Re: SE H1 vs SE LC200N (NOT by Wartstein, OP seems to be gone)

[Zive]

During his appearance in BHQ’s video announcing the latest New Product Reveal Eric mentioned that PE LC200N has greater edge retention than PE H1, but H1 will outcut LC200N when both steels are serrated.

I recall reading that SE H1 has one of the higher CATRA scores that Spyderco has seen, while PE H1 scores significantly lower in testing.

I’m wondering if someone with more metallurgical knowledge could explain why serrating H1 improves edge retention but the same is not true for LC200N.

Thanks![/img][/img]

Edit: Clarified Eric's statement

[Wartstein]

Good question!

I am not an expert, let alone metalurgist, and still don´t 100% understand the "H1 mysterie"

Clear is: It is "work hardening" at the edge, that makes H1 hard(er).

So I am pretty sure that the amount / the impact of that work hardening is increased when grinding serrations into H1 compared to "just" grinding a PE H1 blade (cause obviously serrated H1 holds an edge longer over plain H1 than it is the case with other steels (as far as I know and experienced SE always has more edge retention than PE in the same steel, but even more so in H1)).

With LC200N that work hardening comes not into play like on H1, and so giving LC "teeth" has not the additional hardening effect as with H1

I know, not really an explanation, but the bit I can contribute... :o but there are threads on this to find if you search.
Here is one on work hardening on H1 in general (not specifically for SE) with two interesting comments by Sal on the first page:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72555

[Larrin]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

[Wartstein]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

No, he actually did say that in SE H1 stays sharp longer than LC, but in PE it is the other way round.
See here https://youtu.be/0c_D_A4ho5Q staring at about 2:00 to 2:30

But H1 keeps confusing me: There is also Sals statement along the lines that serrated H1 was one of the hardest steels at the edge they ever measured (if not even THE hardest)?

[Josh Crutchley]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

No, he actually did say that in SE H1 stays sharp longer than LC, but in PE it is the other way round.
See here https://youtu.be/0c_D_A4ho5Q staring at about 2:00 to 2:30

But H1 keeps confusing me: There is also Sals statement along the lines that serrated H1 was one of the hardest steels at the edge they ever measured (if not even THE hardest)?

It sounded like he was saying H1 improves more with Se than Lc200n. He said H1 SE>Lc200n SE and H1 PE<Lc200n PE. That doesn't mean Lc200n SE<Lc200n PE.

[Evil D]

I think my next purchase is going to be a SE Jumpmaster. Apparently it's the king of edge retention, I think I have to find out.

[Josh Crutchley]

I think my next purchase is going to be a SE Jumpmaster. Apparently it's the king of edge retention, I think I have to find out.

Yeah I'm wanting to try H1 SE for myself. I have my eyes set on the Fish Hunter.

[Wartstein]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

No, he actually did say that in SE H1 stays sharp longer than LC, but in PE it is the other way round.
See here https://youtu.be/0c_D_A4ho5Q staring at about 2:00 to 2:30

But H1 keeps confusing me: There is also Sals statement along the lines that serrated H1 was one of the hardest steels at the edge they ever measured (if not even THE hardest)?

It sounded like he was saying H1 improves more with Se than Lc200n. He said H1 SE>Lc200n SE and H1 PE<Lc200n PE. That doesn't mean Lc200n SE<Lc200n PE.

? Sure it does not mean that LC200N SE is < than LC200N in PE in edge retention, since SE pretty much always has more edge retention than PE in the same steel?

Edit: I see what you´re referring to! The OP suggested indeed that Eric said LC in SE would not have higher edge retention than in PE.
Right, this is not what he said but rather like how I put it in my previous post (quote) " SE H1 stays sharp longer than SE LC, but in PE it is the other way round" (so: in PE LC stays sharp longer than H1)

[Evil D]

I think my next purchase is going to be a SE Jumpmaster. Apparently it's the king of edge retention, I think I have to find out.

Yeah I'm wanting to try H1 SE for myself. I have my eyes set on the Fish Hunter.

I have lots of SE/H1 and I can confirm it is a great combo, but in particular the Jumpmaster is supposed to be the highest edge retention steel/edge combo they've ever tested according to Sal in this thread on Blade Forums.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/h1- ... t-17014780

Hi Mora,

H1 is not heat treated in the traditional way. The steel is work hardened in the manufacturing and processing of blades. Edge retention in the plain edge config would be about the steels that you listed. It does sharpen easily, and gets very sharp. In the serrated config, it will stay sharper longer than anything we've tested to date.

sal

In most cases for me edge retention is a moot point with serrations because I never let them get more dull than a day or two of use, but it'll be a fun thing to test out.

[Josh Crutchley]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

Do you know if the extra edge length from serrations are factored into Catra? Does the length of blade tested change from SE to PE?

[Zive]

@Warnstein, thanks for the explanation and invaluable link. Not sure if it's relevant here, but interesting to know that H1 is not heat treated. I wonder if LC200N is or not...

@ Evil D I picked up a jumpmaster last year. The ergos are amazing and it cuts like a small chainsaw. Very impressive performer every time I've reached for it. I think you'd really enjoy it.

Cheers!

[vivi]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

The difference between PE H1 and SE H1 edge retention is greater than the edge retention difference in other steels compared in each edge type. There is a wider disparity between PE H1 and SE H1 than say, PE VG10 and SE VG10.

[Zive]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

The difference between PE H1 and SE H1 edge retention is greater than the edge retention difference in other steels compared in each edge type. There is a wider disparity between PE H1 and SE H1 than say, PE VG10 and SE VG10.

Thanks Vivi, I was struggling with phrasing my question. You've hit the nail on the head. Was wondering if someone could explain why (aside from the obvious increase in cutting edge) the serrations confer such a benefit for H1, but not so much for LC200N.

[Bill1170]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

The difference between PE H1 and SE H1 edge retention is greater than the edge retention difference in other steels compared in each edge type. There is a wider disparity between PE H1 and SE H1 than say, PE VG10 and SE VG10.

This is my understanding, as well.

[Ric]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

The difference between PE H1 and SE H1 edge retention is greater than the edge retention difference in other steels compared in each edge type. There is a wider disparity between PE H1 and SE H1 than say, PE VG10 and SE VG10.

This is my understanding, as well.

SE are grinded thinner. That might also help.

The wider disparity of H1 is because H1 PE is sooo soft. I sharpened it with the brown rod and afterwards the rod was silver.

[Wartstein]

SE are grinded thinner. That might also help.

The wider disparity of H1 is because H1 PE is sooo soft. I sharpened it with the brown rod and afterwards the rod was silver.

Certainly true that H1 PE is rather soft (I never had it in PE though) - but does that explain ALL of the disparity to H1 SE?
Again, I am always a bit puzzled here... what about the Sal statement that H1 SE is (one of?) the best edge retention steels they ever tested (and NOT only compared to H1 in PE)?! :confused:

[Doc Dan]

I do not have any LC200N to compare to H1. I wonder if H1 SE will really be significantly better at edge retention than SE LC200N? I am skeptical. LC200N has better edge retention going in and then when the serrations are added it should make it that much better. I do not think work hardening comes from adding the serrations to H1. Maybe a little, but I think it mostly comes from the process of making the steel into knife blades.

[Doc Dan]

Any steel has better slicing edge retention while serrated than with a plain edge. Maybe Eric was saying something else.

Dr. Larrin, is the work hardening of H1 in the grinding of the serrations or in the manufacturing process? I always understood the later and not the former.

[Larrin]

The only serrated blade I tested was VG10 and it didn't dull during the 200 cut test (it's longer for serrated testing). So I don't know how H1 would do better than perfect. Either the H1 tested had the thinnest serrated edge they had ever put on the machine or they were comparing the increase in performance relative to plain edge.

[Haunted House]

@Larrin,
Can you explain how LC200N can have better edge retention than H1 in plain edge but not serrated?

What’s the science behind that?