Drop Point/Clip Point vs. Wharncliffe?

[Knife1]

Recently there's been the addition of the Delica as well as the Dragonfly and even the Manbug in wharncliffe versus their original drop point/clip point designs. As such, I'm wondering if anyone has compared the difference with the wharncliffe blade versus the original when slashing something? Is it deeper, longer, the same, less?

[JRinFL]

Slashing or pull cuts will always be more efficient with a wharncliffe versus the other blade profiles.

[Knife1]

Slashing or pull cuts will always be more efficient with a wharncliffe versus the other blade profiles.

I've been giving it much though and came out more confused than before. If you slash something like a hand where the entire length of the blade traverses then a wharncliffe would indeed have an advantage because it would allow equal pressure to be applied throughout the cut as the tip doesn't curve upwards. However, if it's a horizontal slash where only a part of the blade will make contact, such as a self-defense slash to the upper body, then wouldn't a drop/clip point have an advantage? Because of the curved tip it allows the blade to make the initial cut with less force needed and therefore cuts deeper initially because it makes contact with the curve. Once the blade straightens out since it still has a tip it will cut the full length of the blade but with the benefit of the curve opening the way first whereas with the wharncliffe initially it would require more force to make the cut deep since it had no curvature to slice so you're basically chopping the initial cut and as such run the risk of not making the initial cut deep enough and as such making the entire cut more shallow than it could have been?

[JRinFL]

This thread and linked video might help if you haven't already seen it. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88357&p=1478154&hil ... e#p1478154

[Wartstein]

Recently there's been the addition of the Delica as well as the Dragonfly and even the Manbug in wharncliffe versus their original drop point/clip point designs. As such, I'm wondering if anyone has compared the difference with the wharncliffe blade versus the original when slashing something? Is it deeper, longer, the same, less?

I am pretty certain: Deeper and longer with a wharncliffe!

See this very interesting vid https://youtu.be/hnPhVIFZTb0 where Michael Janich explains the wharncliff blade and why/where it is superior.
On slashing/stabbing start at about 06:15 in the vid - and than especially starting at about 11:00

(Edit: Since you are rather new to this forum you might now know: Mr. Janich is also one of the moderators here, chimes in from time to time and is a true expert on knives, especially (but not only) in their application as (SD) weapons.)

[VooDooChild]

Get a wharncliffe, a clip point, a drop point, some cardboard and start slashing.

[Abyss_Fish]

The seki style wharncliffe is the best all around blade shape you can get in a pocket knife. Perfect marriage between tip strength, spine strength, slicing and piercing ability. Wharncliffe is always the correct choice for an all around. There's certainly shapes better for very specific tasks, but nothing beats the wharny for all around use, there are no downsides to it.

[Knife1]

I tried the wharncliffe vs the drop/clip point Delica, Dragonfly, and Manbug today. I tried them on an industrial paper towel roll inside jeans so that could have had an impact on results since it's hard material, probably significantly harder than flesh. However, with all 3 knives I found the wharncliffe to make more shallow cuts. The wharncliffe cuts were in fact consistent throughout the cut, which played to its disadvantage compared to a drop/clip point. The drop/clip point, on the other hand, started out like the wharncliffe. But because it has a curve the curve actually cut into the paper towels as I glided it across the paper towel roll. As a result the cuts were deeper to begin with, but digged in deeper as the cut progressed. I was pretty impressed when I saw this and wanted to understand why. What I concluded was that the wharncliffe, being straight, the blade was never vertical when slashing, it was always somewhat horizontal. But the clip/drop point used the curve ar the tip to effortlessly dig deeper into the paper towels as I slashed across. The result was that at one point these blades were completely vertical resulting in a significantly deeper cut, at least in one section of the cut.
Is this normal or am I slashing wrong?

[Wartstein]

I tried the wharncliffe vs the drop/clip point Delica, Dragonfly, and Manbug today. ....

Actually really unusual results... don't know why you had those, but in a test like yours the wharncliffe should really do best, just by physics and geometry..
Again, see this thread and the vids linked there viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88357#p1495755
And perhaps post your tesults once more in that thread where Michael Janich might be more likely to see them and reply? He really is the expert on this

[Michael Janich]

Hey, Knife 1:

Thank you for your question and thanks to everybody for the discussion.

I typically avoid the term "slash," as it tends to have a negative connotation and also suggests an untrained action. Instead, I divide "cutting" into two forms--ballistic cutting, in which your hand and knife are in motion throughout the entire cutting action, and pressure cutting, in which the blade is first indexed against the target and then pressure is applied to create the cut. A "slash" would be more consistent with a ballistic cut.

The most efficient cut uses as much of the length of the cutting edge as possible and applies constant, unwavering pressure into the target all the way through the cutting action. For maximum effect with a small, light knife--like a folder--it also involves having a stable wrist platform. The "natural" angle of the human hand, which is the angle between the axis of the forearm and the muscle at the base of the thumb, is about 135 degrees. (Note: That angle is why target pistols, which have comparably angled grips, point so naturally.).

Because our arms are comprised of joints, our hand--and the knife--will travel in an arc throughout the path of the cut. The "perfect" cut would have the knife make contact with the target at the heel of the edge and, with the wrist stable, continue through the target drawing the full length of the edge through it. Longitudinal motion of the edge is what creates the cutting action. At the same time, the pressure of the blade into the target should remain constant, both to continue the maximum effect of the cut and to compensate for compression of the target or "parting" of the target as you cut deeper. The straight edge of a Wharncliffe does this exceptionally well.

When you have a blade shape that has belly near the tip or an Americanized tanto point, the pressure applied by the edge will diminish significantly when the arc of motion of your arm and the arc of the blade's edge begin to coincide or run parallel.

Remember, all these dynamics are based on the use of a small (roughly 4.5 inches or less), light blade. There is another school of thought and tactics that emphasizes "snap cutting." This technique uses a saber grip with the wrist cammed forward to put the knife closer in line with the axis of the forearm (an approach that requires more conscious effort and training and can make shock transfer to your hand during thrusting much less pleasant). With this grip, the knife is "whipped" into the target with a snapping motion, purposely trying to make contact with the distal portion of the blade. Perhaps best expressed by WWII close-combat legend John Styers in his book "Cold Steel" (in my opinion, the best WWII-era book on knife fighting), this technique works best with longer, somewhat heavier blades with belly near the point--like the KABAR/Mark 2 fighting knife. When applied with other knives that had straighter edges--like the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger--the blade's light weight and the straight edge would not produce the same result. It would simply "tear" the target superficially.

Maximum performance is a matter of not only understanding the mechanics of cutting, but pairing the right blade profile with your preferred set of tactics. When I teach my MBC students, at first they just "go through the motions" of using the knife. As their skills develop, I get them to feel the mechanics of every cut in every drill. Interestingly, when the Yojimbo 2 came out, there was a bit of a delay before a trainer became available, so we all continued to use Endura Trainers. When the Yojimbo 2 Trainer finally arrived and I delivered the first batch of them to excited students at Martial Blade Camp, everyone was stoked to finally work with a trainer that replicated their carry knife. After the first full day of training, I noticed a number of people had switched back to their Endura Trainers. When I asked them why, they explained that the Enduras were more forgiving during long training sessions because of the curve to the edge. The straight edge of the Yo 2--even thoughtfully blunted for safe contact--"hung on" longer and made each simulated cut a little more taxing.

I hope this helps...

Stay safe,

Mike

[Doc Dan]

https://youtu.be/u5SHPjWRDDw

Blade about the size of a Manbug.

[VooDooChild]

Try doing a hard fast cut on some soft pine. Like a 2x4. Put your weight into it and keep your grip tight. See what the clip point does and then what the wharncliffe does.

[James Y]

Hey, Knife 1:

Thank you for your question and thanks to everybody for the discussion.

I typically avoid the term "slash," as it tends to have a negative connotation and also suggests an untrained action. Instead, I divide "cutting" into two forms--ballistic cutting, in which your hand and knife are in motion throughout the entire cutting action, and pressure cutting, in which the blade is first indexed against the target and then pressure is applied to create the cut. A "slash" would be more consistent with a ballistic cut.

The most efficient cut uses as much of the length of the cutting edge as possible and applies constant, unwavering pressure into the target all the way through the cutting action. For maximum effect with a small, light knife--like a folder--it also involves having a stable wrist platform. The "natural" angle of the human hand, which is the angle between the axis of the forearm and the muscle at the base of the thumb, is about 135 degrees. (Note: That angle is why target pistols, which have comparably angled grips, point so naturally.).

Because our arms are comprised of joints, our hand--and the knife--will travel in an arc throughout the path of the cut. The "perfect" cut would have the knife make contact with the target at the heel of the edge and, with the wrist stable, continue through the target drawing the full length of the edge through it. Longitudinal motion of the edge is what creates the cutting action. At the same time, the pressure of the blade into the target should remain constant, both to continue the maximum effect of the cut and to compensate for compression of the target or "parting" of the target as you cut deeper. The straight edge of a Wharncliffe does this exceptionally well.

When you have a blade shape that has belly near the tip or an Americanized tanto point, the pressure applied by the edge will diminish significantly when the arc of motion of your arm and the arc of the blade's edge begin to coincide or run parallel.

Remember, all these dynamics are based on the use of a small (roughly 4.5 inches or less), light blade. There is another school of thought and tactics that emphasizes "snap cutting." This technique uses a saber grip with the wrist cammed forward to put the knife closer in line with the axis of the forearm (an approach that requires more conscious effort and training and can make shock transfer to your hand during thrusting much less pleasant). With this grip, the knife is "whipped" into the target with a snapping motion, purposely trying to make contact with the distal portion of the blade. Perhaps best expressed by WWII close-combat legend John Styers in his book "Cold Steel" (in my opinion, the best WWII-era book on knife fighting), this technique works best with longer, somewhat heavier blades with belly near the point--like the KABAR/Mark 2 fighting knife. When applied with other knives that had straighter edges--like the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger--the blade's light weight and the straight edge would not produce the same result. It would simply "tear" the target superficially.

Maximum performance is a matter of not only understanding the mechanics of cutting, but pairing the right blade profile with your preferred set of tactics. When I teach my MBC students, at first they just "go through the motions" of using the knife. As their skills develop, I get them to feel the mechanics of every cut in every drill. Interestingly, when the Yojimbo 2 came out, there was a bit of a delay before a trainer became available, so we all continued to use Endura Trainers. When the Yojimbo 2 Trainer finally arrived and I delivered the first batch of them to excited students at Martial Blade Camp, everyone was stoked to finally work with a trainer that replicated their carry knife. After the first full day of training, I noticed a number of people had switched back to their Endura Trainers. When I asked them why, they explained that the Enduras were more forgiving during long training sessions because of the curve to the edge. The straight edge of the Yo 2--even thoughtfully blunted for safe contact--"hung on" longer and made each simulated cut a little more taxing.

I hope this helps...

Stay safe,

Mike

It’s always a pleasure whenever you share such detailed knowledge and experience, Mr. Janich.

Jim

[Knife1]

Hey, Knife 1:

Thank you for your question and thanks to everybody for the discussion.

I typically avoid the term "slash," as it tends to have a negative connotation and also suggests an untrained action. Instead, I divide "cutting" into two forms--ballistic cutting, in which your hand and knife are in motion throughout the entire cutting action, and pressure cutting, in which the blade is first indexed against the target and then pressure is applied to create the cut. A "slash" would be more consistent with a ballistic cut.

The most efficient cut uses as much of the length of the cutting edge as possible and applies constant, unwavering pressure into the target all the way through the cutting action. For maximum effect with a small, light knife--like a folder--it also involves having a stable wrist platform. The "natural" angle of the human hand, which is the angle between the axis of the forearm and the muscle at the base of the thumb, is about 135 degrees. (Note: That angle is why target pistols, which have comparably angled grips, point so naturally.).

Because our arms are comprised of joints, our hand--and the knife--will travel in an arc throughout the path of the cut. The "perfect" cut would have the knife make contact with the target at the heel of the edge and, with the wrist stable, continue through the target drawing the full length of the edge through it. Longitudinal motion of the edge is what creates the cutting action. At the same time, the pressure of the blade into the target should remain constant, both to continue the maximum effect of the cut and to compensate for compression of the target or "parting" of the target as you cut deeper. The straight edge of a Wharncliffe does this exceptionally well.

When you have a blade shape that has belly near the tip or an Americanized tanto point, the pressure applied by the edge will diminish significantly when the arc of motion of your arm and the arc of the blade's edge begin to coincide or run parallel.

Remember, all these dynamics are based on the use of a small (roughly 4.5 inches or less), light blade. There is another school of thought and tactics that emphasizes "snap cutting." This technique uses a saber grip with the wrist cammed forward to put the knife closer in line with the axis of the forearm (an approach that requires more conscious effort and training and can make shock transfer to your hand during thrusting much less pleasant). With this grip, the knife is "whipped" into the target with a snapping motion, purposely trying to make contact with the distal portion of the blade. Perhaps best expressed by WWII close-combat legend John Styers in his book "Cold Steel" (in my opinion, the best WWII-era book on knife fighting), this technique works best with longer, somewhat heavier blades with belly near the point--like the KABAR/Mark 2 fighting knife. When applied with other knives that had straighter edges--like the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger--the blade's light weight and the straight edge would not produce the same result. It would simply "tear" the target superficially.

Maximum performance is a matter of not only understanding the mechanics of cutting, but pairing the right blade profile with your preferred set of tactics. When I teach my MBC students, at first they just "go through the motions" of using the knife. As their skills develop, I get them to feel the mechanics of every cut in every drill. Interestingly, when the Yojimbo 2 came out, there was a bit of a delay before a trainer became available, so we all continued to use Endura Trainers. When the Yojimbo 2 Trainer finally arrived and I delivered the first batch of them to excited students at Martial Blade Camp, everyone was stoked to finally work with a trainer that replicated their carry knife. After the first full day of training, I noticed a number of people had switched back to their Endura Trainers. When I asked them why, they explained that the Enduras were more forgiving during long training sessions because of the curve to the edge. The straight edge of the Yo 2--even thoughtfully blunted for safe contact--"hung on" longer and made each simulated cut a little more taxing.

I hope this helps...

Stay safe,

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply. After reading your post I analyzed once again what I was doing, how I was moving the knives and my hand/arm, and using what you just mentioned I noticed something that I'm wondering if perhaps this could be the reason why in the tests that I did the Drop/Clip point was more favorable than a wharncliffe when the opposite should be the case? While I was also thinking that I was doing a ballistic cut, perhaps it's more of whip? You mention that a "perfect" ballistic cut would begin with the heel of the blade and carry through consistently. However, what I found out that I was doing is making contact with maybe 65% or less of the blade. So this would be more like a whip, correct? Although I do move my arm from side to side like a ballistic cut, but because only the top half of the knife makes contact could this be why the Drop/Clip point yields me better results than a wharncliffe?

Thanks

[Bloke]

better results than a wharncliffe

[Knife1]

I just re-did all of my tests getting as close to the heel of the blade when striking. Now without a doubt it's a ballistic cut. So I've come to the conclusion that I have to try my tests again with a piece of meat because it's got to be the hardness of the paper towels on the roll and the force with which I wield the knife because now I made contact with the blade all the way at the heel, careful not to go to far that I hit the handle first before the blade, and still the same results, the belly of the Drop/Clip Point really just slices through the paper towels whereas the wharncliffe struggles to penetrate. My take is that the wharncliffe keeps constant pressure and would make a better cut if the required force is used but if you use less force the belly of the blade requires less force to initially penetrate and although not as good as a cut in the end because it requires less force to penetrate it could yield better penetration results depending on the amount of force that you use. I'm guessing if it's a soft target such as flesh that requires significantly less force applied than tightly packed industrial grade paper rolls then a wharncliffe, if given the force that it requires, will benefit from its straight blade.

[VooDooChild]

Try doing some cuts where just the tip is making the cut. So the top third of the blade or so. The wharncliffe is all about concentrating cutting power at the tip.

[Wartstein]

Try doing some cuts where just the tip is making the cut. So the top third of the blade or so. The wharncliffe is all about concentrating cutting power at the tip.

Yes, and I think actually most "utiliy cuts" and probably sd cuts will be done or start with the that top third.

[Naperville]

I've been giving it much though and came out more confused than before. If you slash something like a hand where the entire length of the blade traverses then a wharncliffe would indeed have an advantage because it would allow equal pressure to be applied throughout the cut as the tip doesn't curve upwards. However, if it's a horizontal slash where only a part of the blade will make contact, such as a self-defense slash to the upper body, then wouldn't a drop/clip point have an advantage? Because of the curved tip it allows the blade to make the initial cut with less force needed and therefore cuts deeper initially because it makes contact with the curve. Once the blade straightens out since it still has a tip it will cut the full length of the blade but with the benefit of the curve opening the way first whereas with the wharncliffe initially it would require more force to make the cut deep since it had no curvature to slice so you're basically chopping the initial cut and as such run the risk of not making the initial cut deep enough and as such making the entire cut more shallow than it could have been?

When I studied Filipino martial arts, knife arts, we trained to get the whole blade on the target. A flat blade like a wharncliffe is especially good at slashing or ballistic cuts. Your hand has to get close to the intended target, almost touching, and provide a path for the edge to follow.

Think of it as you dragging a 2 foot long string behind your hand on a target, and do not lift your hand off of the intended path until well clear of the target.

Wharncliffe knives are not well known for thrusts, but the Yojimbo and Yojumbo try to take care of that by providing a pretty good tip for thrusting. A wharncliffe probably will not penetrate as well as a Drop Point/Clip Point. There is a tradeoff for the slicing potential.

[Knife1]

Try doing some cuts where just the tip is making the cut. So the top third of the blade or so. The wharncliffe is all about concentrating cutting power at the tip.

Just did. Definitely the Drop/Clip point if it's less than half of the blade. With my style of slash the Drop/Clip point always penetrates better but it's closer if the whole length of the blade is used. If it's less than 1/2 definitely the belly of the Drop/Clip Point penetrates more, at least for me.