Siren - strange lock movement

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craytab
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#81

Post by craytab »

VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:32 pm
It could still potentially be a safety issue. If somehow the lockbar got stuck in the up position during use after lock slip occured.
Like maybe under hard use the lockbar slips up and then the meat of your hands or gloves kind of fill the lockbar well and the the lockbar doesnt reslip back into the locked position but stays unlocked. I feel like you would almost have to try to make this happen but the lock certainly isnt supposed to be slipping to begin with.
This is a point that stuck with me even though I knew in theory the lock popping up and unlocking was not a safety issue because of the reasons stated by Xplorer above.

I could not get over the issue. I shouldn't have to feel and then see the lock bar move and pop up when cutting a quesadilla in my kitchen at home, much less if I was depending on the knife for work or god forbid, a dire cutting need.

I understand that things happen, and I appreciate Sal explaining what the delay was on the fix, over on bladeforums. Still, I've moved on from the model, which really really sucks because the thought and design from Lance is so good, along with the materials from Spyderco. I hold no ill will though. The Pacific Salt 2 LC200n is my most carried knife now.
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bearfacedkiller
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#82

Post by bearfacedkiller »

We can make excuses but this isn’t the quality I have come to expect from a Golden lockback or any knife at this price point.

There were way too many reports for me to make the purchase. This knife is high on my wishlist but until I know it will have a Native5 level of lockup I will continue to wait. For months now I have continually checked the thread on bladeforums for an update but so far nothing.

I have much respect for all parties involved. I have personally dealt with Sal, Lance and Chad and they are exceptional people. I very much want to see this knife succeed.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
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wrdwrght
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#83

Post by wrdwrght »

Accutron wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:57 am
Sal posted this to the equivalent thread on Bladeforums on 8/25...

We will surely offer a solution and you have my sincere apology for the length of time it's taking. We have been working steadily on it, and the "fixes" which we invested much time and funds on did not work.

The Factory manager thought he had a fix and cut thousands of blades and locks, which fixed the "Pop up", but he interface didn't work well and the the locks defeated. So back to the engineers. They found that they had to move the lock pivot to a few different locations and test to find the sweet spot. Remember a thousands of an inch makes a difference. Now we have found the sweet spot for the lock pivot and we're testing before running thousands of more blades and locks. One we've tested and approved of the new pivot location, they we'll begin building replacement models.
When Sal says things like this, I’m almost content to have an imperfect Spydie model pop up once in a while just to see how an ethical company behaves when things go wrong.

I shall wait patiently. Decency is worth the while.

Besides, if the play in my Siren bothers me, I’ll just use my Waterway. No play there…
Last edited by wrdwrght on Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#84

Post by JRinFL »

The lock movement is the only thing holding it back from near perfection. When a Spyderco gets it sorted out, it will the one to get. In my opinion, of course.
"...it costs nothing to be polite." - Winston Churchill
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attila
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#85

Post by attila »

bearfacedkiller wrote: We can make excuses but this isn’t the quality I have come to expect from a Golden lockback or any knife at this price point.

There were way too many reports for me to make the purchase. This knife is high on my wishlist but until I know it will have a Native5 level of lockup I will continue to wait. For months now I have continually checked the thread on bladeforums for an update but so far nothing.

I have much respect for all parties involved. I have personally dealt with Sal, Lance and Chad and they are exceptional people. I very much want to see this knife succeed.
^This is exactly how I feel about it.
Have: old S30V Native, HAP40 Endura, ZDP DF2, S110V Manix LW, Cru-wear Para 3, SE H1 DF2, S90V Native 5, K390 Urban, SE Pac Salt, P.I.T.S., XHP Manix LW, SB Caly 3, B70P, PMA11, K03, Kapara, REX 45 Military, 154CM Manix LW, Swick, AEB-L Urban, KC Cruwear Manix, M390 PM2, Mantra 2, CruCarta Shaman, M390 Manix, K390 Police 4, S90V Manix LW, Rex 45 Manix LW, 20CV Manix, Rex 45 Lil’Native, Shaman, C208GP, Cruwear Manix, Cruwear Manix, M4 Chief, Z-max!!!

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Matus
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#86

Post by Matus »

Ditto
... I like weird :bug-red :bug-white-red :bug-white ...
on_the_edge
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#87

Post by on_the_edge »

I initially thought mine did not have this issue, but I played with it holding it a few different ways and I in fact could make the lock rise up under certain circumstances. For me personally, I am not too concerned that it poses a safety issue for me. Also, I think Lance did some extensive testing with the Siren very early on and so far as I know, he has never voiced a concern that the issue is a "safety issue".

Does anyone know what Spyderco will likely do when the CQI version finally makes its appearance? Will they offer the CQI version as an even exchange for the v1 or will it be on us to buy the CQI version if that's what we need/want?
skeeg11
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#88

Post by skeeg11 »

We live in an increasingly litigious society. Were there any serious safety concerns it probably would have been recalled.
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mb1
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#89

Post by mb1 »

Xplorer wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:41 pm
phaust wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:26 pm
Xplorer wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:17 pm
JRinFL wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:45 am

In your experience and with your knowledge, is this some thing can be fixed or improved on by a skilled end-user, or is it more likely going to require an all new lock bar and/or blade to solve? I'n not trying to put you on the spot here, so it's OK to side-step the question.
One would have to build a new lock bar and possibly a new blade to do it. And trust me...the geometry looks 100 times more simple than it really is. Sal's right when he says .001" makes a difference. Also, nearly every adjustment to geometry here affects more than one thing at the same time. To get this design to lock-up securely, not slide up, and function easily is a high wire act to say the least.

Fortunately the lock, as it exists, functions just fine and doesn't present a safety concern. It's just not perfect, and that's not what we're used to seeing from the company that consistently produces the best production folders in the industry and brought us the best functioning back-lock ever (the Native).
There's at least one report of a full unlock (https://bladeforums.com/threads/spyderco-siren-lock-issue.1774125/page-5#post-20573929), so it is a safety issue, though that doesn't mean it's common.
I am certainly on the look-out for any failures that would change my view about the safety of this lock as it is. That "report" being the only one AND the person says he looked down and it was just dangling but didn't know how that happened...and then couldn't repeat it makes me think it just isn't credible.

The issue of the lock sliding upward with pressure on the blade is the opposite of the blade coming unlocked. For the lock to unlock as described one would have to apply downward pressure on the spine/tip not upward. That lock as it is won't break loose with downward pressure on the spine/tip. My best guess is he simply pressed the button and didn't realize it, which is why he can't replicate it. I've done way too much real, hard and controlled testing on this knife to conclude anything other than that was a false report.

I confidently stand by my statement that there is no safety issue here.
That was my report. Doubt my credibility all you want I suppose. But just to clarify…

When I said I don’t know how it happened I meant the actual cause of the lock release. I can only speculate so I didn’t. One thought was under full overlock, once the zip tie was cut and pressure was released, maybe the blade sprang back past the lock faster than it could engage. Who knows. It only happened once, and I wouldn’t call it a safety issue either. Just very bizarre as I’ve never encountered that issue on any blade ever.

I had not tried to replicate it at the time. The other day I tried cutting some weed eater line to simulate the condition. Couldn’t repeat it. I also tried gripping the knife as hard as I could in my normal grip and could not unlock it that way.

It will remain a mystery. But I do really like the design and look forward to a fix.
- Mark

"Don't believe everything you think." -anonymous wise man
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Xplorer
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#90

Post by Xplorer »

mb1 wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:13 pm

That was my report. Doubt my credibility all you want I suppose. But just to clarify…

When I said I don’t know how it happened I meant the actual cause of the lock release. I can only speculate so I didn’t. One thought was under full overlock, once the zip tie was cut and pressure was released, maybe the blade sprang back past the lock faster than it could engage. Who knows. It only happened once, and I wouldn’t call it a safety issue either. Just very bizarre as I’ve never encountered that issue on any blade ever.

I had not tried to replicate it at the time. The other day I tried cutting some weed eater line to simulate the condition. Couldn’t repeat it. I also tried gripping the knife as hard as I could in my normal grip and could not unlock it that way.

It will remain a mystery. But I do really like the design and look forward to a fix.
Hi Mark,

I sincerely apologize if the credibility comment offended you.

To be fair your report proposes a theory that even you admit can't be replicated. If it can't be replicated it's simply not credible and I'm just being objective and mean no offense by that.

Best regards,
Chad
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
craytab
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#91

Post by craytab »

Xplorer wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:05 pm
To be fair your report proposes a theory that even you admit can't be replicated. If it can't be replicated it's simply not credible and I'm just being objective and mean no offense by that.
I disagree. One off, unrepeatable events occurring are the exact fear a reasonable person should have when using a knife with a known design flaw that makes the lock disengage. No reason to risk your fingers on a knife with a known lock issue. Like most folks here, I've got plenty of other Spydercos with no known lock issues. I'll choose to carry those knives and I'd advise others to do the same until there is a fix.
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#92

Post by craytab »

on_the_edge wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 pm
Does anyone know what Spyderco will likely do when the CQI version finally makes its appearance? Will they offer the CQI version as an even exchange for the v1 or will it be on us to buy the CQI version if that's what we need/want?
Check the bladeforums thread. Sal has said that they will be taking care of customers who have the issue on their knives.

Latest post from Sal: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/spy ... t-20757561

The whole thread is worth a read if you haven't already.
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Matus
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#93

Post by Matus »

Guys, if Sal said that they are working on a solution, than I take his word for it. The fact that we have not heard any news from Spyderco on this topic yet IMO means, that they have not reached that point yet.
... I like weird :bug-red :bug-white-red :bug-white ...
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Xplorer
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#94

Post by Xplorer »

craytab wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:52 am
Xplorer wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:05 pm
To be fair your report proposes a theory that even you admit can't be replicated. If it can't be replicated it's simply not credible and I'm just being objective and mean no offense by that.
I disagree. One off, unrepeatable events occurring are the exact fear a reasonable person should have when using a knife with a known design flaw that makes the lock disengage....
This is why I responded to all of this in the first place. Unrepeatable AND unexplained are exactly NOT what anyone should have false fears about. I completely agree with being concerned about the lock issue. I think everyone should report whatever really happens with their knife and let's talk about facts. If people want to hold off because the lock isn't right, I understand and don't really disagree with that. But, it is flat-out not helpful for anyone to be creating fear based on unsolved mysteries...especially when the theory can be tested and it doesn't pan out. I've already wasted too much time talking about this fake news. If people want to live life afraid of things that don't exist, be my guest. I've stated the truth here and that's all that really matters to me. I'm done responding to nonsense.
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Surfingringo
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#95

Post by Surfingringo »

Hey guys, I guess I’ll offer my 2 cents since everybody else is doing it, haha.

First of all, I chose to stay on the sidelines of this discussion from the beginning. I did so because I thought it was most appropriate to let Spyderco handle this with their customers as they see fit without me inserting myself in the middle and I remain confident that they will resolve this to everyone’s best interest.

Given that the conversation has turned to the safety of the existing lock though, I thought I would give my input as a hard user of the knife. I am certainly biased about certain characteristics of this design but this performance input is completely unbiased and is no different than what I would give for any model.

This is my current Spyderco Siren.
Image

It is over a year old and has a LOT of miles on it. I take this knife in the ocean everyday on my kayak and it does all of the daily work a saltwater fisherman encounters. In addition, I use this knife to clean almost every fish I catch…some of them are on the “largish” side and many are species with heavy scales and bones. Today’s catch was this Cubera Snapper…I get quite a few of these and they are heavy boned, heavy scaled and rough on a knife.
Image

I use the Siren on these because it is small and compact enough to carry in my waistband but still capable enough to dismantle big fish. I like to clean these guys at the beach when I get in because I have friends who take the heads and carcass to make soup from. It also keeps me from having to drag out cleaning gear and table at the house.

I probably clean four or five fish like that a week. Hands are slippery, lock bar and blade are soaked with saltwater, blood and slippery fish goo. I use the knife in multiple grips including hammer, edge out and choked up. Some of the cuts (like behind the gill) require a good deal of downward force to cut through rib bones. Other cuts are “semi blind” like when I have my hand up under a big fillet popping over the last few vertebrae. I would say that my use is fairly likely to expose any safety issues in a folding knife or its lock. I have been aware of the lock pop issue for the last year but I have experienced zero issues that lead me to believe that it is a safety issue for any of the work I do. I continue to use my knife everyday and it functions great at what I use it for and I give exactly zero worry to the lock failing in a way that could put my fingers in danger. I think if this lock presented a a safety issue, I would already be missing some fingers.

That doesn’t mean I don’t notice the lock pop on mine (I do). It doesn’t meant that I like it when I feel the blade move on heavy downward cuts (I don’t). It doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t be happier with a Siren that locked up as solid as a Native or a Chief (I would). It just means that I beat mine like a rented mule day after day after day and it has not presented any safety issues and I don’t expect it to.

Nobody would like a quick and perfect resolution to this issue more than I would but there is nothing to do at this point but be patient. The Golden facility was already struggling to keep up with demand before this “pandemic” hit and now I can only imagine. I will continue to put my confidence in Sal, Eric and Spyderco to get us all some flawless Sirens as soon as is possible under the current circumstances so that we can all get busy having some big adventures. All I’m saying is I haven’t put any adventures on hold because of this annoyance and I don’t see any “safety” reason for anyone else to either. Thank you everyone for your support of the design and your patience.
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#96

Post by skeeg11 »

Cubara.......YUMMMMMMMMM!
on_the_edge
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#97

Post by on_the_edge »

Thanks for chiming in, Lance. I think I speak for many when I say that I appreciate the info and your perspective.
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#98

Post by on_the_edge »

craytab wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:55 am
on_the_edge wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 pm
Does anyone know what Spyderco will likely do when the CQI version finally makes its appearance? Will they offer the CQI version as an even exchange for the v1 or will it be on us to buy the CQI version if that's what we need/want?
Check the bladeforums thread. Sal has said that they will be taking care of customers who have the issue on their knives.

Latest post from Sal: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/spy ... t-20757561

The whole thread is worth a read if you haven't already.
Yes, I saw that after I posted my question here. But thank you for pointing me (or anyone else that may have that question) to Sal's reply.
craytab
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#99

Post by craytab »

Xplorer wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:52 am
This is why I responded to all of this in the first place. Unrepeatable AND unexplained are exactly NOT what anyone should have false fears about. I completely agree with being concerned about the lock issue. I think everyone should report whatever really happens with their knife and let's talk about facts. If people want to hold off because the lock isn't right, I understand and don't really disagree with that. But, it is flat-out not helpful for anyone to be creating fear based on unsolved mysteries...especially when the theory can be tested and it doesn't pan out. I've already wasted too much time talking about this fake news. If people want to live life afraid of things that don't exist, be my guest. I've stated the truth here and that's all that really matters to me. I'm done responding to nonsense.
So we should only be afraid of, and bring to the table, the solved mysteries. Yup, we are going to have to disagree again there...

What isn't helpful in a discussion is to call the experiences of longtime knife users "false", "not helpful", "fake news", and "nonsense". That is the opposite of valuable discourse.

I'll be done responding to you now since it appears you've let the aggravation over this issue cloud your judgment in discussion. Shinny foot prints and all that. Take care.
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Xplorer
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Re: Siren - strange lock movement

#100

Post by Xplorer »

craytab wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:22 am
... Take care.
I'm sorry if the words I chose were not P.C. enough for you but you're misunderstanding the point. There's no unsolved mystery at all. The claim has been tested and it isn't an actual issue related to the lock. Additionally, it hasn't been reproduced by anyone including the OP who admittedly tried and could not make it happen. If at this point it still makes sense to you to be afraid of that claim just because it was said on-line somewhere that's entirely your prerogative. Best regards.
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
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