Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

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Wartstein
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#81

Post by Wartstein »

The Meat man wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:39 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:36 pm
The Meat man wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:30 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:06 pm

You misunderstood! ;)

I wrote: [In contrary to things like blade length, blade stock..] blade centering is NOT measured as data points...where one prefers a more centered and one a less centered blade cause both have their pros and cons...

But probably this is very unclear said due to my imperfect english and I should edit it a bit
My apologies. :)

MY apologies, mate! I try my best, believe me, but my English does have its limits... :o
In German I probably could say what I mean with 1/3 of the words and still 3 times more clear... :p
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#82

Post by anycal »

Wartstein wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:06 pm
anycal wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:31 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:07 pm
blues wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:52 am

Symmetry is a beautiful thing. It is highly desired. It probably has some evolutionary advantages.

If given the option to chose between two knives, and all else being equal, I would guess all of us would go for the centered knife.

Look, you value 2mm more blade length, 0.5mm less blade stock thickness, fraction of an inch thinner behind the edge, tip strength for which, we can argue, there doesn't appear to be scientific evidence. And unless you are a professional or competitive cutter, attributes which most would not notice in their daily folder use. None of them have anything to do with build quality, but as much as you reference them, they are obviously important to you.

As lot of our knives are at that $200 price point, expecting blade centering shouldn't be controversial.

Most of my Spyderco knives are perfectly centered, by my definition. Which means it is achievable. Today.

Yes, I do value all of these things. Just like most on this forum - as people who love knives - came to look into very details concerning their preferences.
BUT: ALL the things you listed have a fundamental difference to "blade centering":

They are NOT (for me) parameters for more or less quality but just particular data points on neutral scales.

For example: I happen to LIKE thinner 3mm bladestock more than 3.5 mm, BUT I DON`T see this as a parameter for quality, I do not even think 3mm is generally BETTER, but just what I prefer and it has objectively seen pros AND cons, just like 3.5 mm stock has.

Differently to the above: Blade centering is NOT measured as data points on a scale which all have their specific pros and cons. So here it is NOT as if one would prefer a blade more to the right and one a blade more to the left cause both data points would have their specific pros and cons...

Blade centering for whatever reason is unilaterally seen as better "quality" when more parallel to the scales, and less "quality" when a bit closer to one scale (again, without touching it or having any impact on function and longevity)

And I totally respect if people put high value aesthetic-wise on perfect blade centering!
I just can´t really replicate this for me, since it is totally irrelevant and again, so slight that it even only can be seen because the scales happen to be so close to the blade as reference points.

I am pretty sure: Most on this forum (not all!!) would not even think of or look for perfect "blade centering" if not for whatever reason the "internet" imperceptibly had suggested our brains that this would be a sign of quality.
"Perfect" and "perfect knife making" for me is a blade "perfectly" put between the scales, so that it sits in there with at least just enough spare space to the left and right.

/ Sidenote and just out of interest: Why do you think there is "no scientific evidence for tip strength" - ?!
Of course, and just by geometry, for example the exact same tip will get stronger if you drop the spine in the tip area, so that the angle gets more obtuse when looked at the tip sideways on the flat of the blade.
This is the reason why Sal did exactly this with the less pointy Endura and Delica 4 models.

[Edited for hopefully more clarity. But this is hard for a non native speaker in English... :o ]

It is about what is important to people. Not everyone uses their knives the same way, has the same requirements, or thinks the same way.

Your original post was trying to understand 'why should someone...' My point and example was, because it is important to them.

The tip issue we already discussed at some point. All else being equal, yes, drop point has more material than the exact same undropped point. However, you frequently compare different knives, with different tip geometries and thicknesses, and asserting that one is stronger just because it is drop point. Which part of the tip? The bevel? The first 2mm? 3mm? 5mm? The two I can recall you compared were Military/Endura, Sage/Para3. Where is the science; a controlled test? I broke a tip on a Manix, but not on a PM2. So a PM2 obviously has a stronger tip. Maybe it does, I don't know.
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#83

Post by Wartstein »

anycal wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:56 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:06 pm
anycal wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:31 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:07 pm


It is about what is important to people. Not everyone uses their knives the same way, has the same requirements, or thinks the same way.

Your original post was trying to understand 'why should someone...' My point and example was, because it is important to them.

The tip issue we already discussed at some point. All else being equal, yes, drop point has more material than the exact same undropped point. However, you frequently compare different knives, with different tip geometries and thicknesses, and asserting that one is stronger just because it is drop point. Which part of the tip? The bevel? The first 2mm? 3mm? 5mm? The two I can recall you compared were Military/Endura, Sage/Para3. Where is the science; a controlled test? I broke a tip on a Manix, but not on a PM2. So a PM2 obviously has a stronger tip. Maybe it does, I don't know.
You are right, this was my question! And thanks for taking time and effort to reply in such detail! :)

/ I don´t do this really "frequently" and always say in such tip comparisons "presumably stronger/weaker" tips (or something along those lines) or, to be correct, certainly do forget that in rare occasions.
Actually, it is one of my main guidelines on this forum to always make clear if I KNOW something for certain from own experience (so for example: "The Native has a thicker handle than the Chap") or just read or assume something or have no clue and just figure. (But since I post a lot: Absolutely seen (not relatively) I still forget it sometimes for sure!)

And you are 100% right: Concerning Millie vs Endura or Sage vsPara 3 tip strength exist no even remotely scientific tests I´d be aware of.
Concerning Millie and Endura: I had both and could really feel that the Millie tip is finer (but, YES, you are right, not even "what is the tip, where does it end" is defined here), and I have read and heard several times that people snapped Millie tips but never anything like this with Endura tips.
BUT: Both not scientific at all and proves of course nothing! :) Could still be the other way round either.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#84

Post by gundamaniac »

My take on this is that Spyderco has many models that seem to me to be more geared towards using than as aesthetic/design/machining showpieces. For the working models, as long as the blade doesn't rub, I'd be happy. The "fancier" the knife gets though, the more I expect from the aesthetics, of which centering is one aspect. So on a Delica or a PM2, I probably wouldn't be concerned about it. On something like a Paysan or Drunken, I'd be paying attention to it.
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#85

Post by Cambertree »

Evil D wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:19 pm
You pay to have your kitchen floor tiled and this is what you get. It doesn't effect performance one bit and it's purely cosmetic. Are you ok with this or would you complain?

Image
Hmmm...how’s the heat treat on those tiles, D? :D :p :)
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#86

Post by Cl1ff »

Wartstein, I want to thank you for beginning this thread! It’s very illuminating to read many of the responses to your query and I’ve learned a lot from it.
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#87

Post by Wartstein »

Cl1ff wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:33 pm
Wartstein, I want to thank you for beginning this thread! It’s very illuminating to read many of the responses to your query and I’ve learned a lot from it.

You´re welcome, but the kudos go to all the folks who took the time to share their thoughts in such detail! :)
Would not have thought that this topic would get that much and thought through replies in such a short time and I appreciate it.

What is interesting to me is not really or lets say more than the actual topic itself:
Minimal deviations of the blade in the scales barely seen as that is really such a small detail, that it is almost a bit weird to discuss it in such detail and almost with passion, even for folks like us on this forum... ;)

But it sheds a bit of light on an interesting broader picture in various aspects:
- How much do "looks" really matter to all of us, even if we think we are mainly about the Syderco "form follows function" approach?
- How has the approach to folders probably changed from our anchestors, who might have only one but use it much more often than many do nowadays, and what would they have said if someone told them that "perfect centering" would be a thing in the future
- Does "symmetry" always have to be the most "perfect" or "beautiful" approach in tools for human beings?
- What do internet and social media perhaps contribute without that we realize it to what we value as important?
- Do we (all of us!) maybe perhaps automatically assume something is "important" or a sign of quality without actually ever really thought about it ourselves?
- How really weird and actually really not important in the grand scheme, but
on the other hand just making our lives richer in being passionate and deeply interested in small details of a tool is what we are doing here? :D
- And so on... ;)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#88

Post by Wartstein »

Cambertree wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:53 pm
Evil D wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:19 pm
You pay to have your kitchen floor tiled and this is what you get. It doesn't effect performance one bit and it's purely cosmetic. Are you ok with this or would you complain?
Hmmm...how’s the heat treat on those tiles, D? :D :p :)

Excactly. We haven´t heard anything yet about if they perhaps sacrifice too much toughness for being hard!
As a total expert I assume they could even be a bit brittle?! ;)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#89

Post by kobold »

Because symmetry is beautiful.
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#90

Post by Wartstein »

kobold wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:35 am
Because symmetry is beautiful.

Yes, it certainly is! And as Anycal pointed out to me (thanks again for that!) this was actually my question: "Why are many people concerned with perfect blade centering" and just appreciating symmetry is a percfectly valid and respectable reason!

But the interesting thing is: This is not true for everyone. I honestly appreciate slight deviations, that make a knife more unique and personal. I like craftmanship that makes a thing perfectly right and functional, but does not got into (for me!!!) "unnecessary" and "petty" details. A blade that fits perfectly inside the scales as it should without rubbing one side IS perfect for me.

Plus, I still wonder how many "symmetry" people really would have the idea to check for perfect blade centering if they would not have "learned" that this IS indeed something to look for. I don´t know.

/ Anyway, I hope that this will not deviate in a "who´s right or wrong" thing (it has not so far! :) ).
But just as an interesting discussion how different people are, feel and see things, probably beyond just knives..., ;)

Again, thanks for all your contributions, folks! :)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#91

Post by w3tnz »

As to the form vs function, tool vs toy argument, sorry but if the blade isn’t centred then there’s something actually wrong causing it, either at the pivot, tang or worse the blade itself warped or ground unevenly etc.

Of course the knife still “functions” and the performance would not be impacted in a meaningful way, however it is still not right or not as good as it should be.

Cost vs expectations is purely personal and everyone has different standards but it’s not unreasonable to expect a new knife of this caliber to come without defects visual or functional.

For the record I’ve not had any spyderco in memory where the blade was not well centred or couldn’t be adjusted so Im not complaining, but I do expect that the blade looks centre, if not then I start to think why?
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#92

Post by Cambertree »

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:35 am
Cambertree wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:53 pm
Hmmm...how’s the heat treat on those tiles, D? :D :p :)
Excactly. We haven´t heard anything yet about if they perhaps sacrifice too much toughness for being hard!
As a total expert I assume they could even be a bit brittle?! ;)
Haha, yeah, I think I want to see some micrographs before forming an opinion! :D :p

I guess you could always pull up that random tile and use it for a sharpening stone! :D ;)

I have a few knives from the ‘Golden Age’ of Sheffield production (~1890-1930), and I’ve examined quite a few more from that period by English, French and German makers in other people’s collections and museums. I can confirm that blade centring certainly wasn’t a thing back then, even in high quality pieces.

Although, as mentioned, it’s possible that some of them have suffered some dimensional change and blade warping from retained austenite conversion in the decades since they were made.

But it’s an interesting thing to consider, that back in the day, when it was expected that nearly all knives sold would be used and eventually sharpened down to toothpicks, or otherwise worn out, it doesn’t seem to have been an issue that the makers or users were even conscious of as a desirable trait.

If people choose to focus on it now, and it makes knifemakers design and build their knives to a higher standard, then that’s a good thing, I suppose.

But sometimes I think it’s possible to focus on some qualities to the detriment of others.

As an example, I have a knife which was a forum knife made with collective input from a whole bunch of knife knuts, mainly collectors.

The materials are excellent, it looks really cool, the bladesteel is a ‘premium’ PM stainless which was popular then. Blade centring is pretty close to perfect to the naked eye.

The heat treat is possibly sub optimal, but still ok.

But behind the edge it’s so ridiculously thick and the edge is so obtuse that it’s a very poor cutter.

It took a lot of thinning out by hand on benchstones to get it into a state where it could function as a serviceable cutting tool, and any Opinel would still run rings around it.

I suppose a lot of those knives still reside in safes and the owners are none the wiser.

But I guess that’s an extreme example of what I would regard as some curiously misaligned priorities...
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#93

Post by JRinFL »

kobold wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:35 am
Because symmetry is beautiful.
Kobold is correct. Humans are hardwired when it comes to symmetry. Just do a quick web search on "symmetry & beauty". Lots of research on the subject.
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#94

Post by JRinFL »

Cambertree wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:56 am

But sometimes I think it’s possible to focus on some qualities to the detriment of others.


This really bears repeating. It is so often overlooked in so many facets of life, not just in the cutlery world.
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#95

Post by LC Kid »

Hi Folks!


If a knife is a 100% functional but has a little bit off centered blade I don’t see a problem there :)

If the off centered blade rubs a liner well, you don’t have to be a genius to realize it was really poorly made...

At the end of the day it’s undoubtedly a Quality thing. If a brand that has been around for a long time can’t even present a ‘Quality Made’ product how come it is gonna ask for a 3 figures (or even more) price tag? :rolleyes:
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#96

Post by Albertaboyscott »

It bothers me when not centered. Im a cabinetmaker so I'm very detail oriented. An uncentered blade to me is the difference between a good knife and a great one. My s110 milli won't stay centered after adjusting and ticks me off. Still a great knife though.
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#97

Post by Wartstein »

LC Kid wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:01 pm
Hi Folks!


If a knife is a 100% functional but has a little bit off centered blade I don’t see a problem there :)

If the off centered blade rubs a liner well, you don’t have to be a genius to realize it was really poorly made...

At the end of the day it’s undoubtedly a Quality thing. If a brand that has been around for a long time can’t even present a ‘Quality Made’ product how come it is gonna ask for a 3 figures (or even more) price tag? :rolleyes:
Don´t know to which of the two kinds of off-center you mentioned you are referring to.
- For me it is of course a quality thing to make sure that the blade does not rub a liner!
- But: To go that much into detail that a production knife brand like Spyderco (especially when (luckily!) extremely oriented towards function) would make sure that the tip of each knife sits between the liners with the same distance to both would be a really bad idea imho.
I mean, again, that does not matter AT ALL functionally. Is actually a really minor deviation, only to be seen due to the very special situation that the liners are so close to the blade. And: Would unnecessarily take production time,make the prices higher and so on. For what?!
The 3 figure price tags of many Spydies are totally justified for different reasons imho: For example the "perfection of efficiency" in many aspects. And one is: Perfectly efficient is, to put a blade perfectly functional between the two liners. When that is achieved: Move on. Safe time and money. Give the customers an extremely functional and perfectly solid built tool for perhaps a few bucks less as it would cost if each and every blade had to be made perfectly centered.

My 2 c ;)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#98

Post by Cricket Bite »

I have a Para 3 with the blade centering off. Not rubbing but for sure off. It does bother me when I think about it but in use it does not affect it in any way and I usually forget about it anyways. When paying over $100 for any knife I do expect things like this not to be present. Sue it does not affect functionality but is that the ONLY reason most of use or many people are buying $100+ knives??? If you bought a new car and the paint job had drips all over it would it bother you? It does not affect the functionality of the car and can be fixed relatively cheap compared to the price of a new car so should we be concerned? I think it is great if this does not bother you and more power to you but it is totally understandable for those who it does bother.
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#99

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

So at what price point does an off center blade start being okay?
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Re: Why are so many people concerned with perfect blade centering?

#100

Post by TkoK83Spy »

chuck_roxas45 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:07 pm
So at what price point does an off center blade start being okay?
I participated in the first page of the thread then unsubscribed because I thought a lot of the same answers would be said over and over again, but this thing got DEEP! I just spent a good hour reading through it, and your question is a valid one. A lot has been said about pricing and expectations, but where do you draw the line to where it's acceptable or not really a big deal?

My seconds sale Maxamet PM2 is warped and close to touching the scale...but it still cuts and performs like a knife should. Now, I did only pay $78 for it think it was?? Had it been purchased for the $200+ tag that they typically sell, then yes I'd be upset and likely try to send it back. I know we're all different and buy our knives for different reasons. I'm a user and though I wouldn't be happy with that experience, the knife still does what it's supposed to...it cuts, it locks up solid and the action is just fine with no rubbing. I don't think there's any one answer here, but the price point of what's acceptable and what's not definitely interests me here!
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