Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

[spoonrobot]

Value and resale value

I buy a knife for $125 and it has a badly off-center blade and I know I'll take an instant $15-20 hit if I ever want to sell it. So I feel like I got less for my money.

[Wartstein]

You pay to have your kitchen floor tiled and this is what you get. It doesn't effect performance one bit and it's purely cosmetic. Are you ok with this or would you complain?

David, this is something very different to a slightly off centered blade (just my 2 c of course!)

- Almost every person (nowadays or in past centuries) would immediately and inevitably see these tiles as "off" - either cause it is a serious flaw, or because someone deliberately wanted to put an artistic accent
- But a slightly off centered blade?!: Is actually perfectly done, if you assume that the goal to place it perfectly between the scales so that it can move freely and does not touch either side.

Let me put it this way:

Imagine a sensible person, who knows a bit of and likes perfect tools, but is not a real expert in pocket knives and has never heard that a slightly off centered blade is a sign of "lesser quality" or an issue at all :
Now what would this person probably instinctively and based on common sense do when checking the knife?

- Lock up:Solid; Blade does not wiggle when locked
- Screws: Tight
- Action: Smooth

Perhaps then:
- Edge: Even; Knife sharp
- Scales : No chips or dents
- Blade: No scratches

And then perhaps
- Blade in the scales when knife is closed: Perfectly done, sits between the scales without touching either left or right

Do you really think a slight deviation to the left or right, just perceivable cause the scales give such close reference points, and not at all in the open position, would be an issue by any means for such a person? When the blade sits perfectly between the scales anyway, just not 100% symmetrical?

Honestly, and of course just my opinion: I think the "perfect blade centering" as a thing at all is something that just came up someday and developed a life of its own and spreaded as a "thing" that is of relevance mainly through the internet...

[Wartstein]

A few reasons Steiny, a nicely centred blade shows good craftsmanship, QC and quality, and shows the company isn't happy sending out off centred blades to their paying customers, its basic respect for the customer, pride in a companies product imo.
...

Good points, mate. But still.... I disagree in all friendliness...

I think it is a bit weird (as explained in my post above viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88869&p=1494919#p1494919) that a perfectly centered blade became such an importance as sign of "quality"when it really isn´t (at least in all knives I had the slightly off centered ones where 100% as good and durable as the dead centered. Blade misalignment that does impairfunctionality is a different story, but not the topic here).

I personally don´t even feel that an off centered blade "looks bad" (but get why people do!!) - and if it would to me: When would In even see and notice it?

Honestly, for me Spyderco shows "quality" by producing knives that have blades that sit perfectly between the scales without touching one
And also honestly I rather want them to save time and production capacity (and perhaps make the prices a bit lower) by NOT investing a lot of effort in making each blade 100% centered from the factory! (but rather use that capacity to make a surprise run of a serrated K390 Micarta backlock Caribbean... :D :p )

[Wartstein]

Those who have worked in manufacturing know that tolerances are applied to all dimensions on an engineering print. It's bad engineering to apply super precise tolerances to every dimension of every part. You are adding unnecessary cost, cycle time, and QC fallout by requiring super tight tolerances where it does not matter functionally. The best engineers have a good eye for what is a critical dimension and what is not. The critical dimensions get the tightest tolerances. Good engineering is providing the loosest tolerance as possible to non-critical dimensions to lower the manufacturing cost of the product. To me that's why a slightly off-center blade doesn't indicate a risk of lack of quality in other areas of the knife. And that's why you shouldn't assume it "got past QC". QC inspection is usually on a small sample of all the products, first of all, and second of all they probably are inspecting to a tolerance and not checking for perfect centering.

Now, it's perfectly reasonable for a dimension to be labeled critical because of aesthetics. If the business decides a certain feature is important to the end user aesthetically, they will work that into the product requirements so the designer knows to tighten the tolerance. This happens all the time. However, I don't think blade centering is one of those things with Spyderco. Maybe with a super expensive CNC small batch knife.

These are pretty much exactly my totally layman-ish thoughts.
Did not know that they are even somehow "production principles", thought out by people much cleverer than I am.
Thanks for sharing! :)

[Wartstein]

If I weren't interested in the precision of the build nor the aesthetics, I'd just use a box opener or a cheap production knife for most all of my tasks. They're easy to keep sharp and they're disposable.

A certain price point implies a certain level of quality in both the materials and the build. IMHO.

Sure. But is 100% blade centering really a criteria for build quality? Honest question, and no "right or wrong" most likely.
But still: For me is not.

[Evil D]

You pay to have your kitchen floor tiled and this is what you get. It doesn't effect performance one bit and it's purely cosmetic. Are you ok with this or would you complain?

David, this is something very different to a slightly off centered blade (just my 2 c of course!)

- Almost every person (nowadays or in past centuries) would immediately and inevitably see these tiles as "off" - either cause it is a serious flaw, or because someone deliberately wanted to put an artistic accent
- But a slightly off centered blade?!: Is actually perfectly done, if you assume that the goal to place it perfectly between the scales so that it can move freely and does not touch either side.

Let me put it this way:

Imagine a sensible person, who knows a bit of and likes perfect tools, but is not a real expert in pocket knives and has never heard that a slightly off centered blade is a sign of "lesser quality" or an issue at all :
Now what would this person probably instinctively and based on common sense do when checking the knife?

- Lock up:Solid; Blade does not wiggle when locked
- Screws: Tight
- Action: Smooth

Perhaps then:
- Edge: Even; Knife sharp
- Scales : No chips or dents
- Blade: No scratches

And then perhaps
- Blade in the scales when knife is closed: Perfectly done, sits between the scales without touching either left or right

Do you really think a slight deviation to the left or right, just perceivable cause the scales give such close reference points, and not at all in the open position, would be an issue by any means for such a person? When the blade sits perfectly between the scales anyway, just not 100% symmetrical?

Honestly, and of course just my opinion: I think the "perfect blade centering" as a thing at all is something that just came up someday and developed a life of its own and spreaded as a "thing" that is of relevance mainly through the internet...

The point is I have to see it. Same tile analogy but you live alone and you're a hermit, nobody else will ever see it. Would you live with it when you know you don't necessarily have to?

Maybe you're thinking about ones that are ever so slightly off center, and maybe I'm thinking of ones that are more extreme?

We all have our hangups. Every time I see someone complain about an uneven factory bevel I cringe because to me that matters a lot less because I can easily fix it, but I'm constantly reminding myself that details like that matter a lot to collectors, and not everyone is ok with having to do a reprofile job on a new knife. If you had asked me this question 10 years ago when my average knife purchase was around $60 my answer would probably be a little more forgiving. Like I said, expectations increase along with cost, and cost keeps rising.

[bearfacedkiller]

I don’t lose any sleep over it but I agree with those who say that these are premium tools that we are paying a premium price for. I don’t think that it is unreasonable to expect a centered blade once you get over a certain price.

Also, collectability is a huge part of the knife hobby and collectibles need to be in as close to perfect shape as possible.

[JRinFL]

I don’t lose any sleep over it but I agree with those who say that these are premium tools that we are paying a premium price for. I don’t think that it is unreasonable to expect a centered blade once you get over a certain price.

Also, collectability is a huge part of the knife hobby and collectibles need to be in as close to perfect shape as possible.

I think it is the price point where the real hang up is. No one agrees at which price point you accept it at which price point it becomes unacceptable.

[Wartstein]

I don’t lose any sleep over it but I agree with those who say that these are premium tools that we are paying a premium price for. I don’t think that it is unreasonable to expect a centered blade once you get over a certain price.

Also, collectability is a huge part of the knife hobby and collectibles need to be in as close to perfect shape as possible.

I think it is the price point where the real hang up is. No one agrees at which price point you accept it at which price point it becomes unacceptable.

It really shows while we are all similar in our general passion for knives how different we still are in certain areas (and that´s good! Would be a pretty boring discussion forum otherwise... :rolleyes: ):

100% honestly: I really would not mind a slightly off centered blade even in a 400 USD Spydie (or, to be precise: I would somehow if I was not totally sure I´d keep it, but solely cause I am aware that an expensive, but "off centered" knife is harder to sell).

But, as David said, perhaps we´re still talking about different "kinds" of off centered?
What I mean: Not rubbing the scales / no impact on functionality or longevity

[JRinFL]

I don’t lose any sleep over it but I agree with those who say that these are premium tools that we are paying a premium price for. I don’t think that it is unreasonable to expect a centered blade once you get over a certain price.

Also, collectability is a huge part of the knife hobby and collectibles need to be in as close to perfect shape as possible.

I think it is the price point where the real hang up is. No one agrees at which price point you accept it at which price point it becomes unacceptable.

It really shows while we are all similar in our general passion for knives how different we still are in certain areas (and that´s good! Would be a pretty boring discussion forum otherwise... :rolleyes: ):

100% honestly: I really would not mind a slightly off centered blade even in a 400 USD Spydie (or, to be precise: I would somehow if I was not totally sure I´d keep it, but solely cause I am aware that an expensive, but "off centered" knife is harder to sell).

But, as David said, perhaps we´re still talking about different "kinds" of off centered?
What I mean: Not rubbing the scales / no impact on functionality or longevity

I think you and I are very close in thought regarding this issue. I also realize many (most?) take a harder line on the blade centering issue.

[vivi]

I have a Military with a slightly off center blade with perfect lock-up and smooth action.

I had another mid to large sized liner lock folder from another company with a perfectly centered blade that I could fold shut like a slipjoint with my off hand. I mailed it to them and they returned it in the same condition, finding no fault with it.

One of these things is critical to me, while the other is not.

[blues]

If I weren't interested in the precision of the build nor the aesthetics, I'd just use a box opener or a cheap production knife for most all of my tasks. They're easy to keep sharp and they're disposable.

A certain price point implies a certain level of quality in both the materials and the build. IMHO.

Sure. But is 100% blade centering really a criteria for build quality? Honest question, and no "right or wrong" most likely.
But still: For me is not.

100%...no. I've yet to see a perfect knife...custom or production. But I have some that are pretty darn close.

It's a pretty quick process for me to determine whether or not a knife I purchased represents money well spent.

I know it when I see it...(feel it, manipulate it).

"Centering" is only one part of the evaluation and equation.

[anycal]

If I weren't interested in the precision of the build nor the aesthetics, I'd just use a box opener or a cheap production knife for most all of my tasks. They're easy to keep sharp and they're disposable.

A certain price point implies a certain level of quality in both the materials and the build. IMHO.

Sure. But is 100% blade centering really a criteria for build quality? Honest question, and no "right or wrong" most likely.
But still: For me is not.

Symmetry is a beautiful thing. It is highly desired. It probably has some evolutionary advantages.

If given the option to chose between two knives, and all else being equal, I would guess all of us would go for the centered knife.

Look, you value 2mm more blade length, 0.5mm less blade stock thickness, fraction of an inch thinner behind the edge, tip strength for which, we can argue, there doesn't appear to be scientific evidence. And unless you are a professional or competitive cutter, attributes which most would not notice in their daily folder use. None of them have anything to do with build quality, but as much as you reference them, they are obviously important to you.

As lot of our knives are at that $200 price point, expecting blade centering shouldn't be controversial.

Most of my Spyderco knives are perfectly centered, by my definition. Which means it is achievable. Today.

[The Meat man]

Those who have worked in manufacturing know that tolerances are applied to all dimensions on an engineering print. It's bad engineering to apply super precise tolerances to every dimension of every part.

Tell that to Chris Reeve.

[Wartstein]

Symmetry is a beautiful thing. It is highly desired. It probably has some evolutionary advantages.

If given the option to chose between two knives, and all else being equal, I would guess all of us would go for the centered knife.

Look, you value 2mm more blade length, 0.5mm less blade stock thickness, fraction of an inch thinner behind the edge, tip strength for which, we can argue, there doesn't appear to be scientific evidence. And unless you are a professional or competitive cutter, attributes which most would not notice in their daily folder use. None of them have anything to do with build quality, but as much as you reference them, they are obviously important to you.

As lot of our knives are at that $200 price point, expecting blade centering shouldn't be controversial.

Most of my Spyderco knives are perfectly centered, by my definition. Which means it is achievable. Today.

Yes, I do value all of these things. Just like most on this forum - as people who love knives - came to look into very details concerning their preferences.
BUT: ALL the things you listed have a fundamental difference to "blade centering":

They are NOT (for me) parameters for more or less quality but just particular data points on neutral scales.

For example: I happen to LIKE thinner 3mm bladestock more than 3.5 mm, BUT I DON`T see this as a parameter for quality, I do not even think 3mm is generally BETTER, but just what I prefer and it has objectively seen pros AND cons, just like 3.5 mm stock has.

Differently to the above: Blade centering is NOT measured as data points on a scale which all have their specific pros and cons. So here it is NOT as if one would prefer a blade more to the right and one a blade more to the left cause both data points would have their specific pros and cons...

Blade centering for whatever reason is unilaterally seen as better "quality" when more parallel to the scales, and less "quality" when a bit closer to one scale (again, without touching it or having any impact on function and longevity)

And I totally respect if people put high value aesthetic-wise on perfect blade centering!
I just can´t really replicate this for me, since it is totally irrelevant and again, so slight that it even only can be seen because the scales happen to be so close to the blade as reference points.

I am pretty sure: Most on this forum (not all!!) would not even think of or look for perfect "blade centering" if not for whatever reason the "internet" imperceptibly had suggested our brains that this would be a sign of quality.
"Perfect" and "perfect knife making" for me is a blade "perfectly" put between the scales, so that it sits in there with at least just enough spare space to the left and right.

/ Sidenote and just out of interest: Why do you think there is "no scientific evidence for tip strength" - ?!
Of course, and just by geometry, for example the exact same tip will get stronger if you drop the spine in the tip area, so that the angle gets more obtuse when looked at the tip sideways on the flat of the blade.
This is the reason why Sal did exactly this with the less pointy Endura and Delica 4 models.

[Edited for hopefully more clarity. But this is hard for a non native speaker in English... :o ]

[TenGrainBread]

Those who have worked in manufacturing know that tolerances are applied to all dimensions on an engineering print. It's bad engineering to apply super precise tolerances to every dimension of every part.

Tell that to Chris Reeve.

Like I said, if aesthetics and symmetry are "critical" requirements of your product, then you designate the tolerances based on that. I think with CRK the aesthetics are a lot more important to the consumer experience than with Spyderco. As far as ergonomics and cutting performance goes, there isn't one Spyderco I own that I'd give up for a Sebenza, cheap or expensive. But you buy the Sebenza for the machining, etching, anodizing, etc..., not because it has the best ergonomics or an interesting blade.

[The Meat man]

Blade centering on the other hand is not measured as data points on a scale, where one prefers a more centered and one a less centered, cause both have their particular pros and cons.

What are the pros to an off-center blade? Or the cons to a perfectly centered one?

Or am I misunderstanding your statement ?

[The Meat man]

Those who have worked in manufacturing know that tolerances are applied to all dimensions on an engineering print. It's bad engineering to apply super precise tolerances to every dimension of every part.

Tell that to Chris Reeve.

Like I said, if aesthetics and symmetry are "critical" requirements of your product, then you designate the tolerances based on that. I think with CRK the aesthetics are a lot more important to the consumer experience than with Spyderco. As far as ergonomics and cutting performance goes, there isn't one Spyderco I own that I'd give up for a Sebenza, cheap or expensive. But you buy the Sebenza for the machining, etching, anodizing, etc..., not because it has the best ergonomics or an interesting blade.

I won't argue with that, but it doesn't mean that aesthetics have no importance with Spyderco knives.
What we're taking about here is essentially people's personal preferences, and that is very subjective.
So I think Wartstein's question about why some people care about something he doesn't care about is sort of an unanswerable question, ultimately.

[Wartstein]

Blade centering on the other hand is not measured as data points on a scale, where one prefers a more centered and one a less centered, cause both have their particular pros and cons.

What are the pros to an off-center blade? Or the cons to a perfectly centered one?

Or am I misunderstanding your statement ?

You misunderstood!

I wrote: [In contrary to things like blade length, blade stock..] blade centering is NOT measured as data points...where one prefers a more centered and one a less centered blade cause both have their pros and cons...

But probably this is very unclear said due to my imperfect english and I should edit it a bit

[The Meat man]

Blade centering on the other hand is not measured as data points on a scale, where one prefers a more centered and one a less centered, cause both have their particular pros and cons.

What are the pros to an off-center blade? Or the cons to a perfectly centered one?

Or am I misunderstanding your statement ?

You misunderstood!

I wrote: [In contrary to things like blade length, blade stock..] blade centering is NOT measured as data points...where one prefers a more centered and one a less centered blade cause both have their pros and cons...

But probably this is very unclear said due to my imperfect english and I should edit it a bit

My apologies. :)