salt in certain tasks.
- Plus: For me there actually ARE a few (VERY few) days in a year where I count every fraction of an ounce of my pack load.
Its then when I´d perhaps "just" bring a Salt (and not a Pac Salt)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:19 pm

I guess I´ll start a dedicated thread about that "marketing thing" tomorrow.

I could imagine that it would open a bit of a new market for Spyderco if they made a second version of the Salt 2 ffg in LC200N, gave it perhaps a wire clip and a different handle color (like bright blue or forest green....), just called it the "ultra-hiker" or whatever and marketed it as "their" bugout-ish superlight, "under 2 oz" folder...

The Salt, just by its name alone, might still have the image in the general market to be "only" specialized for marine environments. It also gets rarely ever recommended as Spydercos bugout alternative, but very often the Para 3 LW instead, which I personally like better than the Bugout, but which always "looses" in such comparisons (for the general market!) by its "heavier" weight...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Monty » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:28 pm

I think we've had this discussion before and the difference between "lightweight" and "ultralight" hikers came up. For a time I carried a Ladybug, now I carry a tin can opener that doubles as a blade for opening foil packages. I'm hiking, fast. Not bush crafting or camping. It's fun to carry your favorite knife but when you start carrying extra stuff all those grams add up.

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:35 pm

Notsurewhy wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:57 pm
I've said for a while now that Spyderco needs to offer something in that sweet spot of 3" usable edge that's ultralight. Benchmade is printing money with the bugout and Spyderco doesn't have an knife in that exact niche. The endela and rockjumper are more than 50% heavier, the ukpk has no lock. ....

Yes, we need the "Endela Salt" / Mediterrenean Salt" ;)

I even started a thread about this once:
https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85893
Last edited by Wartstein on Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:39 pm

Monty wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:28 pm
I think we've had this discussion before and the difference between "lightweight" and "ultralight" hikers came up. For a time I carried a Ladybug, now I carry a tin can opener that doubles as a blade for opening foil packages. I'm hiking, fast. Not bush crafting or camping. It's fun to carry your favorite knife but when you start carrying extra stuff all those grams add up.

I get that in your special scenario!

But there are a lot off "middle ground" scenarios, especially in mountaineering, where one wants to or has to go light but still wants to or has to carry a "real" folder, but as light as possible. I would not want to have to rely on a tin can opener for example in an emergency in some remote area.
It is such applications where the Salt 2 could really shine!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40


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